The Law of God, is it dead or alive or on life support?

[Ezra Allen]

While it's true faith in Jesus required to be saved, (John 3:16; ) and it's true that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6; ) neither verse says it is a sin.
It's also true that those who don't believe in Jesus are already judged. (John 3:18; )

The other thought here is, that if unbelief is a sin, and faith comes only from God, then caused this unbelief. However the Bible says God cannot sin. ( Jas 1:13; )
So if unbelief is a sin, it cannot be caused by God.

(Matt 16:27; John 5:29; Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; Tit 1:16; Rev 2:5; Rev 2:19; Rev 2:26; Rev 20:12-13; etc..)

We as singular mindset creatures love to think we have it all. All the glory and power that Jesus exhibits we love to add to ourselves. I have faith great faith in God’s existence personal faith. However my faith is momentary to the blow of the wind. Otherwise I wouldn’t struggle with sin. Today in popular Christian thinking many people think of faith as something they hold on to.

One example I think on steadily is the Shield of Faith.

In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
(Ephesians 6:16 NIV)

Many people think this shield is a Shield of Believer’s Faith, but it is not.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
(Proverbs 3:5 NIV)

because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.
(James 1:3 NIV)

if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
(2 Timothy 2:13 NIV)

Before Paul finishes his letter to the Ephesians he wrote a whole bunch of stuff. Each item in his Armor of God analogy is explained in the letter.

Paul explains the shield of faith in Ephesians 2:1-10 NIV As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, (2) in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. (3) All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. (4) But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, (5) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. (6) And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, (7) in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- (9) not by works, so that no one can boast. (10) For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I personally like to call at The Shield of God’s Faithfulness.

He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
(Psalms 91:4 NIV)

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
(1 John 5:14 NIV)

Blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.
(Psalms 40:4 NIV)

Jonathan said to his young armor-bearer, "Come, let's go over to the outpost of those uncircumcised men. Perhaps the LORD will act in our behalf. Nothing can hinder the LORD from saving, whether by many or by few."
(1 Samuel 14:6 NIV)

 

[james1523]

Just curious here, where is the law of Noah defined? Which scriptures are these?

God made a covenant with Noah, and a covenant includes a set of laws (Genesis 9:4-6). This law was already in effect for the gentile world by the time that Moses came along. It is this law which is referred to in Acts 15:19-21 which is said the gentile converts should obey. In Judaism the laws have been passed down by oral tradition and are part of the oral Talmud, and were written down after the fall of Jerusalem.

Maybe you don't know this but the US Congress recognized these laws in 1991:

"Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded; Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws"

So the US congress does not base anything on the 10 commandments of Moses, but on the 7 laws of Noah.
So actually Christian gentiles should be following the 7 commandments of Noah (as confirmed in Acts 15), not the 10 commandments which are the law of Moses and apply to Jews only. In practice, except for the 7th Day Adventists, most Christians observe the 7 commandments anyway (and not the 10 laws of Moses), even without knowing what kind of law they are keeping.
Now when Jesus came along in the New Testament he effectively multiplied the number of commandments from 7 or so, to probably more than 100. To adultery he added lust, to murder he added hate. This is known as the law of the Spirit.

There are the three laws -
1) The law of Noah for Gentiles (around 7)
2) The law of Moses for Jews (six hundred or so)
3) The law of the Spirit for Christians (probably more than 100, a higher righteousness than Pharisees)

 

[B-A-C]

Maybe you don't know this but the US Congress recognized these laws in 1991:

I would hardly recognize the congress of the US as a moral authority. Especially given the state of the US today.
Also whether the laws of Noah apply or not, I would think all of the commandments repeated in the epistles (to the Gentiles) would still apply.

 

[DHC]

Hello B-A-C.

You made a number of statements in your previous post (# 6), that were questionable and
even some statements that were plainly incorrect, B-A-C. Here is one glaring example of a
statement of yours that was erroneous.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law

Notice the difference between your statement above and what the scripture actually states?


