The "Good Feeling Church"

[Mark of Faith]

I wondered where to put this post and have decided that in "Bible Study" is the most appropriate, even though I am not going to quote much from Scripture.

Firstly, a confession: I love to feel good. I love to feel happy, joyous, excited. But life is not always so obliging.

Many in Western churches also like good feelings. It is not wrong to enjoy elation. Indeed, a deep-seated joy is one of the fruit of the Spirit.

Yet, the "good feeling church" has grown disproportionately in both numbers and the "depth" of its "good feeling teaching".

Prosperity teaching and the insistence that God always wants to bless us according to the standards that the World teaches, are extremely dangerous.

There are thousands, if not millions, of our brothers and sisters alive today, for whom the words "give us this day our daily bread" is literally a profound plea for some food that day. Many others are imprisoned, tortured and raped because they refuse to renounce the Name of Christ.

Is this God being cruel? No, the blessing that these brothers and sisters enjoy is far deeper, far more real, than the surface clappies that seem to satisfy many Western believers. The "joy" is truly deep-seated, unable to be shaken when serious hardship and persecution come.

But what does it matter if we in the West have these attitudes?

The main, and greatest, danger is that when persecution does come, we will be ill-placed to handle it.

Throughout the world, persecution is increasing, both in scope and intensity, according to Open Doors UK.
In Europe and in America, the basic ethos of government has shifted away from Christian values to the promotion of human "rights". Europe is pushing ahead with a directive that threatens churches with legal action if they refuse to employ a hmosexual or a member of another faith to teach in their Sunday school.

Britain has already passed laws that effectively "gag" Christians from speaking out on their beliefs. The Gospel, at present, can still be freely preached. But a Christian couple were arrested for telling a Muslim man that Mohammed was a war-lord. A church was investigated by the police for handing out a leaflet that promoted Easter: it was a simple design, a daffodil with an invite to Easter services. A man had complained that this was harassment and shouldn't be distributed in an area with a large hmosexual population.

So, the countries that have traditionally been "havens" of Christian safety, are quickly moving into the place where persecution of Christians will take hold. We must learn that the blessings God gives us are far, far deeper and far more real, that the "pleasure-seeking", "ear-tickling", "wealth-gaining" teachings that have become so prevalent.

God bless,
Mark.

P.S. Forgive my mis-spelling of hmosexual. Apparently, a word that appears in the Bible is deemed inappropriate here!

 

[jiggyfly]

Throughout the world, persecution is increasing, both in scope and intensity, according to Open Doors UK.
In Europe and in America, the basic ethos of government has shifted away from Christian values to the promotion of human "rights". Europe is pushing ahead with a directive that threatens churches with legal action if they refuse to employ a hmosexual or a member of another faith to teach in their Sunday school.

Why should the church "employ" anyone? Here is a very easy solution to this dilemma, stop paying everyone a salary.

 

[Boanerges]

Some thoughts:
I love God's church.:shade:
I agree that there is nothing wrong with feeling good as His joy is my strength no matter the circumstance.
First only the born again folks are part of the church.
The "western church" is much maligned and yet it sends missionaries to every corner of the globe.
Many on fire for Christ and their lives show it, this will increase as persecution manifests.

Also there is nothing (in my view) wrong with paid staff who dedicate themselves to serving God and maturing His church. The Apostles certainly took offerings (for themselves and others) and most Pastors today work a full time job to support themselves. The exception to that would generally be larger congregations (local bodies of believers) where the need and ability to support are porportional to each other.

But anyway, those are just some of my views and I certainly respect the right of others to their views.
Many blessings in His Name,
your brother Larry.

 

[Diamondlight]

Practically, i'm not sure Jiggyfly's suggestion is workable. Possibly if churches became more local (like pubs in England) there would be less work for the 'employed' to do, especially if it was more evenly deligated throughout the body.

Possibly...

I do wonder if Churches are too culture-driven.

In my experience, some Christians choose to focus on the negative ie: "Your faith/belief is wrong because...", rather than the freedom (the same as any other faith in western societies) they still have to celebrating the good news of God and embracing those who would come (John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him") and leaving those who so obviously do not want, alone.

It is because of this negativity that i agree with Mark in that, if extreme persecution happens, they may not be best placed to face it.

