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The Image of The Beast

Hi Billy, I want to be careful how I say things, I care about you Bill.

I have looked carefully at those horses, let us go to those verses:

Zec 6:1-8
(1) And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
(2) In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
(3) And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
(4) Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
(5) And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
(6) The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.
(7) And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.
(8) Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.

So in these visions it mentions chariots, and for each chariot, which are 4, they are being pulled by a plurality of horses.

The order that it gives are first the red, secondly the black, thirdly the white, and fourthly the grisled and bay horses.

But the order in Revelations, of it's four horses, is this:

Rev 6:2
(2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Rev 6:4
(4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Rev 6:5-6
(5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
(6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Rev 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The order is completely different than Zechariah, and in Zechariah white horses follow after the black horses, but in Revelations it shows nothing like that, for it is first the white, than the red, and AFTER THAT THE BLACK.

And the last horses in Zechariah are grisled and some are bae, but in Revelations the last horse is pale.

I will get more into detail on this, but is it wise to make the horses of Zechariah to fit with the horses of Revelations ?
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

And what did the Holy Spirit tell you? Jesus tells us that he's going to send the paraclete, and it is the Holy Spirit that will give us fullness of knowledge.

It is through the Holy Spirit that we can understand the fullness of the scripture, not by our own means but only by the means of God.

So we know that the Holy Spirit speaks to us, but how can a person who only uses the scripture as a form of confirmation actually understand the words of the Holy Spirit, if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him? Or doesn't recognize the Holy Spirit even though he may have the Holy Spirit in him?

The apostles understood the Old Testament better than most people of this day and age. But they did not understand the fullness of it until the Holy Spirit came upon them. You can see the difference, when Jesus walked with the apostles on the road to Emmaus, he spoke the scripture to them and they didn't fully understand it. They said that it was like a fire burning within them but they didn't understand the fullness of it. It wasn't until after receiving the Holy Spirit that it was made clear to them.

This is the problem with man not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not receiving the Holy Spirit and then trying to figure out the fullness of the scripture without God's help.

So please let the Holy Spirit Come Into You let it fill your heart and then see what the eyes of the Holy Spirit that you may understand scripture.
 
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

And what did the Holy Spirit tell you? Jesus tells us that he's going to send the paraclete, and it is the Holy Spirit that will give us fullness of knowledge.

It is through the Holy Spirit that we can understand the fullness of the scripture, not by our own means but only by the means of God.

So we know that the Holy Spirit speaks to us, but how can a person who only uses the scripture as a form of confirmation actually understand the words of the Holy Spirit, if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him? Or doesn't recognize the Holy Spirit even though he may have the Holy Spirit in him?

The apostles understood the Old Testament better than most people of this day and age. But they did not understand the fullness of it until the Holy Spirit came upon them. You can see the difference, when Jesus walked with the apostles on the road to Emmaus, he spoke the scripture to them and they didn't fully understand it. They said that it was like a fire burning within them but they didn't understand the fullness of it. It wasn't until after receiving the Holy Spirit that it was made clear to them.

This is the problem with man not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not receiving the Holy Spirit and then trying to figure out the fullness of the scripture without God's help.

So please let the Holy Spirit Come Into You let it fill your heart and then see what the eyes of the Holy Spirit that you may understand scripture.
I have the Holy Spirit and the baptism, and not all see it your way, I think because I am not seeing it your way, that is really why you are saying I do not have the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit reveals things, he does not contradict what it says, nor does he give a mystical meaning.

There may be some slite similarities, but it is not the same.

The bible actually says to compare the word with the word, and that there is no private interpretation.

In the Catholic church there is a lot of mysticism.
 
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

And what did the Holy Spirit tell you? Jesus tells us that he's going to send the paraclete, and it is the Holy Spirit that will give us fullness of knowledge.

It is through the Holy Spirit that we can understand the fullness of the scripture, not by our own means but only by the means of God.

So we know that the Holy Spirit speaks to us, but how can a person who only uses the scripture as a form of confirmation actually understand the words of the Holy Spirit, if he doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him? Or doesn't recognize the Holy Spirit even though he may have the Holy Spirit in him?

