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The Early Christian's beliefs in Purgatory

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I. The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory

I find it HILARIOUS how all of these Evangelical Protestants believe in the Rapture, which was NEVER believed until 1830, when it was invented by John Nelson Darby, but they won't believe in Purgatory which has been believed since the dawn of Christianity!! Not to mention the Jews believed in Purgatory.

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just." Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).


"Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd...He taught me…faithful writings...These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius." Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190).

"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease...But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment." The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202).

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

"All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich...Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.' Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand 'the prison' pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret 'the uttermost farthing' to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides." Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).
"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211).
"[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead...Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216).

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

"For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

"Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished." Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).

"The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307).

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9,10 (c. A.D. 350).

"I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest." Basil, Homilies on the Psalms, 7:2 (ante A.D. 370).

"Lay me not with sweet spices: for this honour avails me not; Nor yet incense and perfumes: for the honour benefits me not. Burn sweet spices in the Holy Place: and me, even me, conduct to the grave with prayer. Give ye incense to God: and over me send up hymns. Instead of perfumes of spices: in prayer make remembrance of me." Ephraem, His Testament (ante A.D. 373).

"Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their [the dead’s] behalf...it is useful, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily." Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 375).

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

"Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints....I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him." Ambrose, De obitu Theodosii, PL 16:1397 (A.D. 395).

"Other husbands scatter on the graves of their wives violets, roses, lilies, and purple flowers; and assuage the grief of their hearts by fulfilling this tender duty. Our dear Pammachius also waters the holy ashes and the revered bones of Paulina, but it is with the balm of almsgiving." Jerome, To Pammachius, Epistle 66:5 (A.D. 397).

"Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for,

"Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven." Mourn for those who have died in wealth, and did not from their wealth think of any solace for their soul, who had power to wash away their sins and would not. Let us all weep for these in private and in public, but with propriety, with gravity, not so as to make exhibitions of ourselves; let us weep for these, not one day, or two, but all our life. Such tears spring not from senseless passion, but from true affection. The other sort are of senseless passion. For this cause they are quickly quenched, whereas if they spring from the fear of God, they always abide with us. Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Phillipians, 3 (ante A.D. 404).

"If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works." Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).

"Now on what ground does this person pray that he may not be 'rebuked in indignation, nor chastened in hot displeasure"? He speaks as if he would say unto God, 'Since the things which I already suffer are many in number, I pray Thee let them suffice;' and he begins to enumerate them, by way of satisfying God; offering what he suffers now, that he may not have to suffer worse evils hereafter." Augustine, Exposition of the Psalms, 38(37):3 (A.D. 418).

"And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they 'shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say 'suitable,' I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'" Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).

"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth." Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).

"For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,--not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man's graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another's wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come." Augustine, City of God, 21:13 (A.D. 426).

"But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession...For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, "They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.' But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,' and to those on the other side, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,' and 'These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,' it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal." Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426).

"If we neither give thanks to God in tribulations nor redeem our own sins by good works, we shall have to remain in that purgatorian fire as long as it takes for those above-mentioned lesser sins to be consumed like wood and straw and hay." Ceasar of Arles, Sermon 179 (104):2 (A.D. 542).
"Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven 'either in this world or in the world to come'(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions." Gregory the Great [regn. A.D. 590-604], Dialogues, 4:39 (A.D. 594).
 
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another reminder.

I find it HILARIOUS how all of these Evangelical Protestants believe in the Rapture, which was NEVER believed until 1930, when it was invented by John Nelson Darby, but they won't believe in Purgatory which has been believed since the dawn of Christianity!! Not to mention the Jews believed in Purgatory.
You find it funny in what others believe? Many Protestants do not believe in rapture here, if you would take the time to check the forums.

Your new here, and I already find a lot of pride in your comments. I will be kind enough to post this again.

Just a reminder of the rules of "THIS" forum. We recognize the bible being 66 books. Everything proved true in this forum comes from some scripture and passages from those 66 books. We do not recognize any hidden books (Apocrypha) or other works.

We also don't recognize any denomination as having authority, including the Catholic Church.

There are lot's to talk about within those 66 books, and you will have to prove what you are trying to teach from those 66 books, so make sure your able to do so.

Thank you.
I trust from here on out, that you will not go overboard in getting my unwanted attention again.

Jesus Is Lord.
 
