The Law of God, is it dead or alive or on life support?

[james1523]

Why would Jesus be telling people to do the law of the prophets? Notice the next two verses talk about the narrow gate and the wide gate.
Again in Matthew we see...

Matt 22:36; "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Why would Jesus still be teaching the law? Maybe parts of it still apply.

The law of China exists but an American Citizen is not under it as long as they remain in the USA. This is how a law can exist and yet we cannot be under it at the same time.
Jesus spoke these aspects of the law to the Jews in his capacity as the Messiah coming to rule an earthly Kingdom from Jerusalem . Jesus's and the disciples ministry to the Jews is quite distinct from Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.

 

[RJ]

Good works may not get you into heaven. But faith alone won't either. Faith without works is dead.
Wile good deeds don't get you into heaven. Evil deeds can certainly keep you out of heaven.

Let's take these statements one at a time; I offer atleast one scripture, where applicable against your statement and you offer offer atleast one in support of your statement:

• Good works may not get you into heaven. They either can or can not, there is no such thing as "maybe" in God's kingdom. Isaiah 64:6 The absolute true is, the "good works" of unsaved people are dead and, as "filithy rags" to God. It is only up to God to determine which man has good works or not and determined by you having his indwelt spirit or not. Stop advocating what you can do and more on what God can do through you!
• But faith won't either. We are saved by faith and grace, not works. However, good works after spiritual rebirth signifies true faith. Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1 and Galatians 3:24
• Faith without works is dead. I answered that above.
• Wile good deeds don't get you into heaven. With no disrespect, you have both redundant and conflicting statements about good works: First you say they "may" not get you into heaven and then you say they "don't" get you into heaven....which is it -BAC- ?
• Evil deeds can certainly keep you out of heaven. Something we all can agree to, our sin , without God's saving gift of Jesus Christ will definetly keep you out of heaven.

 

[Brighthouse]

Brother Bac you are correct, we will agree to disagree. The scripture matt 25:42-46 is at the end of the judgement to the gentiles. Did we do anything to become righteous?? verse 37 I know I did not. We became righteous in the first place just like we receive His Faith,as a gift by Jesus not by anything I could ever do.( eph 2:4-10) here is my point. If we believe in the faith and righteousness God gave us as a gift to have,who can take it away?

Works come natural to those who are in Christ Jesus,I do not have to think them up for myself bro hehe I cannot do anything in myself to obtain what Jesus has given to me as a gift. My work in Christ Jesus is to believe in all he has already done for me.( john 6:28-29) Abraham faith was apart from works.( rom 4:1-8)verse 3!!!! For if we need to work, then grace no longer can apply. Nor can righteousness for both are a gift from God. Now do actions come from both? sure,but not by us,but rather by him who lives in us to me bro. ( rom 1:17,2 cor 5:21,rom 3:22,and 1 cor 1:30)

To me brother are only work is to believe what Jesus has already said about us,and done. My life lines up this way to him,and through him, and by him I have been rewarded,just as all the righteous are in matt 25! I have become Grace minded,and Righteous minded due to Jesus who lives in me,not because I did anything to obtain it,for if i did anything to obtain it,it would no longer be a gift. A gift is received not because one deserves it,but rather because we do not! But religion teach's if one gives you something you own them now.

All we owe our Jesus is to believe in the gift, his eternal life,because there is not one of us who could ever pay him back for that! And from this wonderful gift Jesus gave us,we!!!! have become reconciled to our Jesus!! And thereby give to others this message,because Jesus has given every man and every women the ministry of reconciliation!!! ( 2 cor 5:17-21!!!!) We are his witness( Isaiah 43:10) " in order that you may know and BELIEVE ME And understand that I am HE. before me there was no God formed and there will be none after ME".

We either believe this or we do not,and from what we believe we either obtain from our Jesus or we do not.I hope brother Bac you better understand where I am coming from now. ( james 1:22 as RJ pointed out in his words comes from believing in Jesus, not in our self. blessing all!

 

[B-A-C]

The absolute true is, the "good works" of unsaved people are dead and, as "filithy rags" to God. It is only up to God to determine which man has good works or not and determined by you having his indwelt spirit or not. Stop advocating what you can do and more on what God can do through you!