The apostles understood the Old Testament better than most people of this day and age. But they did not understand the fullness of it until the Holy Spirit came upon them. You can see the difference, when Jesus walked with the apostles on the road to Emmaus, he spoke the scripture to them and they didn't fully understand it. They said that it was like a fire burning within them but they didn't understand the fullness of it. It wasn't until after receiving the Holy Spirit that it was made clear to them.

This is the problem with man not using the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not receiving the Holy Spirit and then trying to figure out the fullness of the scripture without God's help.

So please let the Holy Spirit Come Into You let it fill your heart and then see what the eyes of the Holy Spirit that you may understand scripture.
I think your words are more said like a power trip, uplift self abase the other, make oneself look spiritual.

It would be nice if you could just discuss the scriptures, and really get into it.
 
And in truth no one knows everything.

1Co 13:12
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
 
So far what you revealed of Zechariah, you have not shown in any way how things harmonize with scripture.
 
Hello guys.

Here is more on Zechariah:

Zec 6:1-8
(1) And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
(2) In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
(3) And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
(4) Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
(5) And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
(6) The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.
(7) And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.
(8) Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.

Now certain things mean different things in certain parts of the bible depending on context and what it is talking about.

Colors are used in different ways in the bible, such as getting white garments which represents the righteousness of the saints, and some colors like red in certain cases point to the blood of the lamb, but concerning countries, these colors always tend to have a different meaning.

And in the 4 horses of Revelation, it gives good detail.

Now concerning these specific chariots (in Zechariah) with their horses, it gives different details, then does Revelation 6.

And these chariots and possibly with the horses, points to the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth, which seems to speak of some type of angelic beings, what kind God knowns, but it seems to pertain to ones pertaining to judgments, that go into countries, such as the north country, south country etc.

Now the word north in the bible, sometimes points to a specific country in most bible verses, but not always to the same one in every case, you must take things in context.

Now in Daniel chapter 11, within that context the king of the south points to Egypt, and the king of the north points to Syria, but it is not always so in every scripture in the bible, that is why read the context.

And these chariots and horses within the certain countries makes me think of the 4 beasts of Daniel, but specifically to these verses:

Dan 7:2-3
(2) Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
(3) And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Notice the similar wording:

Dan 7:2-3
(2) Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
(3) And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Zec 6:5
(5) And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Very similar wording, such as the four winds of heaven, and the four spirits of the heavens.

Now here is a comment on Zechariah:

(John Gill)

(...and if of angels, they may be compared to "horses", because strong and swift to do the will of God; and to
"red" ones, because they are the executioners of his wrath and vengeance on wicked men: but if by "the chariots" are meant the monarchies, then by these "red horses" must be designed the Babylonians and Chaldeans, so called because their soldiers were clothed in red, and their chariots were like flaming torches; and they were sanguinary, cruel, and bloody in their tempers, and in their actions to the Jews; and were signified by Nebuchadnezzar's head of gold in his image; see Nam_2:3,...
...Zechariah 6:6
The black horses which are therein,.... Which were in the second chariot: no further mention is made of the red horses in the first chariot, because the kingdom of the Chaldeans was now extinct: these design the
Medes and Persians:
go forth into the north country: into the country of Babylon or Chaldea, which lay north of Judea; see Jer_1:13 and other places; these went to Babylon, took that, and seized on the empire, and delivered the Jews, who were captives there:
and the white go forth after them; the
Grecians under Alexander, who went after the Medes and Persians into the same country, and fought Darius the Persian, and conquered him:
and the grisled go forth toward the south country;
the Romans under Julius Caesar, Augustus, and others before them, who went into Egypt, which lay south of Judea, Dan_11:5 and conquered that, and other nations, and set up the fourth kingdom or monarchy.)


The only one not mentioned here in the comments are the bae horses, which in the 4th chariot, there were both grisled horses and bae horses, which of the bae horses, it says this:

"the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth".

