The god of free will

[Sargento]

AURAFAIRY...

I was thinking about making a topic like this after reading a recent topic titled 'How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?'

I strongly disagree with the writing there but I didn't feel right about posting this there. If you are on the wrong side or a Christian who is very prone to struggling with 'assurance'(been there x.x, this is how faith grows in my experience/opinion. I thank God for being a merciful, great and lovingkind help. He is compassionate. Continue always with Him and you will see it too.) you may take this negatively.

I hate when people make God weak and/or lie about him.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 (really this whole chapter is good and Iove God all the more for it.)

The LORD has made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4

All of God's word is truth. God is love. He Himself paid for salvation. Believe on Him and you will be saved. John 3:16-18

Hi, I'm glad you don't pretend no to see this...
... and about this topic? What do you understand about free-will?


DHC...

My friend, you cannot take one verse and pretend that others do not exist!! Doesn't Bible also talks about predestination? And election? So is this one against those??

He want's ALL men to be saved... but only all that BELIEVE.... that said, the distinction is made.
Couldn't HE save without demanding faith? Yet HE does demands it ... And ins't faith a gift?

If GOD wan't to save every people why doesn't HE? Why is it a small door?
Why does HE demands faith?

Couldn't HE just saves and that's it?
If you love a son of yours (which has a deceased that causes him not to judge things right) won't you save him EVEN if it was against his will?
And how much greater is the love of GOD?... this means however that HE does not love all, but that's another topic maybe.

In the last day when every eye will see HIM and all will cry of regret and recognize his sins why does HE say to them those stone cold words "I never knew you" if HE really want to save them all??
Wouldn't that be an excellent opportunity to save them all?
Or will they all go to Hell because they want?

Think about it...

JAMES...

If we cannot choose to be saved, why did the apostle Peter in Acts 2:40 say we can save ourselves?: "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (KJV)

Because that makes the elect react...

Why did GOD told Israel to fulfill the law if HE knew no man could?

But if you can save yourself then go ahead... I won't stop you.

"And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon [them] said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Mat 19:25-26​

And just in this passage I refute both your claims ... that man can save him self (like when Jesus told the rich what to do), and that GOD is limited.

Yes God is limited.

Why would God ask us to pray for his will to be done on Earth, if His will is always done? Please answer this if you can.

Our praying is for OUR learning... NOT to GIVE HIM POWER.
Everything we do is for our learning, our growth until we reach the maturity of Jesus... we do not pray for HIM, we prey for us.
We preach the gospel to the elect so we all understand good and evil, not that GOD couldn't save all the elect without us...
Jesus came to earth so HE could also like us be perfected by weakness and then guide us knowing what is to be in this condition, not that HE had to die to save us... or you think GOD had to kill the one living son to save the others from death? Do you think HE owes to anyone?... well, you say HE's limited, maybe you do thinks HE owes to someone.
But GOD, being perfect, and in his multiform wisdom, and loving his sons with eternal and unconditional love wanted to do things this way because it pleases HIM... which you do not seem to approve.

What a disappointment James...
...you limit GOD to men, amazing... with a sentence like this ("Yes God is limited") I think I have nothing else to discuss with you ... no good can come from it because you already shown where your heart is, and it's not in GOD... may GOD be mercy on you, 'cause if HE does not you won't be in the right side at the judgement day.

 

[B-A-C]

you limit GOD to men

Which God is more pwerful and limitless?
A God that has to control us to do his will...
Or a God that is still in control and still God even when we don't do his will?

A military dictator can force people to do his will, for a little while.
But his power depends on people doing his will. In fact his "people" will never love him, because he forces them.

A true God doesn't need us for anything.
He may want us to do certain things, He may even help us to do certain things.
But His power doesn't depend on people doing His will.
He wants us to do things for Him, not because He forces us (yes He could if he wanted to), but because we love Him.

 

[Sargento]

The God by whom all things exists and subsists...

Control us? He keeps us and what we are existing... or do you think that you exist by your self and HIS touch is "interference"?

Your problem is to think that you or anything exists out of HIM... even you nature and thoughts and will are sustained by him.

 

[Aurafairy]

Hi @Sargento, I'm glad you replied to me. I don't have an understanding of free will. I was under the impression that God is responsible for everything but I think there are verses that point to a certain separation (1 John 1:5, 1 Corinthians 14:33, James 1:13, 2 Peter 3:9 ) and I'm not sure how to fit them together. I thank God that my faith rests in the power of God and not the wisdom of men.