Totally agree here. The works of UNSAVED people are dead. That's what I've been saying all along.
I also agree it's God doing it through me. However to some people that means if I'm not doing anything for God's kingdom, it's because he doesn't want me to.
Did God use Moses? Did he use Elijah? Did Jesus use the disciples? God usually uses people to accomplish His will.

We are saved by faith and grace, not works. However, good works after spiritual rebirth signifies true faith

I agree with this also. "works after spiritual rebirth signifies true faith". I have been saying all along we are not saved by works, yet works at some point are required.

With no disrespect, you have both redundant and conflicting statements about good works: First you say they "may" not get you into heaven and then you say they "don't" get you into heaven....which is it -BAC- ?

The discrepency here isn't that good works save you. However what I meant by "they DON'T get you to heaven" was. That bad deeds (also called sin) can keep you out of heaven.

 

[B-A-C]

The law of China exists but an American Citizen is not under it as long as they remain in the USA. This is how a law can exist and yet we cannot be under it at the same time.
Jesus spoke these aspects of the law to the Jews in his capacity as the Messiah coming to rule an earthly Kingdom from Jerusalem . Jesus's and the disciples ministry to the Jews is quite distinct from Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.

I fi didn't know better, I would say you are an advocate of two dispensations. One for the Gentiles and one for Jews.
Yet the Bible says with God there is no distinction. We are saved the same way. If Jesus is only for the Jews, and Paul is for the Gentiles, does that mean
we should pray to Paul now? Is he our savior now? None of the teachings of Jesus apply to Gentiles anyway right?
Was the Samaritan woman at the well a Jew or a Gentile? Was the good Samaritan in the parable a Jew or a Gentile?
Did Jesus say go into all Israel and make disciples, or did he say go into all the world (all nations) and make disciples?

 

[DHC]

Hello B-A-C.

Your post seems confused B-A-C, Jesus was specifically sent firstly to the lost sheep of the house of
Israel, as the following quotations makes abundantly clear.

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles,
and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Do not go into the way of the Gentiles!

Matthew 15
21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a
woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord,
Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And
His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He
answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 Then she came
and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the
children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” 27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs
eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman,
great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Jesus was sent to the house of Israel first and 'He answered her not a word'. Then the proof text
for the two dispensations approach 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel'.
So there should be no debate that there are two administrations visible in the text. One dispensation
to the house of Israel and the other to the Gentile nations.

If the text did not mention a separate administration for the nation of Israel, then we would not
consider two administrations. Outside of the reconciliation in Christ we have two dispensations.
Within the reconciliation of Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. Could it be any clearer B-A-C.
How do you read the text?

 

[RJ]

Totally agree here. The works of UNSAVED people are dead. That's what I've been saying all along.
I also agree it's God doing it through me. However to some people that means if I'm not doing anything for God's kingdom, it's because he doesn't want me to.
Did God use Moses? Did he use Elijah? Did Jesus use the disciples? God usually uses people to accomplish His will.



I agree with this also. "works after spiritual rebirth signifies true faith". I have been saying all along we are not saved by works, yet works at some point are required.



The discrepency here isn't that good works save you. However what I meant by "they DON'T get you to heaven" was. That bad deeds (also called sin) can keep you out of heaven.

• Totally agree here. The works of UNSAVED people are dead. That's what I've been saying all along.
  I also agree it's God doing it through me. However to some people that means if I'm not doing anything for God's kingdom, it's because he doesn't want me to.
  Did God use Moses? Did he use Elijah? Did Jesus use the disciples? God usually uses people to accomplish His will.
  Sorry, that's rediculos that a true Christian would say " I am not doing anything for God because he doesn't want me to do anything"...that's no Christian. I don't know what kind od Christian you eun around with but, I have only known non-believers who might say something like that!
• I agree with this also. "works after spiritual rebirth signifies true faith". I have been saying all along we are not saved by works, yet works at some point are required
  Sorry again, all I have ever heard from you is "Faith Alone" doen't save you....sound like you have to have some "works" to me! Romans 3:28
• The discrepency here isn't that good works save you. However what I meant by "they DON'T get you to heaven" was. That bad deeds (also called sin) can keep you out of heaven 1. There is no discrpepency in the Bible, good works definetly don't save you...only Christ in you does! 2. I don't know what you list as "bad deeds" but all True Chritians going to heaven are also sinners.
• B-A-C, we both know how many times over the years you stated that we are not saved by grace alone. I also know, that you can, in your mind, come up with many verses that support your thought. But I leave you with this one thing: We are forgiven by Jesus Christ's death on the cross alone, that seperates us from all other religions. This happened by God's grace alone and no other!