 

[jiggyfly]

Well there is no evidence that the early church had anyone on salary, the apostles all had jobs/ careers outside of spreading the gospel.
Paul is a great example, he worked to support himself much of the time.

I think that those who are "career ministers" today are possibly living a compromise. Is it really serving God when you are getting paid to do it?

But then I see a huge difference between the ekklesia that Jesus is building and the christian religious institution, they simply aren't the same entity.

 

[Boanerges]

I think that those who are "career ministers" today are possibly living a compromise. Is it really serving God when you are getting paid to do it?

I understand that is how you feel so I believe for you it would be a wrong thing to do. Paul certainly did work (as most Pastors do) but also received support form the local churches he ministered to. In 1st Corinthians chapter 9 Paul declares that he deserves benefit from those he serves but refuses for their sake and not his own.
Paul plainly had his needs met by the church at Phillipi:
Php 4:14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.
Php 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
Php 4:16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
Php 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
Php 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

In 2 Corinthians 11:8 Paul announces that he has taken support of other churches to minister to them and compares it to robbery that others have paid their share.

I am of the opinion that one should not muzzle the ox that treads the corn and the laborer is worth his wage (1Ti 5:18 ).

But that is my view only. If I thought it wrong and sinned against my conscience it would be sin before God.

 

[jiggyfly]

I understand that is how you feel so I believe for you it would be a wrong thing to do. Paul certainly did work (as most Pastors do) but also received support form the local churches he ministered to. In 1st Corinthians chapter 9 Paul declares that he deserves benefit from those he serves but refuses for their sake and not his own.
Paul plainly had his needs met by the church at Phillipi:
Php 4:14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.
Php 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
Php 4:16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
Php 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
Php 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

In 2 Corinthians 11:8 Paul announces that he has taken support of other churches to minister to them and compares it to robbery that others have paid their share.

I am of the opinion that one should not muzzle the ox that treads the corn and the laborer is worth his wage (1Ti 5:18 ).

But that is my view only. If I thought it wrong and sinned against my conscience it would be sin before God.

Nothing wrong with paying them some money when they preach and supporting the traveling evangelist but I fail to see the connection between the common career pastor of today's church and the examples of those in the scriptures. Paul said if a man don't work then he shouldn't eat. And I still believe if your being paid for a service then it should not be considered any kind of a gift or sacrifice.

Personally I think it puts a damper on HolySpirit, the ministry gifts and spiritual giftings of others within the body when 1 or 2 do all the preaching and teaching.

 

[Cdnrider]

Great post!

Great post! This is something I've always wondered about and had many different answers about this subject from many people.
When I see and hear the tele-evangelists ask for money to support their ministries and their own private jets. When they take money from the poor and people who really need it, and use it for their own purposes. How much money is too much? Well, when it says money is the root of all kinds of evil, these people will have their just reward.
Jerry Lee-lewis said if you want to make a lot of money...become a pastor. I don't think that is very true in many cases. I've been in churches where the pastor has made more than almost all the other church members. I don't understand it, and likely never will.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Veracity]

Yet, the "good feeling church" has grown disproportionately in both numbers and the "depth" of its "good feeling teaching".

Prosperity teaching and the insistence that God always wants to bless us according to the standards that the World teaches, are extremely dangerous.

AMEN!!!

30 years ago, people hardly said amen out-loud at the end of a prayer, when more and more churches relaxed into open worship, it was great, but it has gone way past that now, to the point that it is like a weekly "nightclub" type event, with teens dancing as if they are in the spotlight. I have experienced a pretaping event of local church that is international where the first four rows are reserved for "professional" worshippers, (I don't think they are on a payroll though). To watch this made me so uneasy, as I could see these people "On Que" begin to shake and jump and wave their arms, and then just stop. If anyone has actually experienced a true touch from the Lord, it just does not happen this way.

Kind of like people who say they can speak in tongues at will, that only comes as the "spirit gives utterance".

The gospel of Christ is really not the focus anymore in these extreme "Feel Good" churches, it is more about "prosperity", if you are not blessed financially your not really connected to the Lord or if you are not "completely healed", then you have let Satan into your life or you have unrepentant sin, or you have no faith.