There is something in this thread that I never considered before, someone said God is limited by man's decision. It upset me(maybe pride?) because instead of God choosing me and creating me because He wanted to it makes it seem more like I was left to a series of events from free will choices of humans, including myself and God chose me because of them. I don't think I prefer that idea but as far as I know I can't disprove that with scripture.

 

[DHC]

DHC...

My friend, you cannot take one verse and pretend that others do not exist!! Doesn't Bible also talks about predestination? And election? So is this one against those??

He want's ALL men to be saved... but only all that BELIEVE.... that said, the distinction is made.
Couldn't HE save without demanding faith? Yet HE does demands it ... And ins't faith a gift?

If GOD wan't to save every people why doesn't HE? Why is it a small door?
Why does HE demands faith?

Couldn't HE just saves and that's it?
If you love a son of yours (which has a deceased that causes him not to judge things right) won't you save him EVEN if it was against his will?
And how much greater is the love of GOD?... this means however that HE does not love all, but that's another topic maybe.

In the last day when every eye will see HIM and all will cry of regret and recognize his sins why does HE say to them those stone cold words "I never knew you" if HE really want to save them all??
Wouldn't that be an excellent opportunity to save them all?
Or will they all go to Hell because they want?

Think about it...

Hello Sargento.


You asked the following question.


My friend, you cannot take one verse and pretend that others do not exist!! Doesn't Bible also talks about predestination? And election? So is this one against those??


I am not ignoring any other verses Sargento, the verses I quoted are simple verses.


1 Timothy 2
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,


Jesus died for all men Sargento the scripture is very clear on this point. There should be no debate
with those two verses. Is there any conflict with verses that speak of election or predestination?

Now does the Bible talk about predestination? Yes Sargento, the Bible certainly does talk about predestination.
Perhaps not the brand of predestination that you may have been taught.


Any theology offered must address and explain all the scripture Sargento. There cannot
exist any conflict within the scriptures regarding any tenet. I will provide a verse that
speaks of predestination and explain what the verse is saying. To assertain whether there
is in fact any conflict.


Romans 8:29
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed...


There are two different ways to understand this verse Sargento. The interpretation reduces
to the simple understanding of the key word "those". For example, the way you have been taught
to read the verse is as follows.


29 For (the elect) whom He foreknew...


Which I dare say is incorrect, in context Paul is discussing the Israelites and their election
in Christ. Please read Romans 9,10 and 11.


29 For (the Israelites) whom He foreknew...


Is a better reading as Romans 11:2, supports this renedering Sargento.


Which group is Paul referring to in this verse Sargento. If you say 'those' are the elect then Christ did not die for all and a direct conflict occurs.
If you interpret 'those' as the Israelites then no conflict takes place. Which way do you read Romans 8:29 Sargento?


Further, faith is a gift but belief is not. The Gospel requires the belief itself first in Jesus Christ. Only through the process of the belief
of any person does the realization of the promises of God prevail, i.e., faith.


You asked another question Sargento which I found troubling.


If GOD wan't to save every people why doesn't HE? Why is it a small door?


God has allowed room for the freedom of choice, God is not a dictator Sargento.
Surely you have noticed the continual tension of choice that we are involved in every day.
Our cognitive thought patterns are in fact layers of choices, decisions based on our
understanding. Will I read the Bible, will I pray, will I fast today, will I forgive and forget?
No one walks the path of life without making abundant choices every day.

 

[Sargento]

AURAFAIRY...

Hi @Sargento, I'm glad you replied to me. I don't have an understanding of free will. I was under the impression that God is responsible for everything but I think there are verses that point to a certain separation (1 John 1:5, 1 Corinthians 14:33, James 1:13, 2 Peter 3:9 ) and I'm not sure how to fit them together. I thank God that my faith rests in the power of God and not the wisdom of men.

There is something in this thread that I never considered before, someone said God is limited by man's decision. It upset me(maybe pride?) because instead of God choosing me and creating me because He wanted to it makes it seem more like I was left to a series of events from free will choices of humans, including myself and God chose me because of them. I don't think I prefer that idea but as far as I know I can't disprove that with scripture.