 

[RJ]

The law of China exists but an American Citizen is not under it as long as they remain in the USA. This is how a law can exist and yet we cannot be under it at the same time.
Jesus spoke these aspects of the law to the Jews in his capacity as the Messiah coming to rule an earthly Kingdom from Jerusalem . Jesus's and the disciples ministry to the Jews is quite distinct from Paul's ministry to the Gentiles.

• Jesus's and the disciples ministry to the Jews is quite distinct from Paul's ministry to the Gentiles
  I agree completely with this. Many don't realize that though Jesus was ushering in a new era of salvation by grace, what the majority of the Bible writes of him was before his death. During this period all of what Jesus taught, did and said was under the Law. Though God, Jesus was very human and as a human , no one upheld the law perfectly like he did and, he taught the Jews under the salvation of the Law. Jesus was born under the Law and died under the Law.Paul, on the other hand, came frrom the Law but , after salvation, he taught under the law of grace. Jesus taught by the Law and Paul taught by grace.

 

[james1523]

I fi didn't know better, I would say you are an advocate of two dispensations. One for the Gentiles and one for Jews.
Yet the Bible says with God there is no distinction. We are saved the same way. If Jesus is only for the Jews, and Paul is for the Gentiles, does that mean
we should pray to Paul now? Is he our savior now? None of the teachings of Jesus apply to Gentiles anyway right?
Was the Samaritan woman at the well a Jew or a Gentile? Was the good Samaritan in the parable a Jew or a Gentile?
Did Jesus say go into all Israel and make disciples, or did he say go into all the world (all nations) and make disciples?

Since as far back as Old Testament times there has always been two separate dispensations - one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

 

[james1523]

• Jesus's and the disciples ministry to the Jews is quite distinct from Paul's ministry to the Gentiles
  I agree completely with this. Many don't realize that though Jesus was ushering in a new era of salvation by grace, what the majority of the Bible writes of him was before his death. During this period all of what Jesus taught, did and said was under the Law. Though God, Jesus was very human and as a human , no one upheld the law perfectly like he did and, he taught the Jews under the salvation of the Law. Jesus was born under the Law and died under the Law.Paul, on the other hand, came frrom the Law but , after salvation, he taught under the law of grace. Jesus taught by the Law and Paul taught by grace.

Yes and just because Jesus ascended into Heaven did not mean that Jesus's earthly ministry ceased. Rather, Jesus's ministry was enlarged and expanded and heightened after His departure. Jesus continued his earthly ministry and reveal His gospel to the Gentiles via the apostles (and the church), chiefly Paul, and this gospel was confirmed and supported by the (Jewish) 12 disciples. So we have a clear transition from Jesus's ministry to the Jews before his death, then his ministry to the Jews (via Peter etc) and Gentiles (via Paul) after his death, and then eventually his ministry only to the Gentiles (after the fall of Jerusalem) via Paul and Peter etc.

 

[Travis]

• Jesus's and the disciples ministry to the Jews is quite distinct from Paul's ministry to the Gentiles
  I agree completely with this. Many don't realize that though Jesus was ushering in a new era of salvation by grace, what the majority of the Bible writes of him was before his death. During this period all of what Jesus taught, did and said was under the Law. Though God, Jesus was very human and as a human , no one upheld the law perfectly like he did and, he taught the Jews under the salvation of the Law. Jesus was born under the Law and died under the Law.Paul, on the other hand, came frrom the Law but , after salvation, he taught under the law of grace. Jesus taught by the Law and Paul taught by grace.

Since as far back as Old Testament times there has always been two separate dispensations - one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

I'm truly confused by these comments. I guess I could just dismiss is outright and not even try and figure out what you guys believe about this, but I figure I might as well ask and see, regardless of whether I agree or not.

Has not salvation always been by grace through faith? What dispensation was Job living under, if he came before the Jews, and what was the basis for his salvation?

