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The Law of God, is it dead or alive or on life support?

Ezra Allen

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
70
In my recent swimming in God’s living word I have started to wonder about something.

Is The Law of the Old Testament completely dead? Is it partially alive? Is it thriving and breathing?

Does Paul say that we are not required to follow the law at all; don’t have any worries over how we live our lives on earth just love Jesus more than our drug(s) of choice?

Does Paul say that we are not required to follow the law; but that we should live in a way that is pleasing to God?

If so how do we know what way is pleasing to God?
 
In my recent swimming in God’s living word I have started to wonder about something.

Is The Law of the Old Testament completely dead? Is it partially alive? Is it thriving and breathing?

Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5). The Law of the Old Testament had many different functions. It covered legal issues, religious ceremony, diet, family relationships, economics to name a few. Also, Jesus says that he fulfills the whole law (Matthew 11) likening the law to prophecy.

I find the most helpful way to approach the laws of the old testament is to consider it as revelation. Even if the laws are no longer binding, they still have something to reveal about who God is and how his people are to live.
 
One thing is for sure. No matter what the state of mankind or religion in the world today might be. God's laws and will stand.

It's interesting, while we are told a few times in the NT that following the law won't save us.
We are told over 20 times to follow the commandments in the NT.

Paul wrote this... (to Gentiles no less)
1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

A lot of Christians like to quote these passages.....
Rom 8:35; Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The first isn't talking about Jesus' love for us, it's talking about their love for Him.
In response to the latter two verses, there is something that can separate us from the love of Christ. (keep in mind the love of Christ is not the salvation of Christ).

John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Jesus says He will love us and manifest Himself to us if we keep the commandments, but what if we don't?

1 Jn 5:2; By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 Jn 1:6; And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

It isn't God's law of will that is on life support, it is the human condition. God is God no matter what humans do or don't do.

Luke 16:17; "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 2:5; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
 
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I find the most helpful way to approach the laws of the old testament is to consider it as revelation. Even if the laws are no longer binding, they still have something to reveal about who God is and how his people are to live.

I love the wonderful way you said that.. The law is a revelation of who God is and how his people are to live.
 
In my recent swimming in God’s living word I have started to wonder about something.

Is The Law of the Old Testament completely dead? Is it partially alive? Is it thriving and breathing?

Does Paul say that we are not required to follow the law at all; don’t have any worries over how we live our lives on earth just love Jesus more than our drug(s) of choice?

Does Paul say that we are not required to follow the law; but that we should live in a way that is pleasing to God?

If so how do we know what way is pleasing to God?

Hello Ezra Allen.

Your post concerns an issue that has long been debated, Christianity and legalism. It may be helpful if we
firstly concentrate on the terminology that we use. From the outset we need to define the phrase, 'the law'
so that we all are on the same page.

Without a uniform definition of the this term 'the law', there can be no useful debate on this subject.

I have always read the phrase 'the law' to mean the whole Mosaic law, all 615 laws. Whereas someone
else from a different background may see 'the law' as referring to all the same laws, but not including the
ten commandments.

A slight difference of only 10 laws between the two positions, but a profound difference in the resulting
interpretation.

Another phrase that needs special attention is the phrase 'under the law'. I noticed in your post that you
used the phrase 'follow the law'. It may be better to use the strict Biblical phrase 'under the law', rather
than 'follow the law'. As the phrase 'follow the law' is vague, whereas 'under the law' is specific and the
phrase that appears in the scripture. It may seem a small point to make Ezra but we do need to be very
careful when reading and understanding the scripture.

The Bible uses the phrase 'under the law' for example, to refer to the people that were required the obey
the law. Gentile were never 'under the law' as such, only the nation of Israel was 'under the law'.

That will do for now Ezra, please give me your opinion on these two points, as I am curious as to
how you understand these phrases. Do you agree that we need definitive definitions in order to
commence any discussion on 'the law'?
 
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Gentile were never 'under the law' as such, only the nation of Israel was 'under the law'.

