The Law or not the Law that is the question?

[Brother-Paul]

I have prayed about this subject over the last week, whether to add it to the forum or whether not to. I feel in my heart that I should and welcome replies and comments from our brothers and sisters in Christ. Please quote scripture with your comments for each post submitted. Please include as many scriptures as you think relate to whether the Law is or isn't applicable today, not just a select few.

Is the Law, Torah, Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, relevant to Christian's today?

Is the Law applicable to every believer and follower of Christ, or are we free from the Law?

Lets have fun with this remembering as born again believers that we are brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Let us share our thoughts and our understanding of scripture, using scripture, Old and New Testament. May the Spirit of God guide our hearts and minds, may the peace of God be with us, in Jesus Name.

 

[amadeus2]

Did not Jesus continuously relate to it and quote from those sources? For example:

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matt 4:4

Was he not quoting from this verse?

"And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." Deut 8:3

Was not Jesus who repeated quoted the OT not all of the Word of God in the flesh?

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" John 1:14

How could we then exclude from importance any part of that which Jesus is?

 

[B-A-C]

We are told over a dozen times in the New testament to keep the commandments.

Matt 5:19; Matt 19:17; John 14:15; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 Cor 7:19; 1 Jn 2:3-4
1 Jn 3:22-24; 1 Jn 5:3; Rev 12:17; Rev 14:12;

It may be that keeping the commandments isn't what saves us. But nonetheless, we are told to do it.
I notice they aren't called the 10 suggestions.

Jesus said when we make new converts, we should teach them to observe "all that I have commanded
you to do... Matt 28:20; also see Matt 5:18-19; Matt 7:24;

Part of what he taught as commands was in Mark 10:19; Mark 12:31; Luke 18:20;
Matt 5:21; Matt 5:27; Matt 5:33; Matt 5:34; Matt 15:4-6; Matt 19:19; Mark 7:10; there are more....

Now while keeping the commandments may not save us...
Disobeying some of them can apparently keep us out.
1 Cor 6:9-10; mentions fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, and thieves....
It says Do not be deceived ... these people will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 5:20-21; mentions envy and idolatry as well. It says these people will not inherit
the kingdom of God.

These are all things mentioned in the 10 commandments.

Some say... we aren't under the law anymore. Perhaps we aren't (there are conditions on that).
but even if we aren't, we are still told many places in the new testament to keep the commandments.
Even the often quoted Rom 6:14; is followed by verse 15... it answers the question... "shall we continue to
sin just because we are under grace"?

Gal 5:18; says... "If", if..if.. you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
But even if we aren't under the law.... does that mean we shouldn't try to keep the commandments?

 

[Dovegiven]

Probably most Christians still don't know what God thinks about sins. We can learn that from reading the Law,

What I learn from the first five books of the Bible is a general idea of holiness, being set apart, dedicated to, service to our holy God.
When studying it, I learn that the Law is a compilation of wisdom, though not all of it possibly things for anyone, including Jews, to possibly be fulfilled by man. The Temple is gone. Please read the chapter including
Romans 7:10-13 (KJV)
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

I have yet to regard a single precept of that ancient law to be evil. Paul declared all of it to be holy. So whatever part of it is brought to my attention is still active, to be acted upon. That, precept on precept, isn't something to be taught to everyone around me, yet isn't a concept for me to teach against.
Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

No Christian disciple of Christ should be found opposing any of the will of the Father God.
Upon learning what is the righteousness of Christ in God must be honored. That is His demand.

Simply believing Jesus was real is not enough. One must be converted to follow Christ and his way.

 

[Chyndal]

Well, to me , it is relevant , because, it affirms the three dispensations of God, that is in christianity. Now, those five books of law in the bible, is showing us, the Way things were in the dispensation of God the father.

 

[Brother-Paul]

We are told over a dozen times in the New testament to keep the commandments.