How can there be a different salvation under the law than anywhere else, when The Spirit of God says this through Paul:

Romans 3:19-22
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Are these statements only true from after the time Paul wrote them in the 1st century, or do they apply to the past as well?

I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of what others believe here on this, because I'm a little confused right now...

Travis

 

[RJ]

I'm truly confused by these comments. I guess I could just dismiss is outright and not even try and figure out what you guys believe about this, but I figure I might as well ask and see, regardless of whether I agree or not.

Has not salvation always been by grace through faith? What dispensation was Job living under, if he came before the Jews, and what was the basis for his salvation?

How can there be a different salvation under the law than anywhere else, when The Spirit of God says this through Paul:

Romans 3:19-22
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Are these statements only true from after the time Paul wrote them in the 1st century, or do they apply to the past as well?

I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of what others believe here on this, because I'm a little confused right now...

Travis

As best as I understand:

• Dispensationalism is a method of interpreting history that divides God’s work and purposes toward mankind into different periods of time. Usually, there are seven dispensations identified, although some believe there are more. There is not just 2 but certainly dispensation has involved the Jew and Gentile. The key is it has always been and will always continue to be by the works of God and not man.The common seven are:

1. Innocence
2. Conscience
3. Human Government
4. Promise
5. law
6. Grace
7. Millenial Kingdom

• Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saint. This includes Job, his salvation is a gift of God (Grace) and is only a direct result of Jesus Christ.
• There was no salvation under the Law again, only through Jesus Christ, salvation is based on the forgiveness of sins , past, present and future.
• We are currently under the depensation of Grace and under this despensation we are only justified by faith in Jesus Christ which is by the free gift of God.
• We have had many despensation eras before, dealing with and continuing to deal with the Jew and the Gentile. I would agree that any and all salvation only comes by way of God's grace and he will ultimately decide whether we understand or not.

 

[james1523]

I'm truly confused by these comments. I guess I could just dismiss is outright and not even try and figure out what you guys believe about this, but I figure I might as well ask and see, regardless of whether I agree or not.

Has not salvation always been by grace through faith? What dispensation was Job living under, if he came before the Jews, and what was the basis for his salvation?

How can there be a different salvation under the law than anywhere else, when The Spirit of God says this through Paul:

Romans 3:19-22
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Are these statements only true from after the time Paul wrote them in the 1st century, or do they apply to the past as well?

I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of what others believe here on this, because I'm a little confused right now...

Travis

I believe, that faith has always been the way a person is saved from hell ever since Adam and Eve. But there is also another aspect of salvation and that is to enter into God's Kingdom. In the Old testament a gentile could be saved by faith and following their conscience (Rom 2:14). At the same time a Jew could be saved by faith and living under the Law of Moses. A Gentile did not have to become a Jew to be saved. God chose the Jews so that they would represent Him on Earth and so the other nations would know God as well, but they didn't have to all become Jews to be saved. On the other hand, only the Jews truly knew God (John 4:22) so there were advantages to becoming a Jew. This time period was the time of ignorance which God overlooked (Acts 17:30), where a Gentile could be saved by faith even if they did not really know who God was. Jesus's earthly ministry was mainly a Jewish one. After Jesus ascended into Heaven and gave us the Spirit, His ministry was both to the Jew and then mainly to the Gentile (the whole world), and both Jew and Gentile can be saved by faith after hearing the Gospel and following the Spirit (Rom 8:1). Now God does not tolerate anyone not knowing Christ (Acts 17:30). So everyone is saved by faith under the different dispensations - but to obey God and fulfil the requirements to enter His Kingdom is also by faith and the conscience, the law of Moses, or the gospel and Spirit, depending upon what dispensation you lived in. Each dispensation had different degrees of strictness e.g. in the Old Testament times God did not require the Gentiles to stop eating pork for example, only the Jews. The Jews were required to keep 600 or so laws. This was not really for their salvation but for their preservation and to be an example to the world. Now there are even more or even fewer laws (depending upon how you look at it) for the Christian to keep.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

My opinion=

Dead and Gone, replaced by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

-You have heard it said, 'an eye for an eye', but I say unto you that whosoever strikes your left cheek, turn to them the other
-There is One God, love your neighbor
-Whoever does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only Son
etc

 

[DHC]

How can there be a different salvation under the law than anywhere else, when The Spirit of God says this through Paul:

Romans 3:19-22
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:​

Travis

Hello Travis.