Now that I have your attention B-A-C, shall we proceed.

What may I ask B-A-C is a 'Gentile' according to your theology?

Hello B-A-C.

You said the following.

The Bible says those live without the law will perish by the law.

I quoted the following verse to correct your statement.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law

You did not seem to notice the difference between what you said and what the Bible actually states.
Carefully read what you wrote.

The Bible says those live without the law will perish by the law.

One of us is mistaken B-A-C, those who live without the law are under the law?
Forgive me if I am missing something B-A-C, but I do see a discernible difference.

 

[B-A-C]

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law

OK, Let's use your translation, (I gave you 12 other translations you ignored).
Your translation says "sinned" without the law. So obviously these people sinned. Also your translation says "will also perish" without the law.
So whether they know the law or not, they will perish. (not have eternal life) because they sinned.

Rom 6:23; For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

It seems all the nations are supposed to do what Jesus taught, not just the Jews.

Mark 6:18; For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife."

Why would John the Baptist tell a Gentile that adultery was unlawful? Polygamy was practiced in Rome.

Why would Hagar (an Egyptian) (Gen 16:1' Gen 16:3; Gen 21:9; Gen 25:12; ) be under the law if she wasn't a Jew?
Galatians 4:21-31;

 

[DHC]

Hello B-A-C.
Your simple statement in your earlier post # 6 was as follows.

The Bible says those live without the law will perish by the law.

Those who live without the law, or better still, anyone who did not grow up in Israel
at the time of Christ, i.e. a Gentile, will perish quite apart from the letter of the law.
Gentiles are not under the letter of the law and will not be judged according to that
law system.

No Gentile will be held to account for working on a sabbath day, I can assure you of
that B-A-C. No Gentile will ever be accused of breaking God's ten commandments,
because the Gentile nations were never given these commandments in the first instance.

In other words, the Gentiles were never the recipients of the written law or the letter of
the law. Gentiles are not under the written law, or the letter of the law, and never were
under the law of Moses.

Romans 4
15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Yes B-A-C you read that correctly, there is a definable relationship between a passage of legislation
and an offence. Where there is no law there will never be a violation of law. Gentiles cannot be
held accountable for any violation of the written law if they were not given that legislation.

So your statement 'The Bible says those live without the law will perish by the law.' Is an invalid
statement, there is no evidence to support that statement.

Everything that was a sin in the OT for Jews, is still a sin them and Gentiles under the New Testament.

This statement of your is yet another generalization and also an invalid statement, B-A-C.

There are a multitude of offences listed within the law of Moses, that in the Gentile world are simply
not offences. The law of Moses is a national law system B-A-C and applies only to the Jews.
I do not need to supply you with an array of laws that confirm this to be the case.

Shall we continue B-A-C, you made the following claim.

It even says the Gentiles who aren't circumcised yet keep the commandments, will judge the Jews
who are circumcised but do not keep the commandments.

The text does not specifically state what you stated B-A-C. You ommitted a very important line
that appears after these two verses in Romans, and a line that holds the key to understanding what
Paul is actually saying. Here is the text your referring to below.


Romans 2
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision
be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law,
will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor
of the Law?

We should be aware that the law was not written to save anyone, nor is it possible for a Jew
or even a Gentile to keep the law with any consistency. Paul is not stating a fact as such, but is
asking two questions, Paul is not literally saying that a Gentile will obey the law better than a Jew.
How could anyone for one moment think, that a Gentile has some inbuilt advantage over a Jew
when it comes to legal obedience.

We only need to read on a little further to see what Paul is actually saying in the wider context.

Romans 2
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit,
not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Circumcision is of the heart and that circumcision is performed by the Holy Spirit!

Not a legal obedience to the law and definitely not an obedience to the letter of the law. Tell me
B-A-C, you did not miss that extremely important part of Paul's sentence in the earlier quotation
did you? I hope not B-A-C. Here is that crucial part 'having the letter of the Law and circumcision'.