No doubt there is an aspect of the Roman empire here which conquered mightily throughout the earth, but it may also include religious Rome, and the future 10 horns.

Concerning the grisled horses it seems to transition from part of the broken Grecian empire to the Roman empire, in this particular case in Zechariah.

So to me this seems to fit perfectly, which Zechariah speaks of angelic beings but also countries.

And it does not fit with Revelation chapter 6, which speaks nothing about the four winds of heaven, or the four spirits of the heavens, and the four horses of Revelations, are to happen in a future time, within the first half of the future tribulation period, under the 4 first seals.
 
I have the Holy Spirit and the baptism, and not all see it your way, I think because I am not seeing it your way, that is really why you are saying I do not have the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit reveals things, he does not contradict what it says, nor does he give a mystical meaning.

There may be some slite similarities, but it is not the same.

The bible actually says to compare the word with the word, and that there is no private interpretation.

In the Catholic church there is a lot of mysticism.
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Father are one to say that the Holy Spirit is not mysticism is foolishness. To say that the holy spirit is not spiritual is foolishness. To say that mysticism is not from God is foolishness.

You have no idea what you're saying.
 
God is a spirit.

And yes I believe in the spiritual, but not what is known as mysticism, I know that there is a certain definition given to the word mysticism, but in Christian circles, when you refer to mysticism, it is in a negative way.

When I speak of mysticism, it is not just the simple definition that has been given to it in some dictionaries, but rather to things like this:

(Mysticism: A Biblical and Rational Examination of Its Doctrinal Dangers and Historical Roots - Updated American Standard Version)

(...The term “mysticism” originates from the Greek word mystēs, meaning “initiate,” related to religious secret rites, especially in Greco-Roman mystery religions. This esoteric idea eventually crept into Christian thought through early church fathers influenced by Platonism and Neoplatonism, and later through monastic traditions and Roman Catholic contemplative practices. Its emphasis on subjective feelings, private revelations, and experiential spirituality
departs from the clear, propositional, and didactic nature of biblical truth....)

This stuff has been spoken against for a very long time, and some people think that just get some type of feeling, some type of private revelation, some type of religious experience, depend on that, and bam that is the Holy Ghost, that is what I am talking about.

There is no private interpretation, now can the Holy Ghost speak directly to you and show you what a scripture means ? Of course, but it will align with what the word says, and can you have an experience with the Holy Ghost, sure, but it will always align with the word.

And the word of God says this:

Tit 1:9
(9) Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1Co 2:13
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Joh 6:63
(63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Read up on religious mysticism, and the doctrines of the past.
 
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Now let us get to a question.

First here is the scripture:

Rev 13:11
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

What kind of beast is it referring to here ?
 
God is a spirit.

And yes I believe in the spiritual, but not what is known as mysticism, I know that there is a certain definition given to the word mysticism, but in Christian circles, when you refer to mysticism, it is in a negative way.

When I speak of mysticism, it is not just the simple definition that has been given to it in some dictionaries, but rather to things like this:

(Mysticism: A Biblical and Rational Examination of Its Doctrinal Dangers and Historical Roots - Updated American Standard Version)

(...The term “mysticism” originates from the Greek word mystēs, meaning “initiate,” related to religious secret rites, especially in Greco-Roman mystery religions. This esoteric idea eventually crept into Christian thought through early church fathers influenced by Platonism and Neoplatonism, and later through monastic traditions and Roman Catholic contemplative practices. Its emphasis on subjective feelings, private revelations, and experiential spirituality
departs from the clear, propositional, and didactic nature of biblical truth....)

This stuff has been spoken against for a very long time, and some people think that just get some type of feeling, some type of private revelation, some type of religious experience, depend on that, and bam that is the Holy Ghost, that is what I am talking about.

There is no private interpretation, now can the Holy Ghost speak directly to you and show you what a scripture means ? Of course, but it will align with what the word says, and can you have an experience with the Holy Ghost, sure, but it will always align with the word.