And I'm glad also you understand this... for there to be free-will even the conversion of our neighbor would depend on the free-will of someone to preach him, and if that someone just do not feel like preaching the neighbor would never even get a chance of rejection or acceptance. ... one man's free-will will always be another's prison.
In order to man have free-will all of GOD's plans and the salvation of everyone would be on the line ... and many could perish by not getting to know the gospel just because someone on it's free-will wouldn't preach it...

It would be chaos, not a plan of a loving FATHER... because every event would depend on another event, and since man would have free-will the conclusion it would be that we were abandon do ourselves.
The end of free-will is to remove GOD from the "equation"... all becomes up to man.

But the illusion of free-will lives on man because he sees two paths... why do you think the serpent toke man to the tree of knowledge so it could see good and evil?

My friend... I will try to explain it as good has I can because if you love and care about the truth you want it to be clear, right? The truth it's not just a doctrine or a history, it is the reality in which we are included.
All sons of GOD want's to separate black from white, the others fight this in order to maintain grey so they don't get unapproved by the truth.

All the Bible shows us NO free-will since Genesis to Revelation, and nowhere you see free-will...

Free-will is what it says... a will that is free with no limits, no defined form.

See the animals and nature... they have a will indeed, but is it free?
Can a lion decide to like vegetables? Or a cow decide to like meat? Remember that were talking about WILL, not actions (yet).
Can an animal change is nature (which drives his will)?

The same is with man and it's nature...

Just like you can't change the nature of you flesh (dna) much less can you do it to your spirit to became a NEW CREATURE.

The Bible says about the natural man:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:14​

So unless you are FIRST reborn you CANNOT accept the gospel because it seems foolishness to every natural man...
First you reborn (become new wineskin), then you're ready to accept the wine (Spirit)... this in fact happens all at the same time, but we can separated like this to explain.

Now, after reborn you become a son of GOD, with the nature like GOD.... that's why is written in the following 2 verses:

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged by no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.​

1co 2:15​

What Paul is talking here is a TRANSFORMATION OF THE BEING. Before you were natural, and them became spiritual... before you couldn't accept GOD, nut then you desire HIM with all your heart... and all off this was HIS work.
Regeneration by it self is a violation of your first will which was enslaved to sin, and afterward became enslaved to Jesus because you now are molded to his mind... never you our.
The first man is "formatted" according to sin and all it's pleasure is in sin (again, not talking about actions but in heart), the second man is "formatted" after Christ and all is heart is enslaved to GOD.
So, the first man cannot become the second (nor he can desire it), and the second cannot become the first (nor can he desire it)... remember what Jesus said about the good tree and the bad one, each one can only deliver it's own fruit; the good tree CANNOT deliver a bad fruit and the bad one CANNOT deliver a good fruit.
In death we BELONG to death, in light we belong to Jesus, never of our own... first given to the Devil, then bought by Jesus.... however always under GOD's plan and it's love.

This are just 3 verses... but I can show the same all over the Bible... give me one that shows free-will!!


Now tell me Aurafairy, is your will free? Can you control it or is it your will that controls you?
Do like what you choose, or do you choose what you like? What comes first? What you choose or what you like?
Can you CONTROL your will or does your will control's you?

Think about the person you most love in the world... do you love him/her because you choose? Or does that love constrains you?

Now think about someone you can't stand... did you choose that either? Did you choose to fill that or does that felling appears without your permission?

Can you control what you love or what you hate, or is it them that guides you decisions?

And about regret? That moment when you realized you hurted someone you loved... that regret was a choice or something that CAME OVER YOU?

My friend, having free will would be to be able to choose what to feel, what to love, and what to hate, because accepting the gospel or not happens in the heart not in you hands... so, all free will in accepting or not Jesus (or anything else) is pure illusion that lifts up man lowers down GOD to the point of HE becoming dependent on us and our decisions... "HE want's to saves us, but HE can't because we don't let HIM"!
Free will is one of the most diabolic doctrines... however, so natural, innocent and sweet to the flesh.

Aurafairy, think about it and present your questions... I know there's allot in the Bible that appears free-will... ASK.

 

[Sargento]

DHC...

I asked you other questions too and showed you more things... but you do not have to answer them now... hope you think about them though.

Ok... since you do not exclude verses from your "all" I'll give then one passage only for you to show me how you include it ... explain to me how do you make it fit in what you said about the "all".... after this I'll give another and so on (I have the hole Bible)...