This has been refuted over and over again. The first time the law of Moses was read in Canaan (Israel) it was read to include Gentiles.
Ishmael (Abrahams non-Jewish son) was circumcised, even though he wasn't a Jew.
Timothy was circumcised even though he was a Samaritan.
Adam and Eve weren't Jews, but they broke "God's commandment" do not eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil.
Solomon said ALL men (not just Jews) should follow the commandments. ( Eccl 12:13; )
Paul said to the Corinthians (who were Gentiles) what matters is keeping the commandments. ( 1 Cor 7:19; )

Everything that was a sin in the OT for Jews, is still a sin them and Gentiles under the New Testament.
Even partiality is a sin. (even for Gentiles)

The Bible says those live without the law will perish by the law.
It even says the Gentiles who aren't circumcised yet keep the commandments, will judge the Jews who are circumcised but do not keep the commandments.

Practically every commandment is repeated in the New Testament and written to Gentiles. For example in Galations (which was a letter written to Gentiles).
Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There we have 3 items that were listed in the 10 commandments, envy, idolatry, immorality, (adultery) .

This was a commandment repeated to the Galatians as well.

Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

In fact most of the New Testament was written by Paul. He was the apostle to the Gentiles (in at least 3 different places).
And all of His epistles (letters) were written to Gentiles. Rome, Galatia, Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, and Timothy.
Every single one of them has several commandments from the OT listed in them.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=.

We could move on the Ephesians...

Eph 4:25; Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
Eph 4:26; BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
Eph 4:27; and do not give the devil an opportunity.
Eph 4:28; He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.

stealing and lying are in the commandments also.

........ It's the same in all of Paul's letters... I will post verses from the others as I have time.
 
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Colossians also...

Col 3:;5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
Col 3:6; For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
Col 3:7; and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8; But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
Col 3:9; Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,

Once again we see immorality, lying and idolatry.. all were commandments. (Colossians was written to Gentiles)
 
………….we need to define the phrase, 'the law' so that we all are on the same page. Without a uniform definition of the this term 'the law', there can be no useful debate on this subject………please give me your opinion…………Do you agree that we need definitive definitions in order to commence any discussion on 'the law'?

Why yes we do need to define the word(s) that are used for describing the law. I dived into Psalm 119 (my favorite section of scripture) and seen that the 119th Psalm uses 8 words to describe God’s inscribed revelation to us: It uses the verses: law, word, judgments, testimonies, commandments, statutes, precepts, and again it is defined with the term of word, this term has a different definition than the earlier mentioned term of word.


Law as from Psalm 119:1,97 (torah, used 25 times): “Its parent verb means ‘teach’ or ‘direct’; therefore coming from God it means both ‘law’ and ‘revelation.’ It can be used of a single command or of a whole body of law.”

Ancient Hebraic Pictographs define the word used in our translations as Throw/Rain A throwing of the finger to show a direction to walk or live. The throwing of an arrow. The throwing down of water in rain. Throw/Rain/Teach: To point the way one is to walk in life, teach, shoot, archer, cast, teacher, rain, laid, direct, inform, instruct, show, shooter, through watered Teaching: The direction one is to take in life. fear, afraid, terrible, dreadful, reverence, fearful


Word as from Psalm 119:9 (dabar, used 24 times): The idea is of the spoken word, God’s revealed word to man. “Proceeding from his mouth and revealed by him to us.”

Which ancient Hebrew defines as Speak/Word/Continue: A continuation of segments, which fill the whole. Word: A chain of words blended together to form sentences. Word: [Hebrew and Aramaic] word, speech, say, speaking, byword, matter, speak, talking Speak/Ear A chain of words blended together to form sentences. Speak: [Hebrew and Aramaic] speak, utter, say Speak /Word Chain or words to form a sentence. Also a sickness as a break in the chain of the body. Speak: [Hebrew and Aramaic] say, speak, answer, command, tell, call, promise Branch: The conglomeration of branches of the tree. bough, branch Firstfruits: In the sense of a great filling, fullness


Example of the word Judgments is found in Psalm 119:7 (mispatim, used 23 times): “From shaphat, to judge, determine, regulate, order, and discern, because they judge concerning our words and works; show the rules by which they should be regulated; and cause us to discern what is right and wrong, and decide accordingly.”