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New Member
It really matters not who believed what when or why. The bible teaches that heresy was prevalent from the start. So seeing that heresy has made its way through out the generations we need not rely upon the words of men as if they are to be held to the standard of the Word of God that came as holy men spake as they were moved. I stack all of these works and words of men up with those who are called the Great Theologians of the past into one pile and call it the Mars Hill of Christianity. Everyone may come and eat of the fruit of these men and receive the reward that that fruit shall bring. Me, I prefer to listen to the anointing, that I received of God, which interprets the holy scriptures for me and guides me into all truth.

1 Corinthians 3 does not speak of a place called Purgatory. It speaks of the destruction of carnal Christians. It is they who are carnal who have condemnation abiding in them. They are the wood, hay and stubble that will be burnt up, not the works of their hands but they themselves. Those who are of God and are the fellow workers of God as Paul and Apollos were, are the ones who will suffer loss after travailing these in birth and raising them up unable to bring them to perfection and thus suffering the loss of them. Every man must be careful, diligent how he builds upon that foundation which is Christ, the foundation of the temple of God the Father that dwells in it via his Holy Spirit. This simple truth is to be understood within the complete context of what is written. Paul begins the thought by speaking of the carnal divisions of the Corinthian believers through the worship of mere men and the doctrines they brought in verse 10 of chapter 1 and concludes the thought in chapter 4 and verse 7. In the midst of the complete contextual thought Paul speaks of this destruction of carnal believers and caps off said destruction by stating the following:

16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

You may want to believe that God is only going to burn up your works that are evil or that there is a time limit set for the purging of that which is wood, hay or stubble. The truth of the scripture is the loss of the believer themselves. God is not willing that any believer should perish as Peter tells us but desires that all who believe should come to repentance. Those who having been brought to the fullness of the stature that is in Christ Jesus through the instruction of pastors and teachers such as Paul and Apollos, being born again of the Word of God, walking as Christ walked shall suffer no such thing but have boldness in the day of judgment. Those who continue in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth will have nothing to look forward to except the fearful judgment of God whose wrath shall devour the enemies.

Do not err my beloved brethren. He who endures temptation shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him as God does not allow any of us to be tempted above that which we are able. For those who do fall into sin through ignorance, fear and weakness there is an advocate with the Father in heaven. Call upon him for deliverance from sin. Walk in the light as God the Father is in the light and then you will have fellowship with him and under this condition shall the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanse you from all sin.

May God the Father be merciful and through his goodness lead all unto repentance not to be repented of to the acknowledging of the truth, that Jesus is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh and he that does righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous and God the Father is just and the justifier of him that believes in Jesus, therefore picking up their own cross, denying themselves and following him in all his ways.

In Jesus Name,

Gary
 
I find it HILARIOUS how all of these Evangelical Protestants......won't believe in Purgatory which has been believed since the dawn of Christianity!! Not to mention the Jews believed in Purgatory.
Any group or person that believed in purgatory was definitely not following the "faith that was delivered unto the saints" (Jude 1:3). Would you care to post some biblical references to purgatory, NOT just certain peoples' beliefs on the matter?

Let God be true and every man a liar! Romans 3:4
 
New Member
I. The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory

I find it HILARIOUS how all of these Evangelical Protestants believe in the Rapture, which was NEVER believed until 1930, when it was invented by John Nelson Darby, but they won't believe in Purgatory which has been believed since the dawn of Christianity!! Not to mention the Jews believed in Purgatory.

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just." Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).


"Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd...He taught me…faithful writings...These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius." Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190).

"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease...But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment." The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202).

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

"All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich...Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.' Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand 'the prison' pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret 'the uttermost farthing' to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides." Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).
"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211).
"[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead...Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216).

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

"For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

"Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished." Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).

"The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307).

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9,10 (c. A.D. 350).

"I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest." Basil, Homilies on the Psalms, 7:2 (ante A.D. 370).

"Lay me not with sweet spices: for this honour avails me not; Nor yet incense and perfumes: for the honour benefits me not. Burn sweet spices in the Holy Place: and me, even me, conduct to the grave with prayer. Give ye incense to God: and over me send up hymns. Instead of perfumes of spices: in prayer make remembrance of me." Ephraem, His Testament (ante A.D. 373).

"Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their [the dead’s] behalf...it is useful, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily." Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 375).

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

"Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints....I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him." Ambrose, De obitu Theodosii, PL 16:1397 (A.D. 395).