Matt 5:19; Matt 19:17; John 14:15; John 14:21; John 15:10; 1 Cor 7:19; 1 Jn 2:3-4
1 Jn 3:22-24; 1 Jn 5:3; Rev 12:17; Rev 14:12;

Amen

It may be that keeping the commandments isn't what saves us.

True, we Must be Born Again - John 3:3

But nonetheless, we are told to do it.
I notice they aren't called the 10 suggestions.

Excellent reply B-A-C... which brings us back that the first 5 books in our Bible 'are the Law' which was given by God to Moses.

But remaining open to discussion, is the Law applicable to Christians today, since Christ was on earth?

Jesus said when we make new converts, we should teach them to observe "all that I have commanded
you to do... Matt 28:20; also see Matt 5:18-19; Matt 7:24 -
Part of what he taught as commands was in Mark 10:19; Mark 12:31; Luke 18:20;
Matt 5:21; Matt 5:27; Matt 5:33; Matt 5:34; Matt 15:4-6; Matt 19:19; Mark 7:10; there are more....

Continuing with an open mind, does the Law apply to Christians today or not, those who believe we are 'free from the law' would exclude the Law, only accepting the New Testament teaching.

Now while keeping the commandments may not save us...
Disobeying some of them can apparently keep us out.
1 Cor 6:9-10; mentions fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, and thieves....
It says Do not be deceived ... these people will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 5:20-21; mentions envy and idolatry as well. It says these people will not inherit
the kingdom of God.

These are all things mentioned in the 10 commandments.

Thank you B-A-C

Some say... we aren't under the law anymore. Perhaps we aren't (there are conditions on that).
but even if we aren't, we are still told many places in the new testament to keep the commandments.
Even the often quoted Rom 6:14; is followed by verse 15... it answers the question... "shall we continue to
sin just because we are under grace"?

Gal 5:18; says... "If", if..if.. you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
But even if we aren't under the law.... does that mean we shouldn't try to keep the commandments?

Romans 6:14 is one of the often quoted scriptures

Romans 6:14 (NKJV)
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

But this is Paul speaking here not Jesus.

Another command verse I have heard for those who believe we are free from the Law is....

John 1:17 (NKJV)
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

If ever we see scripture that 'seems to say' something in one book, should we not look at what scripture says elsewhere, and most important what does Jesus say. Is this not why some believe as you kindly say..... Some say... we aren't under the law anymore.

Paul's discussion of sanctification follows the outline explaining that believers are free from 'sin's control'.
In context what Paul is addressing here I believe is 'sin's control'. The Law cannot stop us from sinning,
We are not under its system of requirements, the ceremonial laws that had to be meticulously kept.
We are not under the fear of failing the just standard of the law.

The word Law is used twenty-three times in this chapter, surely this has to say there is more here that taking or accepting just one verse.

Just adding the two verses prior to Romans 6:14 we can see clearly what Paul is saying... 'do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts'. Paul was as mentioned above discussing 'sin's control' here in comparing them with requirements of the ceremonial laws.

Romans 6:12-14 (NKJV)
12 Therefore do not let sin reign [control] in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not [control] have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Not under the Law but under Grace, only when we present ourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and our members [every part of us] are presented to Him as instruments of righteousness to God.]

The Law doesn't control our sins. We are all responsible for our sins. I feel that is Paul's message in Romans 6 although a more fuller picture can be seen when we read Romans chapters 5, 6 and 7.

Chapter 5 - Peace with God, and salvation from God’s wrath.
Chapter 6 - The control of sin and the way to God's Grace.
Chapter 7 - Sanctification and the Law.

Reading or accepting one verse is so often not enough.

Thank you B-A-C this is very helpful, let us all continue to look at other references to whether or not we are free from the law or not, in particular, what does Jesus Say?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Probably most Christians still don't know what God thinks about sins. We can learn that from reading the Law,

The question this would also raise is, do most Christians know what sin is. If they do not know what God thinks about sin and do not realise some of what they, do think and say, are sins then they do not know their destiny. That is a very dangerous place to be. There are so many in the world who think they go to heaven when they die, but for a believer to not know what God thinks about sin is frightening. We owe it to ourselves to know what sin is and what God thinks about sin.