Paul is telling us the Jews have the letter of the law and circumcision, but the Gentiles
do not have either. Gentiles are not under the letter of the law, only the Jews are under the
letter of the law.

It is the inward regeneration wrought by the Spirit that allows a physical Jew to be obedient to God.
A spirit filled Jew has been spiritually circumcised and obeys the inner influence of the Holy Spirit.
The wider context does not allow the superficial interpretation that you forced from those two earlier
verses.

The law condemns and the law could never be obeyed by any Jew or any Greek.


Romans 7
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,
so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul a Jew was released from the constraint of the law, Paul is talking to the Jewish audience at Rome.
Paul is not talking directly to the Gentiles in this chapter, for the Gentiles were not under the law
of Mt Sinai. Paul serves in the newness of the Spirit and not the letter of the law!

Practically every commandment is repeated in the New Testament and written to Gentiles.
For example in Galations (which was a letter written to Gentiles).
Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

B-A-C, you are making claims that the text does not warrant, checques that you cannot cash.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality...

The word Paul uses here is 'immorality', Paul does not use the word 'adultery'. This is not a reference
by Paul to one of the ten commandments written in Exodus. That is a false claim B-A-C, the text does not
support that claim of yours. Adultery is a specific offence, immorality covers a broad canvas of offences.
If you see the word 'immorality' as a set of offences, then adultery is but one member of a virtual
infinite set of individual members.

Your looking for a correlation between adultery and the word 'immorality'.
There is no correlation evident and you do need to buy a dictionary.

There we have 3 items that were listed in the 10 commandments, envy, idolatry, immorality, (adultery) .

Not true at all B-A-C, as the other deeds mentioned clearly indicate that Paul is not pushing
a legal wheel barrow. Paul is using the general meaning of the descriptive words and not the
legal, letter form of the commandments.

Now for 'envy' which you once again see some association with coveting.

Covet means to yearn to possess something, so when you look at your neighbors oxen you want that oxen.
Whereas envy means a feeling of discontent or resentful longing aroused by someone else’s possessions.
They are different Greek verbs, describing quite different human feelings. One means to long for something
and the other means a discontentment is felt because one does not have something one desires.

If Paul meant to use 'coveting', Paul would simply have used 'coveting', after all the commandment
uses the term 'covet'.

Last but not least is the deed of the flesh 'idolatry', which is probably the closest to a commandment
that you will find in this verse. Though once again the letter of the law was not quoted by Paul.
Paul uses a simple and general term 'idolatry'.

I do not see a list of the ten commandments in Paul's writing and certainly not the letter of
the law. You have not refuted any position concerning the law with your haphazard and loose
interpretation of the text.

 

[swissfox]

Hello,

Just thought I'd post my 2 cents worth of a reply...

A little background on me....I got wrapped up in the Messianic Judaism movement for a few years, though I'm not in it anymore. Since then, I have revisited things I learned, and one of the best booklets I've read about this topic is from the United Church of God, and the booklet is titled "The New Covenant: Does it abolish God's Law?".

Blessings,

swissfox

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Hey Ezra,

The Bible tells us we are dead to the law of sin and death, and alive to God through Jesus Christ!

When you sin, give it to God. When you are happy, give thanks to God. When you are sad, give it to God.

We live to God! Jesus has made us his children. Halleluyah!

 

[Brighthouse]

What did the law provide? What is the purpose today to keep any part of the law? Are the Ten Commandments used today as part of anyone's salvation? if we look to keep the Old law in any way shape or form,then where is our own stand in Christ Jesus who fulfilled it? If a brother or sister looks to represent Jesus as his or her Savior,then they sure ought to know who he or she is representing.yes? Lets go back a bit to see just what the law before Jesus fulfilled it looked to accomplish in the first place shall we?