Pictograph definitions of this word is Judge: To rule over cases of dispute or wrong doing. [Hebrew and Aramaic] judge, plead, avenge, condemn, execute, judgment, defend, deliver, magistrate judgment: judgment, manner, right, cause, ordinance, lawful, order, worthy, fashion, custom, discretion, law, measure, sentence Sheriff: [Aramaic only] sheriff


Verse Psalm 119:2 uses the word Testimonies (edut/edot, used 23 times): This word is related to the word for witness. To obey His testimonies “signifies loyalty to the terms of the covenant made between the Lord and Israel.”

Going into the ancient Hebrew pictographs this word is defined as Witness: It is written as a picture of the eye, and a picture of the door. Combined these mean "see the door". As coming to a tent a tent of meeting and entering in. A place, time or event that is repeated again and again. Witness: An event or persons testimony recounting another event or person. Witness/Again: A repetition of time either definite or indefinite. [Hebrew and Aramaic] Until: A determinate period of time.


The word Commandments as used in Psalm 119:6 (miswah/miswot, used 22 times): “This word emphasizes the straight authority of what is said . . . the right to give orders.”

Pictographs basically mirrors our understanding of this word from strongs Command: command, charge, commandment, appoint, bade, order, commander. Command: commandment, precept, law, ordinance


The word Statutes as from Psalm 119:5,8 (huqqim, used 21 times): The noun is derived from the root verb “engrave” or “inscribe”; the idea is of the written word of God and the authority of His written word. “Declaring his authority and power of giving us laws.”

Hebraic Pictograph says of this word statutes Inscribe/ Custom: The pictograph is a picture of a wall representing a separation, and a picture of the sun at the horizon representing the idea of "coming together". Combined these mean "separation and coming together". A custom brings a people separated together. Inscribe /Custom: The appointment of a specific time, function or duty. A custom as something that is appointed. Inscribe: To write a decree or custom (lawgiver, governor, decree, grave, portray, law, printed, set, note, appoint)

Precepts from Psalm 119:15 for example (piqqudim, used 21 times): “This is a word drawn from the sphere of an officer or overseer, and man who is responsible to look closely into a situation and take action. . . . So the word points to the particular instructions of the Lord, as of one who cares about detail.”

Hebraic Pictograph Oversee/Overseer/ Oversight: The role of the overseer is to watch over, direct, command, chastise, review and count those in his charge for the purpose of producing work. Oversee: To closely inspect. Count: As an overseeing of numbers. number, visit, punish, appoint, commit, miss, set, charge, governor, lack, oversight, officer, count, empty, ruler, overseer, judgement Overseer: One who carefully watches over. officer, overseer, governor, charge Ward: The area inspected by an overseer. Statute: The orders and commands of the overseer. precept, commandment, statute Oversight: A careful watching over. Number: As counted. visitation, office, charge, oversight, officer, ordering, account, custody, number Number/Appointment: Also an appointed place. number, commandment, appointed Deposit: The produce of the work that is watched over. delivered, store


Word is the second term used as found for example in Psalm 119:11 (imrah, used 19 times): Similar in meaning to dabar, yet a different term. “The ‘word’ may denote anything God has spoken, commanded, or promised.”

Pictograph from ancient times Order/Word An arrangement or placement of something creating order. Speak: A careful arrangement of words or commands. speak, say, talk, promise, tell, commune, pronounce, utter, command. Word: An arrangement of words. Thing: As something that is arranged. In Hebrew thought words contain substance just as physical objects do. Plague: The re-ordering of a population, word, thing, matter, act, chronicle, saying, commandment, pestilence, plague, murrain. Wilderness: A place of order, a sanctuary. Manner: The order which something is performed.
 
