The Controlled Fall

[NetChaplain]

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act. I believe the Enemy did not inject something but rather revealed something preexisting.

Eve's disobedience was due to deception, for "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim 2:14); "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty" (2 Cor 11:3). The evidence of her sin nature was that she saw, "a tree to be desired to make one wise" (Gen 3:6); and we must realize this was before the temptation.

These three causes of Eve in Genesis 3:6 have been paralleled with 1 John 2:16; "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world." She was familiar with the fact that "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" (Gen 2:9), but this scenario did not apply to a tree to be desired to make one wise.

Adam's disobedience was due to putting God's word second to his wife, for he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" (Gen 3:17). Scripture is not clear concerning Adam's reason for the disobedience, other than "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat" (Gen 3:12). This sounds like blame but I think Adam was just stating a truth, not blaming Eve because my conjecture is that out of compassion for Eve, he was willing to die with her.

The crux of this concept is to portray that God in His omniscience "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph 1:11); "according to His own purpose and grace" (2 Tim 1:9). Simply put, what transpired was the way He desired it to go, or He would have done it another way.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I think Adam was just stating a truth, not blaming Eve because my conjecture is that out of compassion for Eve, he was willing to die with her.

That's the romantic version and what I would want to believe if Adam were my son,but I think there is reasonable suspicion to consider that Adam was using Eve as a dupe and perhaps watched her closely as she ate.

The serpent was a beast of the field created by God and named by Adam.
A name is more than just identification it denotes character so Adam knew this serpent very well.

At the beginning everything was good until:
Genesis 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

God made the animals for Adam and whatever Adam "called them" became their name.
The most cunning beast of the field could apparently talk and it pointed out the difference between them and God.
A difference that Adam knew because he felt "alone".
We are not told how long Adam found comfort in the animals and he apparently could talk to at least one of them.
I could suspect the serpent himself because the name serpent speaks of serpentine as in ,flexible,wavering or even doubting and questioning God's character.This serpent is not Satan the accuser though,he will make his appearance as the accuser in Adams accusation against God "the woman you gave me",and then further tries to distance himself from the matter by accusing Eve.

It's Adams response that bothers me as far as I know this is the very first accusation.
If Adam gave the animals their character then they are like a manifold projection of Adams character so it's possible the serpent(let not the waving man think he shall receive anything from God) was a reflection of something inside Adam.

Eve's disobedience was due to deception, for "Adam was not deceived",

I agree but whats worse being deceived or being a deceiver.


Everybody is so hard on Eve but God gives her seed the honor of crushing the serpents seed.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

I WRITE THIS KNOWING FULL WELL THAT IT MAY BE CONSIDERED BY SOME AS A POINT OF CONTENTION .. ....I had a real problem with this issue of Adam and Eve when i first got saved ..due to the fact the seven deadly sins didnt come into play until after the transgression of the fruit ..yet Eve saw the fruit and it was pleasing to Her eye .(Lust of the eye ).. What im about to share was shown to me by a pastor in Texas (steve vanzant) and it set so well to the answering the question of timing i thought id share....FIRST.. the misleading spirit had to came through EVE because Adam knew The creatures of the fields and thier nature ( He alone was given dominian over them ) and would have noticed an outside influenece.!!! SECOND.. EVE wasnt drawn by lust of the Eye but buy the chance to be more like God, not in a bad way but she wanted to be more like Him than she was ..( Imitation is the most sincere of flattery ) as far as revealing a sin in her that existed ..ADAM AND EVE were perfect in Gods image with out flaw hidden or otherwise or they would not have been in communion with Him as they were !!...The devil Knows our weakness and will most certinly use our desire to serve God aganist us at times thats why we hide His word in our heart as to not sin against Him..! if you dont belive that just look at the mess our churches are in and how many are as in Romans 10 : 1-4
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. God gives credit for their trying but the mark is missed due to not knowing the will and rightiouness of Our Lord and His will for our lives....this is IMHO onlly ..but i can say this much for sure NO SIN was in Adam and Eve They were in perfection of creation and in perfect communion with God.....Rev

 

[NetChaplain]

Nice interesting comments TCH and thanks for the reply!

 

[NetChaplain]

Nice and interesting comments Rev. Perkins and thanks for your reply.

 

[NetChaplain]

It's true that until they were tested (for their learning, not God's), disobedience was not in their mind, but it's tendency was shown to be in their heart and I think God placing the tree there was His first lesson to begin revealing to man His will and desires. I believe God's plan was for man to "become as One of Us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22)", which is related to Their desire to "make man in Our image, after Our likeness" (Gen 1:26).


There's no other reasonable conception for Him placing it in the Garden, and in the middle, along with the tree of life (Gen 2:9; 3:3). I believe this is where He chose to start teaching us because He had to start somewhere. There's a good reason why God allowed the temptation, it wasn't a casual or unforeseen occurrence because all occurrences are foreknown and pre-planned according to His purpose.