What I learn from the first five books of the Bible is a general idea of holiness, being set apart, dedicated to, service to our holy God.
When studying it, I learn that the Law is a compilation of wisdom, though not all of it possibly things for anyone, including Jews, to possibly be fulfilled by man. The Temple is gone. Please read the chapter including

Romans 7:10-13 (KJV)
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

I have yet to regard a single precept of that ancient law to be evil. Paul declared all of it to be holy

Amen brother.

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

No Christian disciple of Christ should be found opposing any of the will of the Father God.
Upon learning what is the righteousness of Christ in God must be honored. That is His demand.

Simply believing Jesus was real is not enough. One must be converted to follow Christ and his way.

Thank you Dovegiven

What Jesus says regarding whether we are Free from the Law or not... is therefore summed up in the verses above... Matthew 5:17-20

The question remains...

For those who believe that we are 'Free from the Law' in the sense that the first 5 books in the Bible no longer apply to them, and the above statement from Jesus, not Paul, says, 'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.'

Then if a person thinks such, and continues to do what the 5 Books of the Law state we shouldn't, then they are committing sins against God, they are not obeying God nor are they truly following Christ.

Hopefully we all know the warnings. God hates sin, he loves the sinner but hates the sin, we should too but, no matter what the sin is, a sin is a sin, to God anything He or His Son Jesus Christ has told us is a sin, is exactly that, a Sin.

Paul tells us Romans 6:23 (NKJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do we not all owe it to ourselves to be sure we know what God classes as a sin?

It is certainly clear that Jesus considers the Law (First 5 Books of the Bible) are applicable to all Christians today.

Matthew 5:17-20 (CJB - Complete Jewish Bible)

17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.

18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.

19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

 

[Brother-Paul]

Well, to me , it is relevant , because, it affirms the three dispensations of God, that is in christianity. Now, those five books of law in the bible, is showing us, the Way things were in the dispensation of God the father.

Thank you for your post Chyndal, taking what Paul says in context, in Romans chapters 5,6 & 7 and even more importantly taking Jesus' instruction...

Matthew 6:17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.

The Law appears very relevant.

If we ignore what Jesus tells us about the Law we are ignoring God's commands, we are sinning!

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[KingJ]

People just don't understand 1. What the law was, 2. How Jesus fulfilled it and 3. What exactly grace is.

1. The law was how God interacted with His people OT. Many see it as the 'stoning' that followed adultery Lev 20:10. When it is also the long life that follows obedience Prov 3:1-3. Not simply the curse if you do not tithe Mal 3:9 but also the blessing if you do Mal 3:10. Obedience gets you the promised land of milk and honey. Disobedience, death in the desert.

The law represented therefore, God dealing with mankind on a promise basis. Much like I treat my helper. She works for pay. No work, no pay.

2. Jesus did not do away with the law. God of the universe taught from the OT in the synagogues. If He was upset with any scripture, the Pharisees would have been after Him a long while before He started calling Himself the Son of God John 5:18. We must grasp that He did not reject or disapprove of it. Noah = accurate because Jesus did not object. Creation story = accurate because Jesus did not object. God would not teach from a book that was untrue.

So now, when Jesus stopped the stoning of the woman caught in adultery John 8:1-11 what actually happened? Did He disagree with the sentence? Did Jesus say the law is wrong? No. Was Jesus fine with adultery, as we have all had the thoughts? No. Jesus said to her go and sin no more. So what happened? Jesus a. exposed hypocrisy, b. Showed hearts intent having meaning / Psalm 51:17 being a literal truth / actual / fulfilled law of God.

The Jews always had Psalm 51:17, but could never allow the persons heart condition to alter their punishment. Yet they still taught it, as the verse clearly applied to them escaping punishment with God. Jesus could say what He did, because He is God. Only Jesus could bring this change. Judged on heart and mind VS literal observable obedience.