This has been refuted over and over again. The first time the law of Moses was read in Canaan (Israel) it was read to include Gentiles.
The Bible says those live without the law will perish by the law.

Hello B-A-C.

You made a number of statements in your previous post (# 6), that were questionable and
even some statements that were plainly incorrect, B-A-C. Here is one glaring example of a
statement of yours that was erroneous.
The Bible says those live without the law will perish by the law.
Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law

Notice the difference between your statement above and what the scripture actually states?


Now that I have your attention B-A-C, shall we proceed.
The first time the law of Moses was read in Canaan (Israel) it was read to include Gentiles.
What may I ask B-A-C is a 'Gentile' according to your theology?
 
Hello Ezra.

Thanks for the lengthy and informative reply to my question.

You obviously went to a great deal of trouble to reply and for that I am grateful.

Though it pains me to draw your attention to the question I actually asked.
we need to define the phrase, 'the law'
Why I asked for Ezra was the definition of the phrase itself 'the law'. Not so much the meaning
of the word 'law'.

There are many instances where Paul for one uses this phrase 'the law', for example.

Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The phrase 'the law' has a specific interpretation according to Paul.

When Paul utters the phrase 'the law' in the verse above, what law or laws, is Paul referring to?

Some say the sacrificial law, some others will say, all the law except for the ten commandments.

There are some folk who interpret 'the law' in the passage above to mean the entire written law
contained within the Mosaic covenant.

There is not a common standard meaning that is applied to this phrase, 'the law'. So much
debate ensues due to the various interpretations, that we do need to address this issue.

Someone must eventually set up a list of the definitions of these important terms.

What sayeth you to this Ezra?
 
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12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law

Notice the difference between your statement above and what the scripture actually states?

Which translation would you like?

(GW) Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.

(KJV) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

(NASB) For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

(NIV) All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

(NLT) When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

(AMP) All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.

Perish, perish,perish,perish, condemned.. even without the law.
 
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12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law

Notice the difference between your statement above and what the scripture actually states?

Which translation would you like?

(GW) Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.

(KJV) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(NASB) For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
(NIV) All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

(NLT) When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law,will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.

(AMP) All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.

Those without the law will perish, be condemned to destruction, be destroyed, perish without the law. There is no version that says they will "live" without the law.
Every version says they will die (perish) without the law.

What may I ask B-A-C is a 'Gentile' according to your theology?

Anyone who is not a Jew, who is not of Jewish descent. A stranger to the Jews. A sojourner in their land.

For example...

Jos 8:35; There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel with the women and the little ones and the strangers who were living among them.

Jos 8:33; All Israel with their elders and officers and their judges were standing on both sides of the ark before the Levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, the stranger as well as the native. Half of them stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, just as Moses the servant of the LORD had given command at first to bless the people of Israel.

In this case, the strangers were not Jews. Rahab the Harlot was in this assembly. She would have been one of the strangers (as she was not a Jew).
The word "native" above does not mean they were born in this land (this was less than 2 months after wondering in the desert for 40 years). It means
their ancestors were born in this land. Rahab was a Canaanite who came to live with the Jews after Jericho was destroyed.

Ishmael was not the offspring of Sarai, so he wasn't a Jew. The line of Israel goes through Isaac. Not Hagar.
 
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In my recent swimming in God’s living word I have started to wonder about something.

Is The Law of the Old Testament completely dead? Is it partially alive? Is it thriving and breathing?

Does Paul say that we are not required to follow the law at all; don’t have any worries over how we live our lives on earth just love Jesus more than our drug(s) of choice?

Does Paul say that we are not required to follow the law; but that we should live in a way that is pleasing to God?

If so how do we know what way is pleasing to God?