If this is not perilous as spoken of in 2 Timothy 3, I am afraid to think of how much worse it will get. These Preachers, Teachers and Pastors would never be able to make it through severe persecution for there faith in Christ, as they have made it all about money and numbers in the congregation. " Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days". James 5:2-3 The whole armor of God has been replaced with silk suits and white toed shoes so to speak.

I love to feel good when I worship the Lord also, but I want it to be in truth, not this pointless "God is our blessing vending machine", we don't deserve any blessing we get from the Lord!! He just so happens to be a loving merciful God who many today have mistaken kindness for weakness. If I am poor, thank you Jesus, if I have money thank you Jesus, if I am sick and in pain, thank you Jesus, If I go through trial and tribulations thank you Jesus, if people hate me, thank you Jesus. God is in control, not me by my "faith" in getting from God!!

You can't tell them though, they will kick you out of the church and call you a negative spirit.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Rant over. :wink:

 

[Diamondlight]

Well there is no evidence that the early church had anyone on salary, the apostles all had jobs/ careers outside of spreading the gospel.
Paul is a great example, he worked to support himself much of the time.

I think that those who are "career ministers" today are possibly living a compromise. Is it really serving God when you are getting paid to do it?

I agree, the early church possibly met a persons practical needs as they ministered.

Some would suggest that a salary is a practical need and also that it is serving God as Collosians 3:23 says "whatsoever ye do, work heartily, as unto the Lord, and not unto men"

I would prefer smaller, local bodies with much more delegated work as an alternative to mega-churches with "career ministers" leading them. I agree with Jiggyfly in that i don't think it's a good, healthy nor helpful model.

 

[Mark of Faith]

I'm really pleased this thread has developed into a good discussion. A number of points I do want to make comment on, but I'm going to leave it until, hopefully, later today so I can ponder on what has been said.

One point I do want to make now is this, (in response to Boanerges).
The Church, as being the saints, the elect, is not the same as the "visible church" of attenders. I am very sure that there are many who go to a building regularly who do not know Christ. We must pray for and minister to them, but not be surprised should they reject us, and eventually leave the building when the going gets tough.

The Church (the elect) will be loved and comforted by our Lord, whatever happens. "No-one can snatch them out of My hand," said Jesus.

God bless,
Mark.

 

[Boanerges]

Well, that is your personal preference and nothing wrong with that. I have seen several bodies of believers that are fairly large and are touching people all over the planet for Christ.
Do not get me wrong, there are certainly folks who are trying to milk the flock but that should never be compared to someone having their needs met will in full time service for Christ. Small (living) churches do rock with their warm atmopshere and large (living) churches rock in their ability to reach out globally and spread His Word. The fellowship I am attending now is large but still friendly and has planted over 20,000 churches in the last 6 years. Every offering but one per week goes directly into missions.
Another church (over 700,000 saved in the last 9 years) I attend (in my old home town) burns with Holy Ghost fire and I have seen Pastors from literally every corner of the globe come there and declare that this place is where revival started in our church. They came and got touched by God and brought that revival home.
Needless to say neither of these is very popular with the dead dry churches in their respective areas.:shock::shade:
So I said all that to say this; regardless of your preference or prejudice towards another type of body of believers if God is using it and moving we should lift that work up.
Just like larger churches I have been in some really dead dry "home churches and some really on fire ones as well.
Do not limit God.

 

[Mark of Faith]

Well, that is your personal preference and nothing wrong with that. I have seen several bodies of believers that are fairly large and are touching people all over the planet for Christ.
Do not get me wrong, there are certainly folks who are trying to milk the flock but that should never be compared to someone having their needs met will in full time service for Christ. Small (living) churches do rock with their warm atmopshere and large (living) churches rock in their ability to reach out globally and spread His Word. The fellowship I am attending now is large but still friendly and has planted over 20,000 churches in the last 6 years. Every offering but one per week goes directly into missions.
Another church (over 700,000 saved in the last 9 years) I attend (in my old home town) burns with Holy Ghost fire and I have seen Pastors from literally every corner of the globe come there and declare that this place is where revival started in our church. They came and got touched by God and brought that revival home.
Needless to say neither of these is very popular with the dead dry churches in their respective areas.:shock::shade:
So I said all that to say this; regardless of your preference or prejudice towards another type of body of believers if God is using it and moving we should lift that work up.
Just like larger churches I have been in some really dead dry "home churches and some really on fire ones as well.
Do not limit God.