"For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"
and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message —which is also what they were destined for.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."​

1Peter 2:6-9​

This passage makes a separation... one kind of people that do not believe because they were destined not to believe, and another kind of people that are choosen people, royal priesthood, holy nation and GOD's special possession.

 

[Joanne]

Good points....

 

[Fenn]

AURAFAIRY...



And I'm glad also you understand this... for there to be free-will even the conversion of our neighbor would depend on the free-will of someone to preach him, and if that someone just do not feel like preaching the neighbor would never even get a chance of rejection or acceptance. ... one man's free-will will always be another's prison.
In order to man have free-will all of GOD's plans and the salvation of everyone would be on the line ... and many could perish by not getting to know the gospel just because someone on it's free-will wouldn't preach it...

It would be chaos, not a plan of a loving FATHER... because every event would depend on another event, and since man would have free-will the conclusion it would be that we were abandon do ourselves.
The end of free-will is to remove GOD from the "equation"... all becomes up to man.

Sargento, I disagree with this view on free will. You seem to think that if there is free will that we can only learn of God through others. The Bible tells differently.

Romans 1

King James Version (KJV)


19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Definition of MANIFEST

1
: readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight

2
: easily understood or recognized by the mind : obvious

But the illusion of free-will lives on man because he sees two paths... why do you think the serpent toke man to the tree of knowledge so it could see good and evil?

My friend... I will try to explain it as good has I can because if you love and care about the truth you want it to be clear, right? The truth it's not just a doctrine or a history, it is the reality in which we are included.
All sons of GOD want's to separate black from white, the others fight this in order to maintain grey so they don't get unapproved by the truth.

All the Bible shows us NO free-will since Genesis to Revelation, and nowhere you see free-will...

Free-will is what it says... a will that is free with no limits, no defined form.

See the animals and nature... they have a will indeed, but is it free?
Can a lion decide to like vegetables? Or a cow decide to like meat? Remember that were talking about WILL, not actions (yet).
Can an animal change is nature (which drives his will)?

The same is with man and it's nature...

Just like you can't change the nature of you flesh (dna) much less can you do it to your spirit to became a NEW CREATURE.

You seem to think that human nature is unchangeable. We are not animals and should not be thought of in the same way. Can a person decide to become a vegetarian? Or strictly eat meat and bread? Yes. Can a child taste coffee and dislike it, but slowly get used to it and then desire it? Yes. But that is an example from the world. We need something from the Bible to decide.
Romans 1

King James Version (KJV)



26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.



Again with Romans we see that God has left us to decide our actions, even unto changing our own nature. He does not like it, nor condone it, but He allows us the choice. I don't want to go into great detail on this as I feel it is something that is obvious in text. Also, my words are nothing compared to God's.

 

[Aurafairy]

@Fenn I appreciate your reply. Please allow me to clear up a few things to you and others reading so that they do not get the wrong impression of Sargento because of me.

"Sargento, I disagree with this view on free will. You seem to think that if there is free will that we can only learn of God through others. The Bible tells differently."

In what you are replying to, he(Sargento) is commenting on what I said previously when I was discussing someone else's opinion in this thread which was extreme free will to the effect of God not intervening unless we(humans) pray for His will to be done on earth.

 

[james1523]

Our praying is for OUR learning... NOT to GIVE HIM POWER.
Everything we do is for our learning, our growth until we reach the maturity of Jesus... we do not pray for HIM, we prey for us.
We preach the gospel to the elect so we all understand good and evil, not that GOD couldn't save all the elect without us...
Jesus came to earth so HE could also like us be perfected by weakness and then guide us knowing what is to be in this condition, not that HE had to die to save us... or you think GOD had to kill the one living son to save the others from death? Do you think HE owes to anyone?... well, you say HE's limited, maybe you do thinks HE owes to someone.
But GOD, being perfect, and in his multiform wisdom, and loving his sons with eternal and unconditional love wanted to do things this way because it pleases HIM... which you do not seem to approve.

What a disappointment James...
...you limit GOD to men, amazing... with a sentence like this ("Yes God is limited") I think I have nothing else to discuss with you ... no good can come from it because you already shown where your heart is, and it's not in GOD... may GOD be mercy on you, 'cause if HE does not you won't be in the right side at the judgement day.