And the word of God says this:

Tit 1:9
(9) Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1Co 2:13
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Joh 6:63
(63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Read up on religious mysticism, and the doctrines of the past.
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

This is the problem with Christians today, they allow the devil to ruin everything and then they believe the lie that the devil gives them.

Mysticism, spirituality is not a negative thing it is something of the Lord. But because the devil has infiltrated the way people think and has put a negative spin on it it's automatically dark.

Look at the way everything is done on the internet. Anytime there's any bit of Truth on the internet it's spun out of control the devil has control of it and of course everybody believes whatever they read on the internet.

Nobody listens to the Holy Spirit but everyone listens to the internet.

Therefore when you do have someone that knows what they're talking about automatically, that person doesn't know anything. I couldn't care a bit that you don't believe me. The thing is that you don't listen to the Holy Spirit. You say that you're baptized in the spirit why don't you try listening to it for a change instead of listening to the internet and believing what the darkness tells you.
 
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

This is the problem with Christians today, they allow the devil to ruin everything and then they believe the lie that the devil gives them.

Mysticism, spirituality is not a negative thing it is something of the Lord. But because the devil has infiltrated the way people think and has put a negative spin on it it's automatically dark.

Look at the way everything is done on the internet. Anytime there's any bit of Truth on the internet it's spun out of control the devil has control of it and of course everybody believes whatever they read on the internet.

Nobody listens to the Holy Spirit but everyone listens to the internet.

Therefore when you do have someone that knows what they're talking about automatically, that person doesn't know anything. I couldn't care a bit that you don't believe me. The thing is that you don't listen to the Holy Spirit. You say that you're baptized in the spirit why don't you try listening to it for a change instead of listening to the internet and believing what the darkness tells you.
He created the internet to spread the word this is very simple, best blessings to your soul
 
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

This is the problem with Christians today, they allow the devil to ruin everything and then they believe the lie that the devil gives them.

Mysticism, spirituality is not a negative thing it is something of the Lord. But because the devil has infiltrated the way people think and has put a negative spin on it it's automatically dark.

Look at the way everything is done on the internet. Anytime there's any bit of Truth on the internet it's spun out of control the devil has control of it and of course everybody believes whatever they read on the internet.

Nobody listens to the Holy Spirit but everyone listens to the internet.

Therefore when you do have someone that knows what they're talking about automatically, that person doesn't know anything. I couldn't care a bit that you don't believe me. The thing is that you don't listen to the Holy Spirit. You say that you're baptized in the spirit why don't you try listening to it for a change instead of listening to the internet and believing what the darkness tells you.
Alot of accusations, but not alot of substance, or comparing scriptures with scriptures, or going according to sound doctrine.

Try to stick with the word and not emotions Bill, back what you say, concerning the zechariah scripture with other scripture, you obviously ignored the stuff on religious mysticism, which has been spoken against for a long time, and before the internet became popular, there are many old books written about it, the most important thing is to stand on the word.

There are false experiences and true godly experiences, so experiences cannot be the standard, the word has to be.

If your trust is in experiences, than you have your trust in the wrong place.
 
Here is a definition of mystic.

( dictionary.com)

( mystic

  1. involving or characterized by esoteric, otherworldly, or symbolic practices or content, as certain religious ceremonies and art; spiritually significant; ethereal.
  2. of the nature of or pertaining to mysteries known only to the initiated.

    mystic rites.
  3. of occult character, power, or significance.

    a mystic formula.
  4. of obscure or mysterious character or significance.
  5. of or relating to mystics or mysticism.)

Notice that one definition mentions the occult be careful what you are getting into.
 
Here is a definition of mystic.

( dictionary.com)

( mystic

  1. involving or characterized by esoteric, otherworldly, or symbolic practices or content, as certain religious ceremonies and art; spiritually significant; ethereal.
  2. of the nature of or pertaining to mysteries known only to the initiated.

  3. of occult character, power, or significance.

  4. of obscure or mysterious character or significance.
  5. of or relating to mystics or mysticism.)

Notice that one definition mentions the occult be careful what you are getting into.
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom.

You take that over the movement of the Holy Spirit.
 