(Note to what follows: I initially thought your response was to my last post. Maybe it was, but after reading previous posts I'm not sure. But what I say does apply.) :

Do not misunderstand me brother, I certainly am not saying that every big church is dry, nor every small church on fire. What I said was very much in agreement with you that there are many in "churches" that are not born-again. Some are true seekers, others will leave after a time.

God can certainly use large groups of believers. God can certainly use small groups of believers.

I would also like to step into the "employed" ministers discussion. I do believe there is room for non-paid service. In fact, every member of the Body has some work to do, whether paid or unpaid, acknowledged or unacknowledged.
Yet I also believe that the Church should give to those who have committed themselves to full-time service.
The initial question about getting around employment laws by having volunteers wouldn't work in the UK, as discrimination laws also apply to voluntary positions.
So, the question remains for the Church: do we break the law? Or do we allow youth pastors that teach and practice contrary to God's word? It is fast getting to that position.

 

[Diamondlight]

One point I do want to make now is this, (in response to Boanerges).
The Church, as being the saints, the elect, is not the same as the "visible church" of attenders. I am very sure that there are many who go to a building regularly who do not know Christ. We must pray for and minister to them, but not be surprised should they reject us, and eventually leave the building when the going gets tough.

While i value the distinction you've highlighted i would like to suggest that the 'elect' might be the ones leaving the building unable to digest the 'other (good feeling) gospel' that is preached.

 

[Mark of Faith]

While i value the distinction you've highlighted i would like to suggest that the 'elect' might be the ones leaving the building unable to digest the 'other (good feeling) gospel' that is preached.

I think there may be something in that. Some churches do seem to be soaked in false teaching, which the true born-again believers may choose to separate themselves from.
Yet I do believe that a large proportion of believers are just that...believers. And, that many in the "institution" are not true believers.
On an individual and personal level I try hard not to judge. God knows those that are His. When falsehood is promoted, it is the falsehood that should be challenged whilst still loving the one who says it. But even here we must be careful, as something we may think is true...it may be us that have got it wrong....it is time to do as the Bereans did in Acts and search the Scriptures.
I maintain my OP comments that if all one is after is a weekly "high" from church attendance, something is wrong.

God bless,
Mark.

 

[Boanerges]

While i value the distinction you've highlighted i would like to suggest that the 'elect' might be the ones leaving the building unable to digest the 'other (good feeling) gospel' that is preached.

Painting millions of folks with such a broad brush stroke brings no glory to God.
I would like to suggest that those who are sure they are elect and others are not are often (but not always) in the grips of religious pride.
Perhaps you can post some of that "feel bad gospel" you seem to favor? LOL.:shade:
Let the joy of the Lord eb your strength and let the world know we are Christians by our love for one another.

 

[Cdnrider]

AMEN!!!

30 years ago, people hardly said amen out-loud at the end of a prayer, when more and more churches relaxed into open worship, it was great, but it has gone way past that now, to the point that it is like a weekly "nightclub" type event, with teens dancing as if they are in the spotlight. I have experienced a pretaping event of local church that is international where the first four rows are reserved for "professional" worshippers, (I don't think they are on a payroll though). To watch this made me so uneasy, as I could see these people "On Que" begin to shake and jump and wave their arms, and then just stop. If anyone has actually experienced a true touch from the Lord, it just does not happen this way.

Kind of like people who say they can speak in tongues at will, that only comes as the "spirit gives utterance".

The gospel of Christ is really not the focus anymore in these extreme "Feel Good" churches, it is more about "prosperity", if you are not blessed financially your not really connected to the Lord or if you are not "completely healed", then you have let Satan into your life or you have unrepentant sin, or you have no faith.

If this is not perilous as spoken of in 2 Timothy 3, I am afraid to think of how much worse it will get. These Preachers, Teachers and Pastors would never be able to make it through severe persecution for there faith in Christ, as they have made it all about money and numbers in the congregation. " Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days". James 5:2-3 The whole armor of God has been replaced with silk suits and white toed shoes so to speak.