Lets look at the exact moment,when life changed for the children of Israel.( exodus 19:8!) look at the words we will do because those 3 words altered there position in what God was now going to provide them,from this point until Jesus came and died and rose again,the children of Israel had no hope whatsoever keeping the law! No more then we do today. Please read on from here verse 9 Now the Lord comes through a thick cloud to Moses,now the children who once could come towards the mountain cannot any longer!( verse 12-13) The law was not provided as a blessing,to the children,it was placed upon them to show them they themselves needed a savior as well!

Chapter 20 The Ten Commandment which is not a guideline which is made separate from the law itself,it is very much a part of the law itself. Through this, the law was based upon the works of man,no grace is ever established,no prayer is needed,and that is why prayer is not even talked about in the law. Let us step ahead a bit,Deut 28:1-15) do this and you receive,do it not and this is what you receive (15-45!!) Look at all those curses!!

It is why David prayed as he did to the Lord is psalms as well( psalm 51:10-12!!!) The reason David had to pray this way was because before Jesus, Holy Spirit could indeed be removed from one he came on! Ask Solomon,ask Moses,( 1 kings 11:9-13) for Moses look at( 2 cor 3:2-18!!) ok now let us go to the present.

The New Covenant what we as believers now live under. Answer to first question, what did the law provide? 2 things! 1.It brought the knowledge of sin itself( rom 3:19-20) This was not a bad thing,except for those under the law, they had no hope of ever escaping the bondage of the law either! 2. The law came to actually,hold on to your seats for this one!! The law came to actually increase sin!!!( rom 5:19-21)verse 20!

Now in all of the Gospels people quote much of the beginning of those gospels as to keeping the commandments,and as you know before the death and resurrection of Jesus all were still under the present law,fulfillment never took place until after the death of Jesus himself. When a person dies and leaves a will,can any of us receive anything until that person has died? Of course not,that will and testament is made for those to receive upon death,not before it. Jesus not only had to put himself to death and shed blood for us,but also for what he fulfilled!( heb 9:11-28!!!!)

The moment Jesus died,so did the Old covenant!( rom 10:4!!) This was never done so that now we can sin!! This was done so grace becomes greater then sin!( rom 6:1-14!!) verse 14!! Look now in this light to hebrews 8:3-13!!) verse 9 this is the Ten Commandments! The old was a shadow of the very good things TO COME!!( heb 10:1-2) The law brought believers under a consciousness of sin! Jesus came to free us from the consciousness!! That from all our Jesus did we indeed obtain through HIM a much better covenant on far better promises!!( heb 8:6)

Many wish to mix the old with the new in there lives,and by doing this,they have become just as Hebrews talks about!( heb 6:4-6) because they have fallen from grace themselves!!!!( gal 5:4-12!!!!) I feel the very same as Paul did!! verse 12!This is what heb 6:4-6 is talking about! So what is the law of Christ then? gal 6:2-5,and John 13:34 which takes the place of the ten commandments, for if you love one another as Christ loved you,you will follow Jesus LAW! Not stone! There is one other point i wish to make. Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior has already done everything he is ever going to do for each one of us!( 2 peter 1:3-11) If we wish to work out the very work of Jesus himself,then we must believe in what Jesus has already done!!( john 6:28-29!!!)

Faith has been given by God himself,and to all in the very same measure( Rom 12:3) ( acts 10:34) BUT!!!! ones own belief in HIS faith can sure be different!! For we must believe!! Jesus has already proved everything! ( rom 10:9-13!!!)

In all humbleness and meekness, but with great boldness have i made my case for my Jesus,it is up to us to believe or not believe,that is our only work! And if we believe then our action show that belief!( james 1:22) if we are going to represent a man we say we love, then we had sure better know whom we are talking about! This is no rebuke! This is just fact to me! We do not brag in our self we brag about what Jesus has done for each one who dares to believe HIM!!( 1 cor 1:4-9 and 1 cor 1:20-31!!) The Word is kept in our hearts,because Jesus lives through his words to everyone who believes him!( psalm 138:2) May Holy Spirit move upon each who read this to confirm his love and power,and to bring lasting peace and confidence fully establishing his word upon all of our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus name amen( rom 15:13)

 

[grandmamary1219]

Thank you so much for this well written and accurately stated account of the Holy scriptures, Brighthouse. Clearly the Holy Spirit is speaking through you in this post. I pray we all have ears to hear and eyes to see! In the current age of Grace there have come many false teachers who have been misleading God's sheep by twisting scripture to fit their own misguided interpretations. I thank God for a few with the ability to stand firm in God's truth as you have just demonstrated to us.