Though no act of disobedience was present prior to the temptation, this does not confirm the absence of its tendency in them. The Enemies beguilement did not implant the desires Eve had within her (Gen 3:6), His temptation was an arousal to what was already there, prior to the act of disobedience, for it shows these desires in her after the temptation but prior to the disobedient act.


Either Eve possessed the tendency prior to the act or the Enemy implanted it in her heart and mind. I do not think the Lord would allow the devil to implant evil in them or he could have his way with them.


It's true that until they were tested (for their learning, not God's), disobedience was not in their mind, but it's tendency was shown to be in their heart and I think God placing the tree there was His first lesson to begin revealing to man His will and desires. I believe God's plan was for man to "become as One of Us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22)", which is related to Their desire to "make man in Our image, after Our likeness" (Gen 1:26).


There's no other reasonable conception for Him placing it in the Garden, and in the middle, along with the tree of life (Gen 2:9; 3:3). I believe this is where He chose to start teaching us because He had to start somewhere. There's a good reason why God allowed the temptation, it wasn't a casual or unforeseen occurrence because all occurrences are foreknown and pre-planned according to His purpose.


Though no act of disobedience was present prior to the temptation, this does not confirm the absence of its tendency in them. The Enemies beguilement did not implant the desires Eve had within her (Gen 3:6), His temptation was an arousal to what was already there, prior to the act of disobedience, for it shows these desires in her after the temptation but prior to the disobedient act.


Either Eve possessed the tendency prior to the act or the Enemy implanted it in her heart and mind. I do not think the Lord would allow the devil to implant evil in them or he could have his way with them.


I believe Satan can only test our desires (for our learning), not force his desires for our defilement. I believe if God did not intend man to sin, He would have not allowed the sin nature (old man) to become part of us and the tree would have not been of a necessity in His plans, nor the devil, whom God planned prior to creation in using.


I believe it is noteworthy to point out that any concept which does not relate to receiving salvation or that does not necessarily promote growth within it (such as my post in this thread) should not be considered essential to the believer.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

I agree and have Always said that salvation is what should be the main concern now or as in the past so all get to hear the plan of salvation before Christs return...But I am glad to share a good theory now and again and have no problem calling it one....blessings and thanks for the insight...Rev. P.S. It's on my to ask list when we get to heaven...lol

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

There's no other reasonable conception for Him placing it in the Garden, and in the middle, along with the tree of life (Gen 2:9; 3:3). I believe this is where He chose to start teaching us because He had to start somewhere. There's a good reason why God allowed the temptation, it wasn't a casual or unforeseen occurrence because all occurrences are foreknown and pre-planned according to His purpose.

In a court of law I could accuse a manufacturer of being negligent for ignoring foreseeable hazards
so I agree with your controlled fall theory.
The Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world for a reason.
Not only that but God is love so I find it hard to believe we were ever in any real danger at any time.

Originally snake bite anti-venom was made by injecting a horse with venom,the horse had enough mass and strength to live and fight off the venom by creating an anti-venom in it's blood.
It's possible that the man was divided up into a large enough mass of cells to create the anti-venom that would answer that old wavering cyclical tree of understanding called the knowledge of good and evil.

Either Eve possessed the tendency prior to the act or the Enemy implanted it in her heart and mind. I do not think the Lord would allow the devil to implant evil in them or he could have his way with them.

I think we have to answer the "not good that the man should be alone" issue to get a better picture.
It is the first "not good" or missing the mark event in scripture.

I believe it is noteworthy to point out that any concept which does not relate to receiving salvation or that does not necessarily promote growth within it (such as my post in this thread) should not be considered essential to the believer.

I agree,its helpful but not critical but I'm a miner for the heart of God and I have sunk a lot of shafts in the garden.

 

[bgsda]

Hello all. Please dont get mad at me. IDK if im the only one hat see it but it seems like God only told Adam not to touch of the tree. That is why He called only Adam after the fall and asked the questions to Adam. Then He told Eve to that Adam was to rule over her. Why?

I truly believe that Eve was not in her correct place, so to speak. If she was where Adam was I believe this wouldnt have happened, but like alot of modern day Eves wanted to be like the man. We can see society know and compare what happened in the garden of Eden, to what modern day Eves r doing now.

 

[NetChaplain]

In a court of law I could accuse a manufacturer of being negligent for ignoring foreseeable hazards
so I agree with your controlled fall theory.
The Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world for a reason.
Not only that but God is love so I find it hard to believe we were ever in any real danger at any time.

Originally snake bite anti-venom was made by injecting a horse with venom,the horse had enough mass and strength to live and fight off the venom by creating an anti-venom in it's blood.
It's possible that the man was divided up into a large enough mass of cells to create the anti-venom that would answer that old wavering cyclical tree of understanding called the knowledge of good and evil.



I think we have to answer the "not good that the man should be alone" issue to get a better picture.
It is the first "not good" or missing the mark event in scripture.



I agree,its helpful but not critical but I'm a miner for the heart of God and I have sunk a lot of shafts in the garden.