"Other husbands scatter on the graves of their wives violets, roses, lilies, and purple flowers; and assuage the grief of their hearts by fulfilling this tender duty. Our dear Pammachius also waters the holy ashes and the revered bones of Paulina, but it is with the balm of almsgiving." Jerome, To Pammachius, Epistle 66:5 (A.D. 397).

"Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for,

"Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven." Mourn for those who have died in wealth, and did not from their wealth think of any solace for their soul, who had power to wash away their sins and would not. Let us all weep for these in private and in public, but with propriety, with gravity, not so as to make exhibitions of ourselves; let us weep for these, not one day, or two, but all our life. Such tears spring not from senseless passion, but from true affection. The other sort are of senseless passion. For this cause they are quickly quenched, whereas if they spring from the fear of God, they always abide with us. Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Phillipians, 3 (ante A.D. 404).

"If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works." Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).

"Now on what ground does this person pray that he may not be 'rebuked in indignation, nor chastened in hot displeasure"? He speaks as if he would say unto God, 'Since the things which I already suffer are many in number, I pray Thee let them suffice;' and he begins to enumerate them, by way of satisfying God; offering what he suffers now, that he may not have to suffer worse evils hereafter." Augustine, Exposition of the Psalms, 38(37):3 (A.D. 418).

"And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they 'shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say 'suitable,' I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'" Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).

"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth." Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).

"For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,--not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man's graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another's wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come." Augustine, City of God, 21:13 (A.D. 426).

"But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession...For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, "They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.' But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,' and to those on the other side, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,' and 'These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,' it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal." Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426).

"If we neither give thanks to God in tribulations nor redeem our own sins by good works, we shall have to remain in that purgatorian fire as long as it takes for those above-mentioned lesser sins to be consumed like wood and straw and hay." Ceasar of Arles, Sermon 179 (104):2 (A.D. 542).
"Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven 'either in this world or in the world to come'(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions." Gregory the Great [regn. A.D. 590-604], Dialogues, 4:39 (A.D. 594).
What you have firmly established here, and in the thread you entitled "Jesus founded the Catholic Church" beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever, is the sure fact of ecclesiastical history that the church of Christ was very early riven asunder with heresy, even from the first centuries, just as Paul and the other apostles warned would happen, 'grievous wolves entering the church not sparing the flock'.
This abominable heresy took its form in many guises, but its general direction was downward, and further and further away from the Lord. Its pace accelerated in the sixth century when the bishops of Rome coveted the civil power of the absent Roman pagan emperors, and the beast from hell began to take shape. Early usurping the true authority of Jesus Christ and claiming rule over heaven, the earth, and even hell.
When others disagreed with this, and claimed the scriptures and the Author of them as their authority, the bishops of Rome, now granting themselves the title 'pontifex maximus' after the order of the Caesars, began persecuting dissenters with the same vigour as the former occupants of the Roman throne. Revealing the true nature of their unconverted hearts, these opposers of truth and righteousness became bitter enemies of Christ, hardened in their wickedness until the fruits of their rebelliousness found joy in killing as many as possible those who refused to bow their knees to Baal, audaciously giving their iniquitous practice an official title as if to lend it some spiritual value, the Inquisition. It is considered by conservative historians that between 50 and 100 million people have died at the hands of the church of Rome over matters of conscience over the 1200 odd years of her initial reign. (From the sixth century to the 18th.)
This self proclaimed "right" to punish, persecute, and even kill all who they claim as 'heretics', is one that the church of Rome would still practice today if they had but the freedom to do so. But the Bible does say that soon she will have that freedom, even more so the approbation and support of protestant apostasy, and once again any who dare refuse to recognise papal authority will face the hatred and enmity of Rome.
So the early church "fathers" taught and believed in purgatory? No, not quite. They believed in praying for the dead, yes, but the doctrine of purgatory didn't come about until Gregory 1 in 593. That was just one of the first steps down the long road to rock bottom. Prayers for the dead, the sign of the cross, wax candles, veneration of dead saints and angels, the 'mass', the beginning of the exaltation of Mary, priests adorning themselves different from laymen, extreme unction, the 'official' declaration of purgatory by Gregory in 593, kissing of the popes foot in 709, universal temporal power claimed in 709, official sanction of the worship of the cross and images and relics in 786, and on and on and on. In 1229 the Bible was forbidden to be read by laymen, and placed on the index of 'forbidden books'.
Anyone caught copying the Bible in the language of the common people and disseminating same was burnt at the stake and his work along with him. Or if the church was too late in catching the culprit, they exhumed his remains and disposed of it elsewhere.
As recently as 1864 the Bible was placed on the "Syllabus of Errors" by Pius X. Ratified by the first Vatican council as the 'truth of God', this syllabus condemned freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press.
At the height of her power the papacy had become the world's despot. Kings and Emperors alike bowed and cringed before the haughty arrogance of the popes. Dissenters were mercilessly sought and butchered. And today, Benedict 16 is avidly coveting civil power again. Shamelessly promoting himself as the only candidate with the 'moral mandate of the people', he even now is eyeing the leadership of the coming new world order as the vehicle upon which the papacy will once again rise to the ascendant heights of world dominion. And once again, Babylon the Great will be drunk with the blood of the saints.
And this is the church founded by Jesus?
 