You must not believe in Jesus Christ then, that He is the Son of God, or God in the flesh. God in the flesh implies God being limited by man. God chose to dwell in human flesh. Because of this God Himself became limited.

We preach the gospel to the elect so we all understand good and evil, not that GOD couldn't save all the elect without us...

God could save the elect without us, but the fact is He has not, does not and will not. Therefore He has chosen to limit Himself by choosing to work in, through and by Earthen vessels. If you cannot see this you fail to see the most basic fact about the Christian life and God's purpose - God dwelling in man.

The Gospel which is God's will, itself is limited by men, if there are no preachers:
Rom 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Your definition of prayer as being for learning is strange. The dictionary definition of prayer is "To call on (a higher power) for assistance, support, or inspiration:".
If prayer is for your self-learning, then why do we pray TO God, and not merely pray to OURSELVES? Do you pray to yourself Sargento? If prayer is for your learning and not to invoke God, then it would not matter to whom you pray to , right? I think you have confused prayer with the Bible. The Bible is for our learning, prayer is to invoke God.

Now there is one thing you have not and probably cannot answer - if God's will is always done on Earth why did Jesus ask us to pray for it to be done, and why did Jesus himself pray for it to be done ? Please tell us, according to your definition of prayer, what exactly the disciples, us, or Jesus would have learnt by praying in such a general way?

 

[DHC]

DHC...

I asked you other questions too and showed you more things... but you do not have to answer them now... hope you think about them though.

Ok... since you do not exclude verses from your "all" I'll give then one passage only for you to show me how you include it ... explain to me how do you make it fit in what you said about the "all".... after this I'll give another and so on (I have the hole Bible)...

"For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"
and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message —which is also what they were destined for.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."​

1Peter 2:6-9​

This passage makes a separation... one kind of people that do not believe because they were destined not to believe, and another kind of people that are choosen people, royal priesthood, holy nation and GOD's special possession.

Hello Sargento.

Thanks for the reply, you selected an excellent passage from Peter's first letter.

There are in fact two ways to read this passage which is to be expected.

Your theology implies that the 'predestined' means that the choice has already been made.
God has elected from all eternity, God has predestined each individual choice!

A second way to read the verses is a much more simple approach. Here I will reprint
your quote which saves you back tracking.

"They stumble because they disobey the message —which is also what they were destined for."

You may wish to read an earlier line in the preceding chapter of Peter's letter.

1 Peter 1
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.

Since we are aware of the Old Testament prophecies regarding the messiah.
And reading the line above, it is very clear that Christ was predestined. In this you
have my full agreement, I find no contrary scripture indicating otherwise. Therefore
it is beyond dispute that Christ was predestined from eternity!

To infer that an individuals choice is woven into this predestination is problematic.
That a person's decision for Christ has also been predestined would be alien to the passage itself.
This amounts to an unwarranted amplification of the verses. We have to read the lines very carefully.

A person fails because they disobey the message, this is what Peter states.
Peter does not say "they fail because they were predestined to fail".
They disobey, they choose not to obey the message. They do not fail because God made them fail Sargento.
God has allowed a pass or fail on the primary vote for Christ. A decision made for or against Christ is the
predestined process itself. All people will be given this choice and will receive the consequence of the choice.

"They stumble because they disobey the message —which is also what they were destined for."

You may wish to offer another verse as the one from 1Peter. Does not establish
a personal predestined election by God at all. Stumbling is from disobedience, God
causes no one to stumble.

 

[Sargento]

Fenn...

You seem to think that if there is free will that we can only learn of God through others. The Bible tells differently.

Romans 1

King James Version (KJV)


19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Definition of MANIFEST

1
: readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight

2
: easily understood or recognized by the mind : obvious

Of course the Bible tells different my friend, the Bible is not talking about free-will.

Yes, the wicked has no excuse... if he is able to believe he as all conditions to it, that is IF he has free-will which he claims ... that's why HE he is fair even though HE did not have to do it because all and everyone is HIS.

You seem to think that human nature is unchangeable. We are not animals and should not be thought of in the same way. Can a person decide to become a vegetarian? Or strictly eat meat and bread? Yes. Can a child taste coffee and dislike it, but slowly get used to it and then desire it? Yes. But that is an example from the world. We need something from the Bible to decide.
Romans 1

King James Version (KJV)



26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.