Alot of accusations, but not alot of substance, or comparing scriptures with scriptures, or going according to sound doctrine.

Try to stick with the word and not emotions Bill, back what you say, concerning the zechariah scripture with other scripture, you obviously ignored the stuff on religious mysticism, which has been spoken against for a long time, and before the internet became popular, there are many old books written about it, the most important thing is to stand on the word.

There are false experiences and true godly experiences, so experiences cannot be the standard, the word has to be.

If your trust is in experiences, than you have your trust in the wrong place.
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

What is it to have faith? Is having faith only as far as making sure you have confirmations and scripture? Or is Faith stepping out and listening to what the Holy Spirit tells you?

Is there a substance in faith? When it comes to following the Holy Spirit?

What substance did Peter follow when he stepped off the boat to walk on the water, other than having his faith in Jesus.? What scripture did Peter turn to that told him it was okay to walk on the water, what scripture did Peter turn to that showed that walking on the water was okay and not of the devil?
 
You need faith in Jesus, but be careful, because you do need the word of God.

Rom 10:17
(17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And of course Jesus is the living word.

And yes God can speak to someone and tell them to go here or go there, he does give guidance, but also it is important that we seek his face to always make sure that we are walking rightly, and the word gives discernment on things and guidance on things, so be careful.

Be careful in your statements, we do need to hear from him, yes, and we do need his word, and in regards to our discussion on Zechariah and other scriptures, why would you not want to compare scriptures with scriptures like the word actually says to do, and that it must be according to sound doctrine.

Is there something preventing you from doing that ?

I know you are a Roman Catholic, and I believe I have read how you do not like the present pope, but regardless to that, do you believe in the pope office itself, and that a pope can potentially get revelations a part from the word, and that he does not need to compare to the word, in order for it to be biblical.

I personally do not believe in the popish office, but what is your thought ?

And can you answer my question of what kind of beast is the second beast of REVELATION CHAPTER 13 ?
 
Never ignore any part of his word, God moves in people's lives, but we do need the word.

If we put our faith in experience itself, than whatever experience happens than that must be of God, which is a very weak basis of discernment, because if you go that way, anything can be proclaimed biblical, so if that is your basis, you are in deep trouble with the Lord.
 
Never ignore any part of his word, God moves in people's lives, but we do need the word.

If we put our faith in experience itself, than whatever experience happens than that must be of God, which is a very weak basis of discernment, because if you go that way, anything can be proclaimed biblical, so if that is your basis, you are in deep trouble with the Lord.
May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I do understand, that's a scripture is very important but so too is doing what the Holy Spirit wants you to do. The Lord told me years ago that the most important thing I had to learn was recognizing his peace in my heart. And it's through his peace that I've learned discernment and many other things.

There are many times that I have to rely 100% on the Holy Spirit that's without the backup of the scripture other than putting your faith in God.

And this is true with other things too when you're reading the scripture when you see the multiple layers of the scripture laying out in front of you because the holy spirit is letting you know that this passage also is representing something of the future as well as the present.

When people do healings I try to explain that there's two types of healing that goes on, the first has to be the spiritual healing such as forgiveness of sins. And then the second is the physical healing. Jesus shows us this in one of the Miracles that takes place when they lower a man through the roof of the house. And Jesus says your sins are forgiven, that had to be taking place first before Jesus could do the other healing which is stand up and walk.

It's good that we go back and rely on the scripture for some things. But as Jesus stated, he was going to send the Holy Spirit to give us a complete understanding of everything without it we cannot be complete. The scripture is good to a certain point by itself because it is the word of Jesus and Jesus is God. But we must also have the fullness of the Holy Spirit within us to get the fullness of the scripture
 
Yes the Holy Spirit reveals the word, that is true, and what he reveals will be backed up through the word, I have had many moments to were I knew something was not of God, just through the quickening of the Spirit, but in saying that, there will always be hints in the word of God, that shows that that was the Holy Spirit, and of course you can know by what something produces.

And even in that, if of God, will match up the word.
 
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