Loyal Member
What an amazing post.
Augustine, Abercius, Clement, Tertullian, Basil, Jerome...
Quite a list of names. I'm sure they were important people.
None of them are mentioned in the Bible. None of them wrote any parts of the Bible. None of them were apostles or disciples. None of them were prophets, or leaders of Israel, or a judge or king of the Jews. When Jesus mentioned the prophets of the OT (Matt 23:35 and Luke 11:51) he started with Abel (Genesis, first book of the OT) and ended with Zechariah (2nd to the last book of the OT, but written after Malachi), he didn't mention any of the books of the apocrypha, even though they were written before he came to earth... I have to wonder why he didn't recognize them?

Nearly 5000 words, and I saw only 1 scripture. (Matt 12:32 I believe).
I see dates of 200, 300 and 400 AD. Possibly they are even valid, I won't dispute those people said these things on those dates.

We can believe what other people say about Christianity, or we can believe the Bible and the people who wrote it themselves. They don't always agree, so which one should we choose?

Luke 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
hmm.. you die.. you go to Paradise (Abrahams's bosom) or you go to Hell (hades) no purgatory here.

2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
..we are in the body, or we are with the Lord, no middle place.. no purgatory here.

Jesus told the thief on the cross...
Luke 23:42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
.. Jesus didn't say next week, next year, or once "you've earned it". No purgatory here.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
..once we die, that's it. No second chances, no purgatory.

If we can "earn" our way into heaven, by.. being "good enough", or praying enough, or giving enough money to the church, or doing good deeds, what do we need Jesus for?
If our salvation can be changed after we are dead, by other people praying for us.. what do we need Jesus for?

We are saved by Jesus alone. Either you believe in him when you die, or you don't. There is no second opportunity for this to change after you die.

There will be a day, when everyone will realize who Jesus is.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

We can do it now willingly, or we can say it and recognize it too late.. but either way, we all will know who Jesus is.
 
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New Member
You find it funny in what others believe? Many Protestants do not believe in rapture here, if you would take the time to check the forums.
I find it funny because those that believe in the Rapture, also claim that the Catholic Church invented Purgatory, which is exactly the opposite; Purgatory has always been believed, the Rapture was the doctrine that was invented
 
New Member
I find it funny because those that believe in the Rapture, also claim that the Catholic Church invented Purgatory, which is exactly the opposite; Purgatory has always been believed, the Rapture was the doctrine that was invented

Again, Friend, where is the scripture to prove your Purgatory?
 
New Member
Hello ucs1923.

Rapture is not a biblical word I agree, but the apostle Paul
did describe an event which sure sounds similar. Read the
text below ucs1923.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive an
d remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the
Lord
.


Rising up into the air to be with the Lord is also found in the Old and New Testaments.
Even Jesus disappeared into the clouds in Acts.


This not what Christians have invented, this is what is written.
 
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New Member
Rapture is not a biblical word I agree, but the apostle Paul
did describe an event which sure sounds similar. Read the
text below ucs1923.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive an
d remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the
Lord
.


Rising up into the air to be with the Lord is also found in the Old and New Testaments.
Even Jesus disappeared into the clouds in Acts.


This not what Christians have invented, this is what is written.
Yup That fits Hence the word Ratpure.....
Rapture

[rap-cher]   Origin
rap·ture

   [rap-cher] Show IPA noun, verb -tured, -tur·ing.
noun 1. ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstasy.

2. Often, raptures. an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight.

3. the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence.

4. the Rapture, Theology . the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth.

5. Archaic . the act of carrying off.
 
New Member
Agreed El Hombre viejo.