This is a very tough subject to understand Travis. The subject of legalism in Christianity causes never ending
debate.

If you read the first part of the verse you quoted from.

Romans 3:19-22
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

Those under the law were the Israelites. We are what the Bible calls 'Gentiles' and we were never under
the law. If you read the scripture carefully Travis, you will become aware that there are two distinct peoples.
One under the law and the other without the law. Paul says the law speaks to those who are under the law.

The law is useless without a temple and a temple is necessary for the sacrifices for sin to take place.
One cannot conduct a sacrifice for sin without the priestly class according to the Mosaic Law.

These priests are only from one Jewish genetic lineage, so no atonement is possible among the Gentile
nations without a temple and priests. Hence Travis, the law is useless for any Gentile nation, but the law
has one application. The law allows a Gentile to see what sin is, the law can make us aware of the
need for salvation.

The law cannot bring about righteousness, the law only makes one aware that we are law breakers.
Paul was a Jew and was raised under the law. You and I have no idea what being raised under the
Mosaic law means. This old covenant which the law is part of has now passed into history and has
no relevance today. Even in the nation of Israel the population is not even under the Mosaic law.

The only folk you will ever encounter that think they are under the Mosaic law are the ten commandment
fraternity.

 

[DHC]

I believe, that faith has always been the way a person is saved from hell ever since Adam and Eve. But there is also another aspect of salvation and that is to enter into God's Kingdom. In the Old testament a gentile could be saved by faith and following their conscience (Rom 2:14). At the same time a Jew could be saved by faith and living under the Law of Moses. A Gentile did not have to become a Jew to be saved. God chose the Jews so that they would represent Him on Earth and so the other nations would know God as well, but they didn't have to all become Jews to be saved. On the other hand, only the Jews truly knew God (John 4:22) so there were advantages to becoming a Jew. This time period was the time of ignorance which God overlooked (Acts 17:30), where a Gentile could be saved by faith even if they did not really know who God was. Jesus's earthly ministry was mainly a Jewish one. After Jesus ascended into Heaven and gave us the Spirit, His ministry was both to the Jew and then mainly to the Gentile (the whole world), and both Jew and Gentile can be saved by faith after hearing the Gospel and following the Spirit (Rom 8:1). Now God does not tolerate anyone not knowing Christ (Acts 17:30). So everyone is saved by faith under the different dispensations - but to obey God and fulfil the requirements to enter His Kingdom is also by faith and the conscience, the law of Moses, or the gospel and Spirit, depending upon what dispensation you lived in. Each dispensation had different degrees of strictness e.g. in the Old Testament times God did not require the Gentiles to stop eating pork for example, only the Jews. The Jews were required to keep 600 or so laws. This was not really for their salvation but for their preservation and to be an example to the world. Now there are even more or even fewer laws (depending upon how you look at it) for the Christian to keep.

Hello James.

That was the most confusing post I think I have ever read!

You said the following.

I believe, that faith has always been the way a person is saved from hell ever since Adam and Eve. But there is also another aspect
of salvation and that is to enter into God's Kingdom. In the Old testament a gentile could be saved by faith and following their conscience
(Rom 2:14).

I strongly disagree with what you said James. An earlier line from Paul's letter to the Romans had already
sealed mankind's fate.

Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned
in the law will be judged by the law.

A good or bad conscious will never divert the judgement of God, you will die in your sin regardless of
your state of mind. There is only one name under heaven by which we can be saved! No Jew or
Gentile before or after Christ stood a chance without the full reconciliation offered by Christ's blood.

Tell me James, what happened to the Jews after receiving the law?

God judged a few bad apples in the desert?

 

[pekoe]

Confusion about whether the law is "done away", or whether we play any part in our salvation, is mainly the result of misunderstanding things written by Paul (my opinion only.)

Peter gave a warning about Paul's writings:
2 Pe.3:14
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."

(The thinking in church today is that there is nothing for "believers" to be diligent about being spotless, because believers have nothing to do with their own cleansing.)

Then Peter said: "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

Why should believers think the "longsuffering" of God has anything to do with their salvation? Salvation happens in a split second...doesn't it?

