The Law of God, is it dead or alive or on life support?

[Taylor Barrett]

Here we see Paul (The Holy Spirit through Paul) saying that he wishes that those preaching circumcision in addition to faith in Christ would mutilate themselves. (Galatians 5:11-12)"But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even [mutilate themselves."

And here in Acts 15:28-29 we see what The Holy Spirit had to say in regards whether or not new believers should be taught to follow the laws of Moses.

"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

 

[Travis]

This is a confusing place for sure.

We have antimonianists here, that say there is no moral law. In fact you can not sin even if you wanted to. The only sin is unbelief.
Then we have the "Jesus only preached to the Jews crowd." So all of the teachings about the commandments and the sermon on the mount only applied to the Jews.
The majority of these people believe that Paul's teachings replace those of Jesus. (Of course Paul also mentions obedience to the commandments in several places).
Then we have the "grace only" crowd. These seem to believe that any good work you do at all is an attempt at salvation by works.

You sound kind of disenchanted. Why do you stick around when everyone else here is so far from the truth?

Finally we have a few like myself that believe righteous living, bearing good fruit, obedience, and repentance are required.
I personally agree with James 2 which says faith without works is dead. We aren't saved by doing good works, but works are required after we are saved.

I don't believe that righteous living, bearing good fruit, obedience, and repentance are optional for the born again believer.

When I was growing up, many things my Dad said weren't optional. The way he put it, paraphrased, was, "Your going to do this, either with or without a spanking." Many times I did things with a spanking. But I learned that it was a lot easier to just do them, without the spanking thing to motivate me. In time, I actually learned that all these things my dad required of me were actually really good things for me, and I began to enjoy doing many of them. My dad was a lot bigger, stronger, and smarter than me, I really had no chance of overpowering his will for me to be disciplined. None of my temper tantrums really seemed to make a difference in the end. There was never any real chance of me winning and him losing. As long as he wanted to win, he had the power to do so.

When Jesus brings a little lamb into his fold, when he seals their spirit with his Holy Spirit, he makes a promise to them to get them to the end safe. Nothing in all of creation can separate them from the Love of God, not even themselves. The nice thing about truly being born again though, is that God gives a man (or woman) a new heart, with desires to please the Lord. We don't have to obey him only out of some constraint and fear of being cast away, but we can do so out of a pure conscience and love for our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Or one can say, we can freely serve him because he has already accepted us. Sometimes people get this backwards, and think that we have to make ourselves worthy of his love and acceptance. Like some tryout for the track team or something. This couldn't be any farther from the truth though.

Travis

 

[pekoe]

"This*is*the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;" He.10:16

God wouldn't keep us in remembrance of His laws if He didn't want us to obey them. The passages where Paul speaks about the law versus grace or works versus faith must be misunderstood by mainstream Christianity today.

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision." Gal.2:11-12

Peter was afraid of what other Jews thought because it was unlawful for Jews to eat with gentiles.

To the Jews, the law became something it was never intended to be and (imo) this is what Paul was teaching against.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

"This*is*the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;" He.10:16

God wouldn't keep us in remembrance of His laws if He didn't want us to obey them. The passages where Paul speaks about the law versus grace or works versus faith must be misunderstood by mainstream Christianity today.

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision." Gal.2:11-12

Peter was afraid of what other Jews thought because it was unlawful for Jews to eat with gentiles.

To the Jews, the law became something it was never intended to be and (imo) this is what Paul was teaching against.

So do you sacrfice? Do you stone adulterers? Do you honor the sabbath and feast days?

"When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Hebrews 8:13)

 

[DHC]

Confusion about whether the law is "done away", or whether we play any part in our salvation, is mainly the result of misunderstanding things written by Paul (my opinion only.)

Peter gave a warning about Paul's writings:
2 Pe.3:14
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

(The thinking in church today is that there is nothing for "believers" to be diligent about being spotless, because believers have nothing to do with their own cleansing.)

Then Peter said: "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

Why should believers think the "longsuffering" of God has anything to do with their salvation? Salvation happens in a split second...doesn't it?

Finally Peter says: "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

So It seems Paul's writings can be twisted to mean something Paul never intended and misinterpreting those words might lead someone to damnation.

We know beyond doubt that Jesus taught the law and expected people to follow His teaching, so whatever Paul meant in any of his letters, he most certainly was not teaching anyone to ignore the Messiah instruction.