Well said, to ignore this would be rather foolish.

I am not to interested in what people believe.

Nor in what an organization might proclaim.

We have the revelation of Jesus Christ in
complete form within the scriptures.

They are the inspired by God, God breathed.
 
New Member
Well said, to ignore this would be rather foolish.

I am not to interested in what people believe.

Nor in what an organization might proclaim.

We have the revelation of Jesus Christ in
complete form within the scriptures.

They are the inspired by God, God breathed.
Ayuh That covers it.

Did you ever notice? Gravity is not mentioned in the Bible? That was invented by a Spanish monk in 1831
 
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scripture.

David777
Rapture is not a biblical word I agree, but the apostle Paul
did describe an event which sure sounds similar. Read the
text below ucs1923.
Rapture is not any less biblical than the word Salvation, or caught up. Rapture is a English word derived from the Latin word Rapiemur.

Rapiemur means to "Take away" "Removed"

harpazō Is a Greek word, meaning to snatch suddenly, same Word we get Harpoon from.

English translators used "caught up (KJV)" to translate Harpazo.
Latin bible used the word "Rapiemur" to Translate Harpazo

I find it funny because those that believe in the Rapture, also claim that the Catholic Church invented Purgatory, which is exactly the opposite; Purgatory has always been believed, the Rapture was the doctrine that was invented
I still don't find anything funny, There is also a rapture of people here on earth, "Harpazo"

According to mythology, Purgatory is a state where one must go for sanctification before entering Heaven. In other words, the Blood of Jesus was to diluted to work the first time.

I want scripture that tells of this after death sanctification, before being clean enough to enter Heaven.

I already gave you a friendly warning once, that we must use scriptures to prove a point, here is your claim again about purgatory. So, I better start seeing some scriptures.

Jesus Is Lord.

 
ucs1923: I can show and give you respect, and as a follower of Christ where Jesus says that the world will know you are my learners by the love you show one another.

I don't find anything hilarious about believing in a "rapture" even though I do not agree with those who do. This is a inhouse debate, and not a reason to poke fun or belittle a fellow christian.

I have more of a concern about you using using extra non biblical material that most protestants do not believe is inspired. Granted these books are history, but not considered to be even close to reliable as Scripture.

There is a gullf between Catholic and Protestant beliefs that is very wide. Mainly as I see it that Catholics are Universalists, where many Protestant believers believe that if we reject Jesus Christ as Lord there is no second chance aftert death. For me that's deeper than purgatory or confessing yuor sins to a priest, or praying to Mary.

John Darby is really not as big an issue as you make it out to be in the world of being a protestant. A much bigger issue is can a person loose your salvation/ This divides many protastants. For me I believe in the security of the believer.

I can see you are very well rooted in Catholic doctrine, and I doubt anything I can say would change your mind or you to change mine. So go in peace, and don't be so quick to lump all protestants together, we all are not the same, just like catholics.
 
New Member
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, "You fool!" shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Luke 12:58-5

58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”[a]

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Luke 16:9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations

Zechariah 9:11As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your captives free from the waterless pit

Ephesians 4:8-10. . . "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "he ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:19-20 . . . he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

1 Peter 4:6

English Standard Version (ESV)

6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

2 Corinthians 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

2 Corinthians 7:1. . . let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God

1 Thessalonians 3:13

13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4
7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness

Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 5:3,13 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it. . . .And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honour and glory and might for ever and ever!"

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord

Hebrews 12:5-11

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.” 7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Hebrews 12:23

English Standard Version (ESV)

23 and to the assembly[a] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect

1 John 3:2-3

English Standard Version (ESV)

2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears[a] we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.






 
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Here I compare the Biblical verses for Purgatory to how the Church Fathers interpreted them:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Luke 12:58-59 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

"All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich...Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.' Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand 'the prison' pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret 'the uttermost farthing' to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides." Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).

"For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

"I think that the noble athletes of God,who have wrestled all their lives with the invisble enemies,after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin,they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain,they are, as unconquered,brought by Christ into their rest." (Basil the GreatHomilies on the Psalms 7:2 [c. ante AD 370])


1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is JesusChrist. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

"The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307).

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

"If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works." Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).

"And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they 'shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say 'suitable,' I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'" Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

"But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession...For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, "They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.' But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,' and to those on the other side, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,' and 'These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,' it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal." Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426).