 

[B-A-C]

A seeming contradiction.

On one hand, we are no longer under the law. What does that mean?
On the other hand, the law remains.

Matt 5:17; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18; "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matt 5:19; "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So the requirements of the law didn't really change. If you sin, you will die.
What really changed is that now... Jesus took your place. He died for you. He paid the price for your sins. Now you don't have to.

Matt 7:12; "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Why would Jesus be telling people to do the law of the prophets? Notice the next two verses talk about the narrow gate and the wide gate.
Again in Matthew we see...

Matt 22:36; "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Why would Jesus still be teaching the law? Maybe parts of it still apply.

Luke 16:16; "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Luke 16:17; "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

Paul sometimes seems to contradict Jesus in this, but I don't think he really is.

Acts 13:38; "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Acts 13:39; and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Does this mean we are free from loving our neighbors and loving God? Or does this really mean we are free from the penalty of death?

We see in Acts a testimony of Ananias.

Acts 22:12; "A certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law, and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there,
Acts 22:13; came to me, and standing near said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very time I looked up at him.

So is being devout "by the standard of the law" a bad thing? I don't think so. Trying to get saved under it is another thing.
Paul himself said he never broke the law of the Jews.

Acts 25:8; while Paul said in his own defense, "I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."

Paul also says...

Rom 2:13; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Rom 3:21; But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Jesus of course is this righteousness that was manifested. He never sinned. He was "witnessed by the law". Meaning the law was the standard
he was held to determine if his actions were sinful or not.

Paul says much the same thing Jesus says in Matt 5:17;

Rom 3:31; Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Rom 7:12; So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Rom 8:1; Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2; For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

There is now no condemnation.... hmmmm.... many Christians stop there and believe that's all there is.
But it says "those who are in Christ Jesus". Now of course every Christian will say they are in Christ Jesus. But what really determines this?

John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:16; "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
John 14:17; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:18; "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 14:19; "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
John 14:20; "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

1 Jn 3:23; This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

So it seems those who keep the commandments are those "who are in Christ Jesus". Some will argue and say it's talking about the Holy Spirit here.
Ok, what does the Bible say about getting the Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

It seems believing in Jesus alone is not enough to receive the Holy Spirit. We also have to obey God in order to receive it.

Rom 8:3; For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4; so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

"who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit". Check Galatians 5:18-24; to see if you walking by the flesh or by the Spirit.

The requirements of the law still have to be fulfilled, just not by us. It was fulfilled by Jesus.
If none of the law matters... why are we told over 20 times in the New testament to keep the commandments?

Some really don't know what grace is. God's grace is free, but it isn't cheap.
God's grace does not mean do whatever you want, live however you want, I've got you covered.
God's grace means He knows your heart, he knows if you are trying to obey Him or not. Yes none of us can keep the commandments 100%.
Yes we all mess up ( Rom 3:23; ) but that's where grace comes in. Grace covers our mistakes. But it does not cover willfully continuing to practice
sinful living as a choice. ( Heb 10:26; )

 

[RJ]

Alive and fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17 17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

 

[Brighthouse]

There is no one alive, that when they die, they die and go to hell because of there own sin,For Jesus already shed his blood for all,they go to hell because they do not believe in what Jesus has already done!( rev 21:8!!) But for the COWARDLY and UNBELIEVING which leads to the rest spoken about, they go to hell not because of sin,but because they choose not to believe what our Jesus has already done,and yes those are under the law!