I love to feel good when I worship the Lord also, but I want it to be in truth, not this pointless "God is our blessing vending machine", we don't deserve any blessing we get from the Lord!! He just so happens to be a loving merciful God who many today have mistaken kindness for weakness. If I am poor, thank you Jesus, if I have money thank you Jesus, if I am sick and in pain, thank you Jesus, If I go through trial and tribulations thank you Jesus, if people hate me, thank you Jesus. God is in control, not me by my "faith" in getting from God!!

You can't tell them though, they will kick you out of the church and call you a negative spirit.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Rant over. :wink:

I can't agree more with all you've said. I have been in churches where the church kill their wounded. The church doesn't have to worry about outside sources destroying it, it can do it by itself internally.
Rather than the pastor, deacons and elders being the example of servants...it is only the congregation (flock) that is expected to be the ultimate servant? Completely backwards?
I think if the church kicks me out for being honest, following what He says in obedience to His Word, it is all good...Jesus has something far better, for me.

 

[Boanerges]

I know I am usually "the odd man out" when defending the church and I am okay with that. I am not blind to her problems but try to see with spirit eyes what the Lord sees in His bride. Below is something I believe He put on my heart a while back. I hope you read it prayerfully and have a blessed day:

A church (local body of believers) is a hospital for souls

Don't expect to go and not find anyone without at least as many problems as you have yourself.

If someone is hypocritical then church is the perfect place to get set free

Love more, look for faults less

If you want to be touched by God reach out and touch someone with His love

Love the unlovely

Be an encourager peolpe don't need to be told what their problems are but instead they are looking for answers so point them to Jesus for He is their answer

Support your church, it takes a lot of finances to pay utilities, salaries, supplies etc., etc.

Be quick to forgive, give as much mercy as you yourself need (it's usually more than we think)

Don't take offense, see the people who hurt you thru Jesus eyes and your heart will quickly change

Or as the Lord put it so very well- Love ye one another even as I have loved you- selah.

 

[Mark of Faith]

I know I am usually "the odd man out" when defending the church and I am okay with that. I am not blind to her problems but try to see with spirit eyes what the Lord sees in His bride. Below is something I believe He put on my heart a while back. I hope you read it prayerfully and have a blessed day:

A church (local body of believers) is a hospital for souls

Don't expect to go and not find anyone without at least as many problems as you have yourself.

If someone is hypocritical then church is the perfect place to get set free

Love more, look for faults less

If you want to be touched by God reach out and touch someone with His love

Love the unlovely

Be an encourager peolpe don't need to be told what their problems are but instead they are looking for answers so point them to Jesus for He is their answer

Support your church, it takes a lot of finances to pay utilities, salaries, supplies etc., etc.

Be quick to forgive, give as much mercy as you yourself need (it's usually more than we think)

Don't take offense, see the people who hurt you thru Jesus eyes and your heart will quickly change

Or as the Lord put it so very well- Love ye one another even as I have loved you- selah.

I remember you posting that a while back brother! Yes, we must be merciful and gracious. It takes a good amount of maturity to see the "jewel" that is sometimes hidden in the "stone", but I am so grateful that others have shown me grace, and as i have "freely received so freely give".

That is not to say that a certain amount of exhortation isn't needed when there are bits wrong.

I think a summary would be beneficial:

* It is good to have good feelings, such as joy and peace, yet these must be based on a real relationship with Jesus. In fact, only a relationship with Jesus will bring about these truly.
* Big congregation/small congregation...both have roles to play.
* Good feelings on their own, or based upon circumstance or "working oneself up into a frenzy" are not what God desires of us.
* Getting the seats filled isn't necessarily the mark of a living vibrant church. But then, neither is getting them emptied!

The Church is good, it is our Lord's institution, it is His Body. But yes, there are a few places where the Bride still needs to "get herself ready".

God bless,
Mark.

 

[Boanerges]

* It is good to have good feelings, such as joy and peace, yet these must be based on a real relationship with Jesus. In fact, only a relationship with Jesus will bring about these truly. * Big congregation/small congregation...both have roles to play. * Good feelings on their own, or based upon circumstance or "working oneself up into a frenzy" are not what God desires of us. * Getting the seats filled isn't necessarily the mark of a living vibrant church. But then, neither is getting them emptied! The Church is good, it is our Lord's institution, it is His Body. But yes, there are a few places where the Bride still needs to "get herself ready". God bless, Mark.

I could not agree with you more my friend.