Luke 16:19-31 There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; . . . the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame." But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things, but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us." And he said, "Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And he said, "No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent." He said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead."

"Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished." Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).
<o:happy:> </o:happy:>
 
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The aforementioned quotes from UCS1923 are perfect examples of the depth of deception that man has succumbed to because he doesn't believe what God plainly tells us regarding the state of the dead. Catholics will claim that the dead go to either heaven, hell, or purgatory, the Protestant will claim that the dead only go to either heaven or hell. Both are dead wrong.
After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2). At the second coming Christ calls the righteous from their graves, not from anywhere else.

The teaching of purgatory is a classic example of antichrist doctrine. The Bible says that Jesus paid the full price for our redemption. Through Jesus and acceptance of His full and final ransom paid on our behalf we are assured of our salvation; assured that at the second coming we will have a part in the first resurrection unless we are alive at that wonderful time and we are 'caught up' (or raptured if you like) to meet Jesus in the air; assured that we are totally completely forgiven for all sin regardless of the nature of that sin or its magnitude; assured that there is no further debt to be paid.

The Roman church however says "no". Jesus didn't pay the full price for your redemption. The church, through the authority bestowed upon her by Christ, has the last say whether you go to heaven , hell, or how long you remain suffering in purgatory. Put some more money in the offering box on behalf of your deceased loved one and we will offer up prayers for him and gain him an earlier release. If you donate enough money we will even consider saying an entire mass on his behalf and secure an immediate entrance into heaven. Thus the church has usurped Christ's authority and boldly, blasphemously, and presumptuously placed herself in the mediatorial role in Christ's stead. Which my friends is the perfect fulfilment of the prophetic role of antichrist. One who stands in the place of Christ.
 
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The aforementioned quotes from UCS1923 are perfect examples of the depth of deception that man has succumbed to because he doesn't believe what God plainly tells us regarding the state of the dead. Catholics will claim that the dead go to either heaven, hell, or purgatory, the Protestant will claim that the dead only go to either heaven or hell. Both are dead wrong.
After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2). At the second coming Christ calls the righteous from their graves, not from anywhere else.

The teaching of purgatory is a classic example of antichrist doctrine. The Bible says that Jesus paid the full price for our redemption. Through Jesus and acceptance of His full and final ransom paid on our behalf we are assured of our salvation; assured that at the second coming we will have a part in the first resurrection unless we are alive at that wonderful time and we are 'caught up' (or raptured if you like) to meet Jesus in the air; assured that we are totally completely forgiven for all sin regardless of the nature of that sin or its magnitude; assured that there is no further debt to be paid.

The Roman church however says "no". Jesus didn't pay the full price for your redemption. The church, through the authority bestowed upon her by Christ, has the last say whether you go to heaven , hell, or how long you remain suffering in purgatory. Put some more money in the offering box on behalf of your deceased loved one and we will offer up prayers for him and gain him an earlier release. If you donate enough money we will even consider saying an entire mass on his behalf and secure an immediate entrance into heaven. Thus the church has usurped Christ's authority and boldly, blasphemously, and presumptuously placed herself in the mediatorial role in Christ's stead. Which my friends is the perfect fulfilment of the prophetic role of antichrist. One who stands in the place of Christ.




Psalm 104:27-30 (New International Version)

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-15599">27</sup> All creatures look to you
to give them their food at the proper time.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-15600">28</sup> When you give it to them,
they gather it up;
when you open your hand,
they are satisfied with good things.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-15601">29</sup> When you hide your face,
they are terrified;
when you take away their breath,
they die and return to the dust.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-15602">30</sup> When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.



After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29) This verse is not talking about man. You've taken it out of context.



Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17480">4</sup>For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17481">5</sup>For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17482">6</sup>Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.




The living know that they will die, the dead (in sin) know nothing.

you took this verse out of context




Psalm 146:1-5

<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-16343">1</sup>PRAISE THE Lord! (Hallelujah!) Praise the Lord, O my soul! <sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-16344">2</sup>While I live will I praise the Lord; I will sing praises to my God while I have any being.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-16345">3</sup>Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-16346">4</sup>When his breath leaves him, he returns to his earth; in that very day his [previous] thoughts, plans, and purposes perish.<sup class="xref" value="(<a href=&quot;#cen-AMP-16346A&quot; title=&quot;See cross-reference A&quot;>A</a>)">(A)</sup>
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-16347">5</sup>Happy (blessed, fortunate, enviable) is he who has the God of [special revelation to] Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God,<sup class="xref" value="(<a href=&quot;#cen-AMP-16347B&quot; title=&quot;See cross-reference B&quot;>B</a>)">(B)</sup>
<sup class="xref" value="(<a href=&quot;#cen-AMP-16347B&quot; title=&quot;See cross-reference B&quot;>B</a>)">
</sup>


The WORD says his plans and purposes end not his thoughts.
Again you've taken WORD out of context




Ecclesiastes 9:6 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17482">6</sup>Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


Its a single verse but you used this one correctly.