For they do not wish to receive the new covenant. We are not like they are! I sure am not! if you hold onto stone,you will crumble under that stone.( exodus 32:28) (3000 died that day!) Under our Jesus 3000 were saved!!( acts 2:41) a huge difference! I will take Jesus over the Law myself! Jesus is better then all the prophets, superior to angels, and Superior to Moses!( heb 1:1-14 and hebrews 3:1-6) And the consequences for those who do not believe this??( hebrews 4:1-10) and the cure!!!!( heb 4:11-16!) Rom 7:8!!! apart from the Law sin is dead!! So why would we ever wish to be associated with the law anymore?? ( rom 6:14!!)Grace is greater then sin,for those who believe! Jesus wins to me!!

 

[NicholaasMarks]

Hello All:

Contained within Jesus Christ's teaching is a new testament that springs out of the Old. He is bringing us into the new Biblical era where Almighty God is given his full righteous identity...The Owner of all the power and all the force in the universe and Jesus made known to us just how rich in knowledge God's word is because all of Jesus' miracles and his own resurrection tells the story of what is in store for those who upbuild a righteous spirit in Jesus' likeness. We too will become partakers in those righteous laws...after the 'great tribulations' that appear to be in full swing even now.

 

[B-A-C]

There is no one alive, that when they die, they die and go to hell because of there own sin,For Jesus already shed his blood for all,they go to hell because they do not believe in what Jesus has already done!( rev 21:8!!) But for the COWARDLY and UNBELIEVING which leads to the rest spoken about, they go to hell not because of sin,but because they choose not to believe what our Jesus has already done,and yes those are under the law!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
People go to hell because of sin. People don't enter heaven because of sin.
The difference with Christians isn't that they don't sin, it's that they are forgiven. But even that forgiveness has conditions upon it.

It is our actions we are judged on, not just our beliefs.

Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It doesn't say the unbelievers here. It says those who didn't do what they knew was right.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:5; Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Again, these people are punished for "gross immorality" and "going after strange flesh" and turning the grace of God into a license to sin". Not because of what they believe.

Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Those who receive the mark of the beast, will burn forever.
Those who keep the commandments AND their faith in Jesus will not.

Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

These people believed in Jesus, But were denied entrance into heaven because of their deeds.

Mar 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Continuing to practice certain sins, whether you are a believer or not.. will keep you out of heaven.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Pet 2:4; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
2 Pet 2:5; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2 Pet 2:6; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
2 Pet 2:7; and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
2 Pet 2:8; (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
2 Pet 2:9; then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

You can confess to know God all day long. The Bible says even the demons believe in God. Even the demons know who Jesus is.
(Jas 2:19; Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; )

Tit 1:16; They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

No where in the Bible does it says people will be cast into hell because of unbelief. But it does say.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Rom 14:10; But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

2 Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

It is our sin that separates us from God. Not what we say we believe.

Isa 59:2; But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

Why did God leave Adam and Eve in the garden, was it because they didn't believe in Him, or because they sinned against Him?

You go to hell because of sin. Not because of what you say you believe.
We are kept from the kingdom of God/Heaven because we keep on sinning willfully.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Belief in Jesus is required, but the problem is that people don't know what believing in Jesus means.
They think it simply means I believe a guy named Jesus lived on the earth 2000 years ago.

You can't get to heaven without Jesus, but you can't get there on faith alone.

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[B-A-C]

As a side note:

Not all protestants believe in the 5 sola's. In fact hardly any Pentecostals do and most evangelical churches do not.
The largest protestant denomination in the world - The Assemblies of God do not believe in faith alone.
(Wikipedia says the Anglican church is the largest, but that's because they divide the AoG church into smaller denominations by continent or country).