Now just as Jesus brought a change on the ''curse'' of the law. He also brought a change on the '''sweet promises'' of the law. Now that we love Him from our hearts. We should be able to go to the promised land for Him even if it is the land of sand and mud John 16:33. Because we should know that we are obeying someone who we approve of. We can only love God if we approve of hating what is evil and clinging to what is good Rom 12:9. This common love binds us. It is what drives us to repent. It is what Jesus needs to come into our hearts Rev 3:20.

3. Grace is not in regards to escaping the curse of the law, ever. Just because a council of Jewish elders does not decide to stone us to death, does not mean God has any less of a fate envisioned for some of us. Grace is applicable entirely with respects to salvation. We don't need to earn our salvation. It is a free gift to those that love the Lord.

 

[Brother-Paul]

People just don't understand 1. What the law was, 2. How Jesus fulfilled it and 3. What exactly grace is.

Could this be because many do not read or study the Old Testament? They stick to the New Testament, some are selective also which parts they read or which part they want to accept.

Just considering those who consider themselves gay, homosexuals, they read Paul' s account that we are free from the Law and fail to read or accept Jesus' teaching. The two most common verses that Christians quote to them are

Leviticus 18:22 (NKJV)
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 (NKJV)
13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

They reject these verses based on they consider themselves Free from the Law, quoting Paul but failing to quote Jesus.

Matthew 5:17 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

But the Law, every part of it, including not accepting God, idolatry, stealing, murder, coveting, bearing false witness, lust or any form of sexual activity not with a married man and woman as husband and wife is SIN!

Anyone choosing to reject the commandments given to us from God through Moses in the Books of Law, and failing to accept Jesus teaching will pay a high price.

Romans 6:23 (NKJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 5:19-20 (NKJV)
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

1. The law was how God interacted with His people OT.

2. Jesus did not do away with the law.

3. Grace is not in regards to escaping the curse of the law, ever.

Amen, Amen, Amen brother

The Law, every part of the first 5 books in our Bible, which includes the Ten Commandments, still applies today, along with Jesus' teaching of the Law in the Gospels.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Matthew 5:19-20 (NKJV)
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 7:1 (NKJV)
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

 

[Brother-Paul]

What therefore is the Law?
In short the Law is God's command to all mankind, to the Jews first then to the Gentiles through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why does God give mankind the Law?
So that we will not sin!
So we will know what sin is and so that we can avoid sin.
So that we can come to God, through His one and only Son, the promised one, the Messiah, the Christ and be a Holy people.

What is the Law?
Every Command from God or through Jesus, starting with the first 5 Books in the Bible (Jews first) and
including Jesus' teaching and commands in the Gospels in the New Testament (to Gentiles).

Thank you everyone who has contributed to this thread, please feel free to add to anything above or discussed.

Scripture has confirmed very clearly
The Law, God's Commands, Jesus' Commands, including the first 5 Books in the Bible, are relevant to all mankind, Jews and Gentiles.

May the Lord open the eyes of our hearts, so that 'The Truth' in God's Holy Word, is revealed to us all.

Grace and Peace be with you always. In Jesus Name. Amen

 

[RJ]

The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)
If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)
The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)
Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)
There are many, many more!

 

[RJ]

Gal 5:18; says... "If", if..if.. you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
But even if we aren't under the law.... does that mean we shouldn't try to keep the commandments?

No, I think we should!
There are many scriptures where the Bible claims the holiness of the law, here is one: Romans 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
The "Law" has been widely defined, for example: there were times when the law included sacrifices and the "Day of Atonement; obviously we do neither and, either one did not bring salvation. Some say the "law" is the original 10 commandments; though holy and worthy, it did not bring salvation. As far, as what law we can now obey, I think Jesus never commanded us to be obedient but, he expects it!

 

[B-A-C]

John 14:15; “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

This is of course jesus speakin here. I notice He calls them.. "My" commandments.
He doesn't call them someone else's commandments. He doesn't say you have to...
But He says if you don't, you don't love Him.