2 Kings 20 (King James Version)

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-10100">1</sup>In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.


What? After death a person does not live? This verse does not say that. The prophet told Hezekiah that he was going to die. He said nothing about after the man died.
You took this verse out of context.




Job 17:10-16 (New International Version)

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-13271">10</sup> “But come on, all of you, try again!
I will not find a wise man among you.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-13272">11</sup> My days have passed, my plans are shattered.
Yet the desires of my heart
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-13273">12</sup> turn night into day;
in the face of the darkness light is near.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-13274">13</sup> If the only home I hope for is the grave,
if I spread out my bed in the realm of darkness,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-13275">14</sup> if I say to corruption, ‘You are my father,’
and to the worm, ‘My mother’ or ‘My sister,’
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-13276">15</sup> where then is my hope—
who can see any hope for me?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-13277">16</sup> Will it go down to the gates of death?
Will we descend together into the dust?”



The dead wait in the grave? Job was questioning God. Speculating. Read on to where God answers him. You took this out of context.


ob 14 (King James Version)

Job 14

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-13183">1</sup>Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-13184">2</sup>He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-13185">3</sup>And doth thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?



Talks about the shortness of our Earthly life. It does not say we cease to exist.




You said "At the second coming Christ calls the righteous from their graves, not from anywhere else." You have scripture for this?


While I agree with everything you said about Purgatory (it is a scam by the Romanist church) I have to say your use of scripture is faulty. You have to keep things in context and not use scripture to back up your beliefs, but rather, line up your beliefs to scripture.
 
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Here I compare the Biblical verses for Purgatory to how the Church Fathers interpreted them:<!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /-->

Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Luke 12:58-59 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

"All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich...Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.' Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand 'the prison' pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret 'the uttermost farthing' to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides." Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).

"For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

"I think that the noble athletes of God,who have wrestled all their lives with the invisble enemies,after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin,they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain,they are, as unconquered,brought by Christ into their rest." (Basil the GreatHomilies on the Psalms 7:2 [c. ante AD 370])


1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is JesusChrist. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

"The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307).

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

"If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works." Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).

"And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they 'shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say 'suitable,' I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'" Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

"But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession...For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, "They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.' But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,' and to those on the other side, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,' and 'These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,' it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal." Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426).

Luke 16:19-31 There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; . . . the poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame." But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things, but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us." And he said, "Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." And he said, "No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent." He said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead."

"Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished." Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).


UCS You still have not given any scripture that mentions a temporary hell, cleansing place or the like. Purgatory
 
Thank you for the scriptures.

Thank you for the scriptures.

Mat 5:25
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

As with all false doctrine, any possible scripture turns into what you want it to say, to prove something that is not there. How you perceive Purgatory from this goes beyond what I am able to imagine.

Even other denominational types do this, as the same confusing spirit works among mankind, not respecting one false belief over another.

Some of those in their dogged attempts to prove post trib rapture have used this to mean God hates those that believe in Pre-Trib rapture. "We fly away???"


Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

We see the same confusing spirit working in their camps, twisting meaning of the eternal Word to their own hurt. The spirit of pride, and inability to be taught, keep them from the race set before them.

=======================================

Also you seem to have the inability to follow direction. This could mean a more serious issues that extend beyond our ability to cope with here, possibly looking into medical reasons into why you have this certain issue. I told you we only accept the Word of God for proving things, and yet that was hard to understand for some reason.

Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426)
Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448
Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41

I will just remind you again without taking any further action, I have no idea who those people are, but we don't use Dr. Seuss, Disney, or any other fictional, historical work to prove truth here. Just the Word of God.

I thank you for taking the time to provide what you believe supports the concept of purgatory. This is a bible study section and I may move this post to the lounge, or some place more appropriate. I will give it more time to revive itself with real answers to other members that post here.

Jesus Is Lord.
 

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