This saved by works things has gotten completely turned around somehow in many churches today.
What saved by works mean is that I believe I can get to heaven ALL BY MYSELF without any grace from Jesus.
I can give enough money to the poor, I can feed enough hungry people, I can help enough old ladies across the street. I'm a good person I don't need Jesus.
THAT is being saved by works.
As soon as I believe I'm a sinner and I need Jesus to be saved. I'm no longer trying to be saved by works.
I can still do good works, in fact we are told over and over again in the New Testament we should do good deeds.
But I am not depending on these works alone to get me into heaven.
Faith without works is dead. A tree that does not bear good fruit gets thrown into the fire.
Faith alone does not save you. This is a false teaching. I know every Calvinist/Baptist in the world will be upset at that saying. But it's the Bible
and I stand by it.

Eph 2:8-9; is not saying don't do good works, it's saying works alone will not save you.
In fact the very next verse says we were created to do good works.

 

[grandmamary1219]

I agree 100% with Brighthouse. The only unforgiven sin is "unbelief" at the Judgment Seat. And all of our "works" for those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus alone will undergo testing in the fire at the Bema seat judgment. Only those "works" which were done through us by Jesus will survive that fire. The rest will burn up as hay, wood, and stubble.

A Christian does not do the works of God apart from the prompting and enabling of the Holy Spirit. We cannot take ANY credit for any part of our salvation. It was all satisfied by the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf.

Repeating: Jesus paid the penalty for all sin save the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Unbelief is the unforgivable and unforgiven sin at judgment. Unbelief sends the unbeliever to hell. Period.

This is a vital doctrine to get correctly in our thinking. Otherwise we do not believe unto a saving faith. If we do not believe unto a saving faith, we are the ones who will hear Christ say Get away from Me, I never knew you.

Meditate upon this prayerfully and ask the Holy Spirit to bring a proper understanding to your soul.

 

[DHC]

Hello B-A-C.

Why would Jesus still be teaching the law? Maybe parts of it still apply.

What parts of the Mosaic law do you think Jesus is teaching?

 

[RJ]

As a side note:

Not all protestants believe in the 5 sola's. In fact hardly any Pentecostals do and most evangelical churches do not.
The largest protestant denomination in the world - The Assemblies of God do not believe in faith alone.
(Wikipedia says the Anglican church is the largest, but that's because they divide the AoG church into smaller denominations by continent or country).

This saved by works things has gotten completely turned around somehow in many churches today.
What saved by works mean is that I believe I can get to heaven ALL BY MYSELF without any grace from Jesus.
I can give enough money to the poor, I can feed enough hungry people, I can help enough old ladies across the street. I'm a good person I don't need Jesus.
THAT is being saved by works.
As soon as I believe I'm a sinner and I need Jesus to be saved. I'm no longer trying to be saved by works.
I can still do good works, in fact we are told over and over again in the New Testament we should do good deeds.
But I am not depending on these works alone to get me into heaven.
Faith without works is dead. A tree that does not bear good fruit gets thrown into the fire.
Faith alone does not save you. This is a false teaching. I know every Calvinist/Baptist in the world will be upset at that saying. But it's the Bible
and I stand by it.

Eph 2:8-9; is not saying don't do good works, it's saying works alone will not save you.
In fact the very next verse says we were created to do good works.

It is not saying to do good works either. It is clearly saying that your salvation has nothing to do with your works, of any kind, period. He backs this up by saying, if it were dependent on man they would brag about it. The Bible also says, that with out works, after salvation, that your faith is dead. It does not say "Your" works!! It says your faith!....it means that the trade mark of a Christian, is that he is baring works of the Holy Spirit through him. If you do not have this faith, you have not been saved in the first place!
From the foundation of the Universe, the only way any of this works, is that it is by God's works alone and none of us....The only way in which the Devil is defeated perfectly, is by all of God and none of us....all we do is believe and let God work through us.
Our salvation only comes from the free gift of Grace and Faith, which God clearly gives both to the believer!
And no, I am not a Calvanist or Baptist!

 

[B-A-C]

Good works may not get you into heaven. But faith alone won't either. Faith without works is dead.
Wile good deeds don't get you into heaven. Evil deeds can certainly keep you out of heaven.