Finally Peter says: "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

So It seems Paul's writings can be twisted to mean something Paul never intended and misinterpreting those words might lead someone to damnation.

We know beyond doubt that Jesus taught the law and expected people to follow His teaching, so whatever Paul meant in any of his letters, he most certainly was not teaching anyone to ignore the Messiah instruction.

I think Paul had a difficult ministry in teaching gentiles about the God of the Jews and whether gentiles were required to get circumcised or follow dietary laws, both of which have spiritual meaning.

I'm think it was things like that Paul was talking about as far as the law goes.

 

[B-A-C]

My opinion=

Dead and Gone, replaced by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And what did Jesus teach?

Matt 5:19; "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

Mark 10:19; "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'

John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Mat 5:21; "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
Mat 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matt 5:27; "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
Matt 5:28; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matt 5:33; "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
Matt 5:34; "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,

Matt 5:43; "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Matt 5:44; "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matt 7:26; "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt 5:17; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18; "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The law never went away, the way we are saved under it is what changed. The is still a high priest (Jesus) just like in the old testament.
There is still a sacrifice required for our sins. Under the new covenant Jesus paid the price for our sins, but the things that were sin in the OT, are still sins in the NT.

The only difference is that there is grace for those who have accepted Jesus and follow His teachings.

 

[B-A-C]

I'm truly confused by these comments. I guess I could just dismiss is outright and not even try and figure out what you guys believe about this, but I figure I might as well ask and see, regardless of whether I agree or not.

This is a confusing place for sure.

We have antimonianists here, that say there is no moral law. In fact you can not sin even if you wanted to. The only sin is unbelief.
Then we have the "Jesus only preached to the Jews crowd." So all of the teachings about the commandments and the sermon on the mount only applied to the Jews.
The majority of these people believe that Paul's teachings replace those of Jesus. (Of course Paul also mentions obedience to the commandments in several places).
Then we have the "grace only" crowd. These seem to believe that any good work you do at all is an attempt at salvation by works.

Finally we have a few like myself that believe righteous living, bearing good fruit, obedience, and repentance are required.
I personally agree with James 2 which says faith without works is dead. We aren't saved by doing good works, but works are required after we are saved.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

@pekoe you can read in acts where James, Peter, and Paul all agree with that gentiles should not be taught to follow the laws of moses, but only to follow a few rules which were to abstain from sexual immorality, and from meat sacrificed to idols, and from the blood of strangled animals. and if i recall correctly, in Galatians i think it was, Paul actually says that he wishes that the people who were teaching the law of moses to Christians should mutilate themselves. that is very strong words. you see all throughout the NT, that the old covenant was flawed, and it has been fulfilled and superseded, and has passed away and been replaced with something far better.
@B-A-C i think its important to understand a couple of things. 1, that jesus was still under the law when he was preaching. (the law was not fulfilled until after his crucifixion). 2, even in those teachings, Jesus is clearly changing the law. for example= "you have heard it said, 'an eye for an eye', but i say unto you that who ever strikes your left cheek, turn to them the other also". he very clearly changes that law, in fact he commands you to do the opposite of what the old law commanded. we see all throughout the new testament, that the old testament has passed away, because it was flawed, and temporary, and merely a stop-gap measure until truth would come into the world through Jesus Christ. But that still leaves us with the question... then what laws was Jesus saying that we, people living after he fulfilled the old law, must follow? He was saying that we must follows those NEW laws whhich He gave us! You see that the new laws He gave us in the gospels, for example, One God+ Love your neighor, and if someone steals your things do not demand them back, if someone attacks you let them and do not fight back but show thm love in martyrdon, etc. these are the laws which Jesus gave us to replace the old laws. at least, that is what is clealy obvious to me.

one thing i would add, is this = "I did not come to abolish the law, BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT to fulfill it!"
Notice how i emphasized the "BUt" in that sentence?
Because people use the word "But" for a certain reason.
Usually, it means, "i know i said the one thing, BUT i really meant this"
for example "I dont mean you any disrespect, BUT your a real jerk"
or "Your macaroni casserole isnt horrible, BUT its just not for me"
See what I am getting at ?
It seems that Jesus made that comment becuuse, in some way, he really did ABOLISH the law, BUT he didnt abolish it, what he did what fulfill it. (which had the same effect as abolishing it.