John 14:21; He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

Again... Jesus says if you keep "My" commandments, you're one who loves me. If you do this you will be loved
by the Father. If you do this, I will reveal myself to you.
Does Jesus promise to reveal Himself to those who don't keep the commandments? It would be
interesting to know if there are any other scriptures that say this.

John 14:22; Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?”

Jude asks Jesus, why are you going to reveal yourself to some, but not to others?

John 14:23; Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24; He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Jesus says IF we keep His words (teachings, commandments) we will come to them and abide in them.
Jesus says those who do not love Him, will not keep His words (teachings commandments).
That's a pretty big "IF".

Again, Jesus is speaking here.
John 15:9; Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
John 15:10; If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept
My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Jesus tells us to abide in His love. (is that a command?)
Then He goes on to say, if you keep My commandments, you will abide in "My" love.

=================================================================================

In Matt 19, some asks Jesus... what must I do to get eternal life?

Matt 19:16; And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal
life?”
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

It doesn't get much plainer than that. If you want eternal life... keep the commandments.
Which ones? Jesus answers that question also.

Matt 19:18; Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
Matt 19:19; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

==================================================================================

I mentioned earlier that Matt 28:20; He says to teach other to do the things He "commanded" us to do.

==================================================================================

Some churches seem to think that if you try to obey the commandmnets, you are doing a work
to try to enter into heaven. You are trying to have something to boast about.

Yet Jesus said....

Luke 17:9; He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luke 17:10; So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

If you're doing what was commanded for you to do... you're merely doing what you ought to have done.

===================================================================================

It seems some people are vehemently against the 10 commandments. many groups are trying to get them
banned from courthouses and schools here in the US. But even if you aren't a Christian...
which of the commandments are you against? Which one is a bad thing?

====================================================================================

Paul says in Rom 7:12; the law is Holy. The commandments are Holy, righteous and good.

======================================================================================

In Rom 13:8-10; we see something some churches refer to as "the commandment of Paul".

Rom 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9; For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Rom 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

What Paul is saying here is... if you are really loving your neighbor, you're already keeping the
commandments. If you're murdering them, stealing from them, having an affair with their wife,
then you aren't really loving them.

=======================================================================================

Paul tells the Corinthians that the old Jewish ceremonial laws and covenants to Abraham don't
matter, but here's what does matter.

1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of
the commandments of God.

========================================================================================

Paul tells the Thessalonians... "you know what commandments we gave you....
by the authority of the Lord Jesus".

In 1 Thes 4:2-4; he goes on to say they should avoid sexual immorality. (fornication, adultery, etc... )
(which of course are part of the 10 commandments).

=========================================================================================

I've heard some "Christians" say, I don't really need to keep the commandments, I know Jesus and
that's really all that matters.

Here's what John had to say about that...

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and
the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 2:5; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

If we don't keep His commandments, we don't really know Him. If we say we do... we are liars.

===========================================================================================

Finally John says....

1 Jn 3:23; This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one
another, just as He commanded us.
1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Jesus, and Jesus abides in him. We know by this that
He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

"Just as He commanded us"... another place where Jesus commanded us to keep the commandments.
it says if we keep the commandments.. Jesus abide in us. In fact, this is how we know He
abides in us.

===========================================================================================

 

[Brother-Paul]

The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)
If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)
The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)
Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)
There are many, many more!

Dear brother RJ

Everything you quote is from the Apostle Paul, nothing you quote here is from Jesus!

A lot of the verses you are quoting have been quoted many times by people who want to believe the Law is not applicable to them, I must admit, Iwas quite surprised at your reply RJ.

I appreciate what you are trying to say RJ and agree the Law is a yoke. But it is a yoke because of sin, we are never free from sin, not totally in this life. Yes our sins were wiped away when we became born again, but we will sin again and again, often not realising it. Sin is a yoke, because we can never get away from it, we read it many times in the Psalms. We will never get away from it because the devil is constantly prowling to tempt us, he will try everything he can to steal from us what God has given us. He is nothing more than the enemy of souls.