I think Paul had a difficult ministry in teaching gentiles about the God of the Jews and whether gentiles were required to get circumcised
or follow dietary laws, both of which have spiritual meaning.

I'm think it was things like that Paul was talking about as far as the law goes.

Hello Pekoe.

Perhaps you could assist me in understanding how the law applies to us.

You said the following in post #57

We know beyond doubt that Jesus taught the law and expected people to follow His teaching

Which of the laws must be obeyed by a Christian and which of the laws can we ignore?

 

[pekoe]

So do you sacrfice?

Yes, you live in sacrifice following the example of Jesus.

"And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: " Mt.20:23

That's the cup of suffering and the baptism of fire and I do believe we're being prepared for it now.


"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Ro.12:1

Do you stone adulterers?

Of course not. Judgement belongs to God:

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" He.10:28-29

If Christians think they can "believe in Jesus" without repenting and obeying Him, they are in for a terrible surprise.

Do you honor the sabbath and feast days?

If you like:

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Ro.14:5

The problem Taylor is that you're reading the law the way the Rabbis read them and it is this view that Paul taught against.

"When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Hebrews 8:13)

Yes, the law as the Spirit imparted it...which was and always be in effect.

 

[pekoe]

Hello Pekoe.
Perhaps you could assist me in understanding how the law applies to us.

Hello DHC.
As a "believer", the law applies to us the same way applied to the One we say we follow:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Ro.8:29

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" Phil.3:9-10

"Which of the laws must be obeyed by a Christian and which of the laws can we ignore?

The law has spiritual application to it. For instance:

"Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." De.25:4

Which means:
"For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope." 1 Co.9:10


Obey all the law as the Spirit makes it understandable and you'll have a sound mind with nothing to worry about.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Yes, you live in sacrifice following the example of Jesus.

"And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: " Mt.20:23

That's the cup of suffering and the baptism of fire and I do believe we're being prepared for it now.


"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Ro.12:1

Of course not. Judgement belongs to God:

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" He.10:28-29

If Christians think they can "believe in Jesus" without repenting and obeying Him, they are in for a terrible surprise.

If you like:

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Ro.14:5

The problem Taylor is that you're reading the law the way the Rabbis read them and it is this view that Paul taught against.


Yes, the law as the Spirit imparted it...which was and always be in effect.

I very much believe in obedience, repentance, and the idea that faith=works.
But what you are talking about is not the law of moses.
You very clearly break the law of moses when you do not stone the adulterer, when you do not honor the sabbath, and when you do not sacrifice animals.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Hello DHC.
As a "believer", the law applies to us the same way applied to the One we say we follow:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Ro.8:29

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" Phil.3:9-10


The law has spiritual application to it. For instance:

"Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." De.25:4

Which means:
"For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope." 1 Co.9:10


Obey all the law as the Spirit makes it understandable and you'll have a sound mind with nothing to worry about.

What you are saying, as i understand it, is basically..... "obey the laws which you believe you should obey". but that doesnt work. Many people who believe in Jesus also believe that it is ok to live homosexual lifestyle, and do drugs, and commit theft and murder. you will find some in the prison system. we can not trust our own understanding, but we have to follow the clear teachings of the bible. the clear teachings of the mosaic law are no doubt talking about stoning adulterers, refraining from labor on saturdays, refusing to eat shrimp and pork, etc. if you follow one part of this law, then Christ is no benefit and you are obliged to follow the whole law. (as Paul put it)

 

[pekoe]

What you are saying, as i understand it, is basically..... "obey the laws which you believe you should obey". but that doesnt work.

In a way, yes, because the writings of the Apostles show transition. Here's an example:I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Ro.14:14

For conscience sake, don't do something in front of another believer if that person believes it is sin. You have to understand the times Paul wrote in, or you'll misunderstand his words.

Many people who believe in Jesus also believe that it is ok to live homosexual lifestyle, and do drugs, and commit theft and murder. you will find some in the prison system.

You'll find these people in Romans 1 also, so lets not take Paul's words about not being "under the law" and jump over the cliff with them...ok?

we can not trust our own understanding, but we have to follow the clear teachings of the bible. the clear teachings of the mosaic law are no doubt talking about stoning adulterers, refraining from labor on saturdays, refusing to eat shrimp and pork, etc. if you follow one part of this law, then Christ is no benefit and you are obliged to follow the whole law. (as Paul put it)

We understand from Jesus encounter with the accused adulteress what example we are to follow, which is the true heart of the law (the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith, Mt.23:23). As for pork chops ( see Acts 10) and Saturdays (see He.4), these are understood in new ways in Christ and they all apply to us in Spirit.