If you follow the Old testament law you still won't get into the kingdom because there are only 600 or so laws, and Jesus said we had to keep the New Testament law of the Spirit to enter the kingdom (Matt 5:20, Rom 8:2) which probably has 5000 or more laws.
There are a number of laws of the old testament, the one pre-dating the Law of Moses is still active (sometimes called the laws of Noah), but the Law of Moses is inactive as far as Gentiles are concerned, and it has always been that way since God gave those laws to the Israelites not to other nations.
The law itself is a dead thing, it cannot give life (Gal 3:21), only Christ the Spirit can give life (Rom 8:2). A better way is to describe the law as "active" or "inactive", rather than "dead or alive".
The Council at Jerusalem decided that Gentiles don't have to keep the Old Testament law (of Moses), that is recorded in Acts 15.
As far as the Christian is concerned, they are dead to the law (of Moses) and alive to God (Gal 2:19, Rom 7:4).

In summary, Noah's law is active today for gentiles (but not Christians), the law of Moses is active today only for Jews (but not Gentiles or Christians), and the only law which is active today for the Christian is the law of the Spirit (Rom 8:2). The law of the Spirit is a much harder law than the law of Noah or Moses, because it also deals with the intents and thoughts of the heart (greed, lust etc), whereas the Law of Moses and Noah's law are more concerned with outward behavior. The law of the Spirit might have something like 5000 laws, whereas the law of Noah is about 8 or 9 I think, and law of Moses is 600 or so.
 
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Jesus fulfilled the Law for us (believers), and we (believers) are now under grace, covered in His perfection as redeemed believers. Thank God!

So the Law is not dead, and all who reject Messiah will be judged by it because they have rejected Him who fulfilled the Law for them (His perfect sacrifice once for all to those who believe.) See Matthew 5:17-19
 
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Well Christians aren't under the penalty of the law. But (unsaved) Gentiles will still be judged by it.

Unsaved Gentiles are under the law of Noah which pre-dates the Law of Moses and covers all Gentiles from Adam, Eve, Abel and Cain onwards. The law of Noah is almost identical to the Law of Moses as far as morality is concerned. It doesn't contain the details and specifics relating to the nation of Israel.
 
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Hello Ezra.
Shalom DHC
Thanks for the lengthy and informative reply to my question.
Thank you for the compliment however it is not needed.
You obviously went to a great deal of trouble to reply and for that I am grateful.
No trouble at all. I love the word of God. It is my pillow at night.
Though it pains me to draw your attention to the question I actually asked.
No pain. The pain Our Lord Jesus went through was far greater for something that many consider a message of foolish. I understood the question and I’ll clarify the meaning behind my answer on it in a moment.
Why I asked for Ezra was the definition of the phrase itself 'the law'. Not so much the meaning
of the word 'law'.
def·i·ni·tion noun \ˌde-fə-ˈni-shən\
: an explanation of the meaning of a word, phrase, etc. : a statement that defines a word, phrase, etc.
: a statement that describes what something is
: a clear or perfect example of a person or thing

mean·ing noun \ˈmē-niŋ\
: the idea that is represented by a word, phrase, etc.
: the idea that a person wants to express by using words, signs, etc.
: the idea that is expressed in a work of writing, art, etc.

There are many instances where Paul for one uses this phrase 'the law', for example.

Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The phrase 'the law' has a specific interpretation according to Paul.

When Paul utters the phrase 'the law' in the verse above, what law or laws, is Paul referring to?

Some say the sacrificial law, some others will say, all the law except for the ten commandments.

There are some folk who interpret 'the law' in the passage above to mean the entire written law
contained within the Mosaic covenant.

There is not a common standard meaning that is applied to this phrase, 'the law'. So much
debate ensues due to the various interpretations, that we do need to address this issue.

Someone must eventually set up a list of the definitions of these important terms.

What sayeth you to this Ezra?