B-A-C has included so many references that confirm the Law is applicable and Jesus says so.

How can you go against our Lord's teaching, our Lord's Commands.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

New Testament... Keep MY Commandments, all but two quoted here are in the Gospels!

John 14:15 (NKJV)
15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:24 (NKJV)
24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Matt 5:19; Matt 19:17; John 14:21; 1 Cor 7:19; 1 Jn 2:3-4
1 Jn 3:22-24; 1 Jn 5:3; Rev 12:17; Rev 14:12

John 15:10-14 (NKJV)
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

What are Jesus' Commands?

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Everything God does is down to His love for mankind that He created... against sin and the devil.

Everything Jesus did and still does, is to point us to God the Father in Heaven.

God gave the Law to Moses, Jesus came to fulfil that Law, He then Commands us to do as He Commands, that is...

To Keep His Commandments, to do as He has Commanded us.

John 14:15 (NKJV)
15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

 

[RJ]

Everything you quote is from the Apostle Paul, nothing you quote here is from Jesus!

A lot of the verses you are quoting have been quoted many times by people who want to believe the Law is not applicable to them, I must admit, Iwas quite surprised at your reply RJ.

Sorry, should I take the surprise as a negative? I didn't realize this was some sort of contest.....I did say that what I had was only a few of many. Are mine any less accurate or true dear brother. Aside from that, I thought all of scripture was God inspired and much more wouldn't Paul be speaking on Jesus behalf?

And , as far as the law not being applicable perhaps to me...I have always been under the contention, by God, that the law was holy, righteous and blameless and worthy of striving toward but, I would not be so foolish as not know that my salvation comes by way of grace and not the law! And because of grace and not the law, when I mess up I have this to fall back on: Romans8:1 :thumbsup:

One more caveat: Matthew 5:17 ....Jesus fulfills the law by getting inside us. He is the law and it is his righteousness, holiness and blamelessness in an through us, not from ourselves.....he gets all the glory and we have none!!!!

 

[RJ]

Lets have fun with this remembering as born again believers that we are brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus

You had asked several questions and no where did you dictate that your idea of fun was one sided in agreeing with your stance. Are we having fun yet?

 

[norapture]

Does anyone keep the law anymore , if you break one law are we not guilty of breaking all the the law, is that not why no flesh shall be justified by the law

I see a lot of post that says that Jesus come to fulfil the law, did Jesus not do what he said he came to do ( to fulfil the law) is not love the fulfillment of the law , did he not fulfil it by love.

Is there even one who can keep the law, and not break one of them, if you break one your guilty of breaking them all.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sorry, should I take the surprise as a negative? I didn't realize this was some sort of contest.....I did say that what I had was only a few of many. Are mine any less accurate or true dear brother. Aside from that, I thought all of scripture was God inspired and much more wouldn't Paul be speaking on Jesus behalf?

There is no contest brother? The discussion was started with an open mind, I still have an open mind but, Jesus' Words, His Commands are so clear. More on that later.

Yes brother ALL scripture is God inspired...

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

And , as far as the law not being applicable perhaps to me...I have always been under the contention, by God, that the law was holy, righteous and blameless and worthy of striving toward but, I would not be so foolish as not know that my salvation comes by way of grace and not the law! And because of grace and not the law, when I mess up I have this to fall back on: Romans8:1 :thumbsup:

What you quote brother we agree, the law is (not was) Holy, Righteous, Blameless and worthy of striving towards. In fact as stated Jesus says we should obey His Commandments, and He has come to fulfil the Law not otherwise.

One more caveat: Matthew 5:17 ....Jesus fulfills the law by getting inside us. He is the law and it is his righteousness, holiness and blamelessness in an through us, not from ourselves.....he gets all the glory and we have none!!!!

Jesus is the fulfilment of the Law, we agree brother

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)
If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)
The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)
Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)
There are many, many more!

Paul wrote his letter to the Romans before ever visiting Rome, yet his heartfelt concern was for the believers there and this is clearly evident throughout this Epistle.