 

[pekoe]

I very much believe in obedience, repentance, and the idea that faith=works.
But what you are talking about is not the law of moses.
You very clearly break the law of moses when you do not stone the adulterer, when you do not honor the sabbath, and when you do not sacrifice animals.

The law is really all about Jesus:

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Co.3:13

The law doesn't profit anyone without faith in God. It only condemns them.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

seems to me like you are picking and choosing which parts of the law you want to follow and which parts of the law you dont.

the true heart of the law is revealed by the law itself. stone the adulterer. that is the law. therefore, that is the heart of the law. period.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

The law is really all about Jesus:

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Co.3:13

The law doesn't profit anyone without faith in God. It only condemns them.

Jesus very clearly changes the law when he says "you have heard it said 'an eye for an eye', but I say unto you that whoever strikes your left cheek turn to them the other cheek also"

 

[Taylor Barrett]

sin is sin. The Bible would very clearly teach, all the apostles would have very clearly stressed, that we should be keeping every aspect of the law (including sabbath, circumcision, diet, stoning people, etc) if we were indeed still under the law. think about it this way= if we are under the law, then every time we eat bacon we are sinning a sin deserving of eternal hell. every time we fail to stone the adulterer we are commiting a sin deserving of eternal hell. Because all sin is transgression against God which deserves eternal hell. Therefore, if we were still under the law we would still be sinning whenever we would fail to do one of those things. Do you really think The Holy Spirit would allow Paul to go on and on and on about how we are no longer under the law, if we were still under the law? We are not under the law!

The teachings of Jesus Christ are the teachings that we are to follow. And the teachings of Jesus Christ are significantly DIFFERENT than the commandments of the law. In fact, they are downright contradictory and opposite to eachother in many instances.

 

[pekoe]

seems to me like you are picking and choosing which parts of the law you want to follow and which parts of the law you dont.

the true heart of the law is revealed by the law itself. stone the adulterer. that is the law. therefore, that is the heart of the law. period.

That's what those who fell in the wilderness thought. No Taylor. The heart of the law is repentance. That's what God wanted the law to work in them:

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Ho.6:6

Don't ignore a contradiction Taylor. Face it head on.

 

[pekoe]

Jesus very clearly changes the law when he says "you have heard it said 'an eye for an eye', but I say unto you that whoever strikes your left cheek turn to them the other cheek also"

What Jesus did was correct the traditional understanding of the religious leaders, which was incorrect .

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Pekoe, you show me where (in the law, not in later prophets) your understanding is revealed. Because what I see, is a very clear, direct, simple, and plain commandment which says that adulterers must be stoned. period.

 

[pekoe]

sin is sin. The Bible would very clearly teach, all the apostles would have very clearly stressed, that we should be keeping every aspect of the law (including sabbath, circumcision, diet, stoning people, etc) if we were indeed still under the law.

You're not looking at the scripture I'm citing where the disciples explained the spiritual application concerning the things you've mentioned.

Because all sin is transgression against God which deserves eternal hell. Therefore, if we were still under the law we would still be sinning whenever we would fail to do one of those things. Do you really think The Holy Spirit would allow Paul to go on and on and on about how we are no longer under the law, if we were still under the law? We are not under the law!

Well my friend, if you suppose God will send little Johnny to never ending torment because he stole a comic book from the store and was hit and killed by a car before he could get home to read it, we are miles apart. God is far more merciful than most Christians give Him credit for.

The teachings of Jesus Christ are the teachings that we are to follow. And the teachings of Jesus Christ are significantly DIFFERENT than the commandments of the law.

Yeah I know...it's a lot easier not to commit adultery than it is not eyeball a woman and thereby commit adultery in your heart...isn't it? Lol.

In fact, they are downright contradictory and opposite to eachother in many instances.

Then you have misunderstood the Messiah, because He said He did not come to destroy the law, but fulfill it and His followers follow Him.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

The Law of Moses clearly states: "If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Now you want to tell me that the law actually means "Don't stone the person, instead have mercy on them". That, to me, is just insanity; equal to saying that "Go eat apples" actually means "Do not eat any apples".

 

[Taylor Barrett]

As for who God will or wont send to Hell, I have to stand on The Word of God. The Word of God says that everyone who does not repent of their sins and believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior will go to hell. With the possible exception for young children and mentally handicapped.