Again with Romans we see that God has left us to decide our actions, even unto changing our own nature. He does not like it, nor condone it, but He allows us the choice. I don't want to go into great detail on this as I feel it is something that is obvious in text. Also, my words are nothing compared to God's.

Human nature IS UNCHANGEABLE... at least by it's own will (only GOD can - regeneration)... a will cannot go against it self... it can hate it self, but even that came from that same nature... no one can deliver a fruit from another tree but himself.

Humans ARE like animals... all those examples are IN the human nature.... humans can do and "learn" within their nature, not out of it... just like a lion's hunter nature can be "contained" by be wise tamer, but he will allways be a lion with the hunting instinct GOD gave him.

Romans 1 says they changed their nature? Or was it GOD? Are you telling me that men attraction towards women or women towards men are an option???? Think better Feen...
...ask someone gay to decide not to be gay and he will laugh in your face (I'm talking about this "gay" example because is the one in this passage you used has an argument)...

I'll give you a challenge then so you can prove or argument here...
For one day, just for one day became gay... and I don't mean ACT like it, I mean BE it and FELL attraction to your own sex... don't worry, you'll be safe, it's just for one day than you can decide to be attracted to the opposite sex again. CAN YOU?

But if you really want to decide by the Bible you have where to look:

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? {then} may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. {accustomed: Heb. taught}
Jer 13:23​

If you can't change your flesh's nature (dna) how do you want to be able to change your spirit nature???
...or another example witch also talks about the "manifestation" GOD gives man you quoted in Rm1 ...

I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for {there is} a time there for every purpose and for every work.
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. {that God...: or, that they might clear God, and see, etc}
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all {is} vanity.
Ec 3:17-19​

The manifestation HE gives man is the man is like an animal with no free-will and HE is the author of all, and that's why everyone who defends free-will has no excuse because man should already have understood that HE is their MASTER ...
... and like these verses many more exist about the same.

No may friend, the illusion of free-will is PURE VANITY. This was the present devil gave man in Eden, the knowledge of good and evil so that man thinks his free to choose .... that's why animals don't have it (the ilusion) and only man does:

The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: {but} Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
Isaiah 1:3
​

The difference of man and an animal (in this matter) is that the animal does not have this illusion.

 

[Sargento]

James...

You must not believe in Jesus Christ then, that He is the Son of God, or God in the flesh. God in the flesh implies God being limited by man. God chose to dwell in human flesh. Because of this God Himself became limited.



God could save the elect without us, but the fact is He has not, does not and will not. Therefore He has chosen to limit Himself by choosing to work in, through and by Earthen vessels. If you cannot see this you fail to see the most basic fact about the Christian life and God's purpose - God dwelling in man.

The Gospel which is God's will, itself is limited by men, if there are no preachers:
Rom 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Your definition of prayer as being for learning is strange. The dictionary definition of prayer is "To call on (a higher power) for assistance, support, or inspiration:".
If prayer is for your self-learning, then why do we pray TO God, and not merely pray to OURSELVES? Do you pray to yourself Sargento? If prayer is for your learning and not to invoke God, then it would not matter to whom you pray to , right? I think you have confused prayer with the Bible. The Bible is for our learning, prayer is to invoke God.

Now there is one thing you have not and probably cannot answer - if God's will is always done on Earth why did Jesus ask us to pray for it to be done, and why did Jesus himself pray for it to be done ? Please tell us, according to your definition of prayer, what exactly the disciples, us, or Jesus would have learnt by praying in such a general way?

I will answer your question (not because of you though) so this might not be an obstacle to anyone.

GOD's will is always done on earth... but one thing is what HE wants to happen (HIS plan in which you do not believe) or another thing his what HE order us to do which is another will.

If I have a stubborn child that believes that he can touch fire with his hands, the best way to teach him his wrong his to tell him to grab something very hot so he can fell the pain and learn from it... so, my order (will) to him is "touch fire", but what I want is that he learn that he can't play with it.

GOD order us to have a good conduct and always act right, that's is the his will for our conduct... but for it to happens it depends on the strength HE gives us, so his will is always done which is TO TEACH US.

Why did HE gave Israel the law? What was HIS will??? That they obey it or that the didn't obey it? What was the purpose of the law???
The Will HE revealed them was "do it", but this was ordered with the purpouse (his real will) of showing that they couldn't obey it.
The same rule applies here in your "riddle".