ButG1161 ifG1487 ye be ledG71 of the Spirit,G4151 ye areG2075 notG3756 underG5259 the law.G3551
(Galatians 5:18 KJV+)

First from Strong’s Plus

G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

LXX related word(s)
H1697 davar
H1881 dat
H2703 chuqqah
H2706 choq
H4687 mitsvah
H4941 mishpat
H6600 pitgam
H8452 torah

Next from Thayer

νόμος
nomos
Thayer Definition:
1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
1a) of any law whatsoever
1a1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
1a1a) by the observance of which is approved of God
1a2) a precept or injunction
1a3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
1b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
1c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love
1d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals)
Citing in TDNT: 4:1022, 646


There is a lot of debate on this issue and many other issues when it comes to the word of God. I believe this debate comes from when we try to apply Western (Greek) thinking to what is basically Eastern (Hebrew) thinking. The 2 ways of thinking are miles and miles apart like Mars and Venus apart. Nowhere in scripture does God ever desire to unite His ways with the ways of the world.

What are we talking about when we say Hebrew thinking or Greek thinking? Let us begin by talking about thoughts and words. Another way of describing thoughts is meaning. What is meaning?

With very strict observation, you will find that in practice we use the term in two principal ways: if someone asks me the meaning of a word in another language, I give him a word in his language which best expresses the same thing as that word.

Notice that we never, therefore, know the meaning directly, but only through a symbol - a word or linguistic expression. I have no way of knowing your meaning except by the language you use to express it. I cannot possibly tell what you mean except by what you say.

Paul observed the different outlooks in his first letter to the Corinthians. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, (1 Corinthians 1:22 NIV)

Greek thought views the world through the mind (abstract thought). Ancient Hebrew thought views the world through the senses (concrete thought).

Concrete thought is the expression of concepts and ideas in ways that can be seen, touched, smelled, tasted and/or heard. All five of the senses are used when speaking and hearing and writing and reading the Hebrew language.

Abstract thought is the expression of concepts and ideas in ways that cannot be seen, touched, smelled, tasted or heard. Hebrew never uses abstract thought as English does.

Today’s English Bibles are actually abstract English words translating the original Hebrew concrete words. Translators often translate this way because the original Hebrew makes no sense when literally translated into English.

Greek thought describes objects in relation to its appearance. Hebrew thought describes objects in relation to its function.

A deer and an oak are two very different objects; we would never describe them in the same way with our Greek form of descriptions. The Hebrew word for both of these objects is ayil because the functional descriptions of these two items are identical to the ancient Hebrews; therefore, the same Hebrew word is used for both. The Hebraic definition of ayil is "a strong leader".

A deer stag is one of the most powerful animals of the forest and is seen as "a strong leader" among the other animals of the forest. Also the oak tree's wood is very hard compared to other trees such as the pine which is soft and is seen as a "strong leader" among the trees of the forest.

Notice the two different translations of the Hebrew word ayil in Psalms 29:9. The NASB translates "The voice of the LORD makes the deer to calve" while the NIV translates it as "The voice of the LORD twists the oaks". The literal translation of this verse in Hebrew thought would be; "The voice of the LORD makes the strong leaders turn".

When translating the Hebrew into English, the translator must give a Greek description to this word which is why we have two different ways of translating this verse. This same word is also translated as a "ruler" in 2 Kings 24:15, who is a man who is a strong leader.

Another example of Greek thought would be the following description of a common pencil: "it is yellow and about 8 inches long". A Hebrew description of the pencil would be related to its function such as "I write words with it". Notice that the Hebrew description uses the verb "write" while the Greek description uses the adjectives "yellow" and "long". Because of Hebrew's form of functional descriptions, verbs are used much more frequently then adjectives. The Greek culture describes objects in relation to the object itself. The Hebrew culture describes objects in relation to the Hebrew himself. The Greek description portrays the pencil's relationship to itself by using the word "is". The Hebrew describes the pencil in relation to himself by saying "I write". Because Hebrew does not describe objects in relation to itself, the Hebrew vocabulary does not have the word "is".