Paul’s name stands alone here (except for the Holy Spirit’s guidance)—no Silas, Timothy or other brother with him. For Paul is Christ’s apostle unto the Gentiles, the declarer, as here in Romans, of the gospel for this dispensation.

The essential doctrines and directions, of which the apostle Paul wrote, set forth the fulfilment of the promises by the prophets. It spoke of the Son of God, Jesus the Saviour, the promised Messiah, who came from David as to his human nature, but was also declared to be the Son of God, by the Divine power which raised him from the dead.

Paul was an Apostle of God, he was writing to the Christians (ex-Jews) in Rome, so he also had the Jews in mind.

First, he told how wonderful it is to be a Christian. Our justification is not simply a guarantee of heaven, as thrilling as that is, but it is also the source of tremendous blessings that we enjoy here and now.

Second, he assured his readers/including us that justification is a lasting thing. His Jewish readers in particular would ask, "Can this spiritual experience last if it does not require obedience to the Law? What about the trials and sufferings of life? What about the coming judgment?" When God declared us righteous in Jesus Christ, He gave to us seven spiritual blessings that assure us that we cannot be lost.

The gospel of the New Testament is the same good news of God which was promised in the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the Subject and the Author of the gospel, but the gospel began long before the birth of Jesus. The gospel began long, long ago in the mind and plan of God, and God foretold the coming of the gospel (His Son) through the prophets of old.

There is an amazing amount of information and direction in Romans. The Gospel the Power of God, Justification by Faith: Peace With God, a Standing in Grace, Sure Hope of Coming Glory, Patience, Joy in God, etc, etc.

All in all Paul was balancing what he wrote to suit his audience, Gentiles, New Christians, ex-Jews, Jewish thought and knowledge, whilst at the same time aiming to revealing the heavenly character, calling, and destiny of the Church as the Body and Bride of Christ, and as God’s House.

So it appears in this discussion we have two statements in scripture, that may on the face of them appear to possibly conflict, but nothing conflicts in scripture there has to be a reason, there is always a reason why we read what we read. Jesus statement in Matthew 5:17-18 and Pauls in Romans 6:14 to name just one verse from each view seem to conflict but do they?

Keeping an open mind this is how I see/read these scriptures, I confirm I remain open minded and any thoughts I have now are based on how I understand scripture now. When ever there are verses ‘that appear’ to say different things we should always have open minds and search out what is actually said and what is actually meant from what is said.


What is clear to me at this stage is Jesus teaching is so precise, there should be no way this could be misinterpreted.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Obey my commandments etc.

Paul on the other hand in Romans is aiming to set out the truth, but is trying to balance what he says to suit his audience.


Jesus is God's One and Only Son, God Himself said...

Matthew 17:5 (NIV2011)
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Paul's writings require a lot more attention and investigation due to the content. He as an Apostle, called by God, what he has written will no doubt mean the same as what Jesus says but, his writings need to be read in context, first the passages, then the chapters, then the New Testament, then the Bible as a whole. Quoting single verses in Romans I think is not recommended and something I try avoid due to the amount of information and direction Paul includes.

Bless you brother :thumbsup:

 

[Brother-Paul]

Does anyone keep the law anymore , if you break one law are we not guilty of breaking all the the law, is that not why no flesh shall be justified by the law

I see a lot of post that says that Jesus come to fulfil the law, did Jesus not do what he said he came to do ( to fulfil the law) is not love the fulfillment of the law , did he not fulfil it by love.

Is there even one who can keep the law, and not break one of them, if you break one your guilty of breaking them all.

Greetings

Just on the Ten Commandments... most people think they do the right things in life, they think they are good people, etc.

Ask them the following questions..

Have you ever rejected God or Jesus?
Have you ever said 'Oh my God', 'For God's sake', 'Jesus wept'.
Have you ever taken a pen or something from work
Have you ever looked at someone lustfully.

You won't need to go any further.

Bless you