It's sad that you don't understand this and you find it a riddle... Isaiah said about the eternal plan of GOD:

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times {the things} that are not {yet} done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isaiah 46:10​

...And Jesus...

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. {farthing: it is in value halfpenny farthing in the original, as being the tenth part of the Roman penny}
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:29-30​

... this is shown in so many places...
This is why Paul said:

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
2Co 13:6-8​

In other words, even when we sin we under in HIS will.

 

[Sargento]

DHC...

I do not need any other verse for you because what you deed was to pretend that it does not exist... what you're trying to say in a dissimulated way is "forget that, that its not written".

This is what Peter said:

"For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."​

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"​

and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message —which is also what they were destined for.​

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."​

1 Peter 2:6-9​

And this is what you've said about it:

A person fails because they disobey the message, this is what Peter states.​

Peter does not say "they fail because they were predestined to fail".​

More obvious than this????

You've deliberately ignored it and tried to act like it doesn't mean anything ... that does not come from someone who loves the truth.
If every time I show you your fault you act like this pretending not to see than i'm loosing my time...
Until you recognize your fault or show me mine I'll show no other verse (although I know you wish me to forget this one and move on to another)... because this is enough to refute you... you just pretend not to see it.

 

[DHC]

DHC...

I do not need any other verse for you because what you deed was to pretend that it does not exist... what you're trying to say in a dissimulated way is "forget that, that its not written".

You've deliberately ignored it and tried to act like it doesn't mean anything ... that does not come from someone who loves the truth.

Hello Sargento.


I never pretended that this verse does not exist. I explained what the verse
actually states Sargento. You need to understand what the word 'disobey'
means.

To 'disobey' naturally implies a failure to obey does it not!

"They stumble because they disobey the message"


Hence they would not stumble if they obeyed the message.
I have not missed the point Peter is making Sargento.

You missed the entire point that Peter is addressing. Obedience to
Jesus is the teaching of the scripture, disobedience causes stumbling.

If you stumble it is precisely because you disobey, no one stumbles who obeys.
Simple english, simple instruction, obey the instruction given by the Christ.

It is predestined that you will 'stumble' if you disobey Christ!


Here is the dictionary meaning of 'disobey'.

- failure or refusal to obey rules or someone in authority:

God the Father has given sole authority to the Son. If you 'disobey'
the Son you stumble and fall. This is the predestined fate of all who
'disobey'. You must read the entire sentence in context Sargento.


"They stumble because they disobey the message —which is also what they were destined for."

They have been predestined to stumble if they are disobedient to the Word.
It does not say 'they have been predestined to stumble'. Because Sargento, the
inclusion of the important word 'disobey' which implies a failure to obey!!!

God is love, you seem to stumble over this premier attribute of all
that God is. If you think that God tempts people to sin or to stumble. Then
you would be well advised to note the following;


James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.


God tempts no one, God by nature is kind and loving. It is not God's
wish that any perish but that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth.
God has not predestined anyone to hell! People go to hell because
they DISOBEY and reject the truth.


Do you love Jesus Sargento?

 

[james1523]

GOD's will is always done on earth... but one thing is what HE wants to happen (HIS plan in which you do not believe) or another thing his what HE order us to do which is another will.

Perhaps it would be clearer if you differentiate between the two different kinds of wills in your posts. Otherwise known in lay language as His perfect will, and His permissive will. God arranges one thing, but actively causes things to happen to the contrary. For example He desires all Israel to be saved, but He also hardened their hearts. At the same time, man's free will plays a part. Man has power to obey or disobey.

I can tell you that the early church, the authors of the scriptures, the disciples of the apostles, all believed in the free-will and power of man and human responsibility. It was the gnostics who were against the free-will of man, and the early church apologists argued against them.

For example I quote Irenaeus below, who was a learner of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle, and wrote extensively against heresies and supported the orthodoxy of the four gospels. 130-200 AD, from "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 1 Schaff, Philip", bold emphasis is mine:

"No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient.For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;”4403 referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,”4404 for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.”4405 And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.”4406 And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.”4407 If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God."

These are similar arguments to which many of us can see... if we did not have the power to obey or disobey God, if we did not have free will, then God would not ask us to do some things and not do other things.

Also, since God possesses free will, and man is created in His image, man must also possess free will.

Free will must exist otherwise God's rewards and punishments are not just.