Greek nouns are words which refer to a person, place or thing. Hebrew nouns refer to the action of a person place or thing. Hebrew’s are active people and their vocabulary reflects this lifestyle. The Greek culture recognizes the words such as a knee and a gift as nouns which by themselves impart no action. But in the Hebrew vocabulary the nouns come from the same root word because they are related, not in appearance, but in action. The Hebrew word for knee is berak and literally means "the part of the body that bends". The Hebrew word for a gift is berakah, meaning "what is brought with a bent knee". The verb from the root word is barak, meaning "to bend the knee". As you can see, both Hebrew verbs and nouns have action associated with them where the Greek nouns do not.

A Greek description of God would be "God is love" which describes God in relation to God. A Hebrew description would be "God loves me" describing God in relationship to myself.

The Hebrew mind asks “What must I do?”, but the Greek mind asks “Why must I do it?” The Hebrew view of ultimate virtue is to follow God, whilst the Greeks seek self-expression.

The Hebrew mind thinks of the Beauty of holiness, while the Greek mind seeks the holiness of beauty.
 
Without the law, there is no sin.

In fact through the law comes the knowledge of sin. ( Rom 3:20; )
If there is no law, there is no sin. ( Rom 5:13; )
Where there is more law, there is more sin ( Rom 5:20; )
Can we still sin, even though we aren't under the law but grace? ( Rom 6:15; )
Apart from the law, sin is dead and has no power ( Rom 7:9; )

Some people say unbelief is the only sin. However the Bible does not say unbelief is a sin anywhere in the Bible.
While it's true faith in Jesus required to be saved, (John 3:16; ) and it's true that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6; ) neither verse says it is a sin.
It's also true that those who don't believe in Jesus are already judged. (John 3:18; )

The other thought here is, that if unbelief is a sin, and faith comes only from God, then caused this unbelief. However the Bible says God cannot sin. ( Jas 1:13; )
So if unbelief is a sin, it cannot be caused by God.

In addition to the other verses about Gentiles and the law I would add the following.
In Romans 1, starting at about verse 18 or so. We see people who know who God is.. but yet start practicing all kinds of evil.
Homosexuality, idolatry, envy, murder, strife, disobedience, deceit, gossiping, etc...
As we move into Romans 2, it says we shouldn't judge those who do these things. But it says God is going to judge them.
Verse 6 says God will render to EVERY man according to his deeds.
Verse 7 says those who do good deeds will have honor glory and immortality, verses 8 and 9 talk about the ungodly. (Jews and Gentiles)
Verse 12 says even if you don't know the law, you will still perish without it. (even Gentiles)
Verse 13 says it is the doers of the law that will be justified.
Verses 14 and 15 say the Gentiles weren't given the law, but even so ...

Rom 2:14; For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15; in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
Rom 2:16; on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

They will still be judged by the law, because it written on their hearts and they "instinctively" do the things of the law.
In fact verse 12 says...

(NLT) Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
The verses leading to verse 13 are talking about Gentiles...
the next four verses are also talking about Gentiles. (13 through 16).

The bottom line is without the law there is no sin, in fact sin can not be defined without the law.
There is no way to say this is a sin, and this isn't a sin without the law.
It is impossible to name a sin that isn't contained in the law.


In James 2 verses 7 through 14, we see that adultery is a sin.
partiality is a sin, murder is a sin. (verses 9-11) These are sins because the law says they are sin.
In Exod 20:1; God is the one who spoke these into law. It wasn't man.
These are God's laws, not man's laws.

As Christians we are covered by the blood of Jesus ( Isa 1:18; )
But the unsaved person who believes he will not be judged by the law is mistaken. He will be judged by his deeds.
(Matt 16:27; John 5:29; Rom 2:6; 2 Cor 5:10; Tit 1:16; Rev 2:5; Rev 2:19; Rev 2:26; Rev 20:12-13; etc..)
 
Unsaved Gentiles are under the law of Noah which pre-dates the Law of Moses and covers all Gentiles from Adam, Eve, Abel and Cain onwards. The law of Noah is almost identical to the Law of Moses as far as morality is concerned. It doesn't contain the details and specifics relating to the nation of Israel.

Just curious here, where is the law of Noah defined? Which scriptures are these?
 
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