The doctrine of free-will has been defended by the Christian church from the era of the apostles.

The free-will deniers (that is, the gnostics) really have no scriptural or historical basis to support their beliefs.

That is, Sargento, the author's of the scriptures believed in and defended the free-will of man. In light of this I hope you will reconsider your position.

Why did HE gave Israel the law? What was HIS will??? That they obey it or that the didn't obey it? What was the purpose of the law???
The Will HE revealed them was "do it", but this was ordered with the purpouse (his real will) of showing that they couldn't obey it.
The same rule applies here in your "riddle".

His will was that they obey it. His purpose was to show them that they couldn't obey it. That is understood.

But you haven't explained exactly why Jesus would teach us to pray God's will to be done on Earth, what is the purpose behind that? What is it that He wants us to learn? What is His real will?

 

[Sargento]

DHC...

Hello Sargento.


I never pretended that this verse does not exist. I explained what the verse
actually states Sargento. You need to understand what the word 'disobey'
means.

To 'disobey' naturally implies a failure to obey does it not!

"They stumble because they disobey the message"


Hence they would not stumble if they obeyed the message.
I have not missed the point Peter is making Sargento.

You missed the entire point that Peter is addressing. Obedience to
Jesus is the teaching of the scripture, disobedience causes stumbling.

If you stumble it is precisely because you disobey, no one stumbles who obeys.
Simple english, simple instruction, obey the instruction given by the Christ.

It is predestined that you will 'stumble' if you disobey Christ!


Here is the dictionary meaning of 'disobey'.

- failure or refusal to obey rules or someone in authority:

God the Father has given sole authority to the Son. If you 'disobey'
the Son you stumble and fall. This is the predestined fate of all who
'disobey'. You must read the entire sentence in context Sargento.


"They stumble because they disobey the message —which is also what they were destined for."

They have been predestined to stumble if they are disobedient to the Word.
It does not say 'they have been predestined to stumble'. Because Sargento, the
inclusion of the important word 'disobey' which implies a failure to obey!!!

God is love, you seem to stumble over this premier attribute of all
that God is. If you think that God tempts people to sin or to stumble. Then
you would be well advised to note the following;


James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.


God tempts no one, God by nature is kind and loving. It is not God's
wish that any perish but that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth.
God has not predestined anyone to hell! People go to hell because
they DISOBEY and reject the truth.


Do you love Jesus Sargento?

You're no longer innocent... No profit in waisting time with you because you do not want to see it.
Just one last advise... REPENT.

 

[Chad]

You're no longer innocent... No profit in waisting time with you because you do not want to see it.
Just one last advise... REPENT.

In regards to your attitude here and in another thread, your false teaching; account closed

 

[Fenn]

Thanks Chad. I was just going to point out this false teaching. I don't want to rehash everything, but for the benefit of those who seemed to be in agreement with Sargento I will post this.

This was his response to Romans1 26-27
King James Version (KJV)



26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Human nature IS UNCHANGEABLE... at least by it's own will (only GOD can - regeneration)... a will cannot go against it self... it can hate it self, but even that came from that same nature... no one can deliver a fruit from another tree but himself.

Humans ARE like animals... all those examples are IN the human nature.... humans can do and "learn" within their nature, not out of it... just like a lion's hunter nature can be "contained" by be wise tamer, but he will allways be a lion with the hunting instinct GOD gave him.

This passage in Romans specifically stats that people were going against their own nature, yet he refused to see it. He posted other scripture further down in his post that did not contradict this passage, but by ignoring this passage he incorrectly interpreted the scriptures he quoted.

Romans 1 says they changed their nature? Or was it GOD? Are you telling me that men attraction towards women or women towards men are an option???? Think better Feen...
...ask someone gay to decide not to be gay and he will laugh in your face (I'm talking about this "gay" example because is the one in this passage you used has an argument)...

I'll give you a challenge then so you can prove or argument here...
For one day, just for one day became gay... and I don't mean ACT like it, I mean BE it and FELL attraction to your own sex... don't worry, you'll be safe, it's just for one day than you can decide to be attracted to the opposite sex again. CAN YOU?

This has to be one of the worst things I have seen people post. Encouraging someone to go against their nature and against God's will to prove an argument. He obviously thought that it could not be done and felt no harm in this, but as we look at Romans 1 above we see that nature is changeable.

Romans 14:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.