Interesting speculation TCH and I like your final comment. Thanks for your input!!

 

[NetChaplain]

IDK if im the only one hat see it but it seems like God only told Adam not to touch of the tree. That is why He called only Adam after the fall and asked the questions to Adam. Then He told Eve to that Adam was to rule over her. Why?

I truly believe that Eve was not in her correct place, so to speak. If she was where Adam was I believe this wouldnt have happened.

Hi BGSDA - You make some good points and thanks for your reply! For myself, I like to see it that everything that happened was suppose to happen because because God couldn't say concerning anything, "That was not suppose to happen", because of the fact that He has foreknowledge of everything.

 

[jason h]

Scripture does lead me to believe God not just knew it would happen, but, in my opinon, controlled it as it has been said. He set the initial conditions and the players did what they desired to do based on the situation that came to them. Adam, eve and the serpent.

What i like about the garden and find most interesting is this. I always heard people say growing up, and i've said too, that we cant be near God because of our sinfullness. I find it staggering later on in life that not only did God walk with them in the cool of the day, but still aproached them even after obviously knowing what they had done. He even provided the 1st sacrifice by making them coverings from another animal in place of their 'own' coverins they were trying to hide behind. Seems to me that man wont aproach God because he has sinned. He's fine with hiding in the weeds with his own covering.

Kinda like a person coming to the word of God and when they become fearfull of what they hear, just as adam and eve did, they hide from His voice by either not reading anymore(hiding in the weeds) or trying to find justification for themself(their own covering). I find I still do this at times. Seems the problem is once man knows he's a sinner(eats the fruit/sees he has no righteousness, he's the one that has problems being in the presence of God. Just my thought on that though.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Seems to me that man wont aproach God because he has sinned. He's fine with hiding in the weeds with his own covering.

Yes,he has built himself a little civilization at the bottom of the mountain and is selling souvenirs commemorating the time one went up to the burning bush.
They even have a mountain tour that winds half way up and stops at a scenic outlook.
The guide there at the rest station will tell you: "when darkness falls if you look up you can see a glow from the world famous (patent pending) burning bush".

Israel refused to meet with God the wilderness and sent Moses back up.
God gave them back a stern answer written in stone because of the hardness of their hearts.

So God sent his word again in walking,talking flesh,in the form of a Shepard who would become a lamb.

Long story short,the dogs (Gentiles) got fed lamb chops from the Maters table.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello NetChaplain,
Interesting concept you've brought up here. I can only add more questions to what you've written.

If evil was part of their nature as you imply since it was not introduced from an outside source, does this mean that they weren't made imperfect (Evil already pre-existing in them.), and if this is so, then does this mean they could not have fallen, but were fallen already?

Which then begs the question: Is it possible that Adam & Eve could both still be saved in spite of their disobedience?
I won't even bring up the question of God's creation being made less than perfect on purpose by Him

YBIC
C4E
Psalm 73:22-24 So foolish [was] I, and ignorant: I was [as] a beast before thee. Nevertheless I [am] continually with thee: thou hast holden [me] by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me [to] glory.

 

[NetChaplain]

If evil was part of their nature as you imply since it was not introduced from an outside source, does this mean that they weren't made imperfect (Evil already pre-existing in them.), and if this is so, then does this mean they could not have fallen, but were fallen already?

Since I believe that what they did was foreknown by God, even when He was instructing them, He also pre-planned to use it. I'm still speculating the chronology of the presence of the sin nature with them but regardless of when it existed, the main point is that He knew it would occur. I'm also speculating that with God it may not be considered as a fall. Scripture only shows Satan falling.

I also think that since this concept I started is not essential enough to be considered useful, I'm slowly trying to close replies to it because I do not thing it should be continued to be discussed due to possible disruption to others concerning its concept.

I believe this may also be noteworthy: "The tree of knowledge of good and evil; so called, either with respect to God, who by it tried man, when He had made him, whether he would be good or evil; but this He foreknew: rather therefore with respect to man, not that the eating the fruit of it could really give him such knowledge, nor did he need it; for by the law of nature inscribed on his heart, he knew the difference between good and evil, and that what God commanded was good, and what He forbid was evil".
- J Gill

 

[Christ4Ever]

I will respect your wishes to end this thread and so will end any of my responses here.
CU on another thread :thumbs_up
God Bless Brother.

 

[B-A-C]

Where does sin come from? Us or satan? I'm not sure in the grand scheme of things it really matters that much. Either way we all sin.
We don't know how long Adam and Eve where in the garden, it could have been thousands or millions of years for all we know until they finally ate the fruit.
It could have been the first few days. We really don't know. As for it being the original sin, I would say satan's fall was the original sin.
Satan is called the tempter, but he doesn't have the power to make us sin. It's true, when we sin, it's our own choice to do so.

 

[NetChaplain]

I will respect your wishes to end this thread and so will end any of my responses here.
CU on another thread :thumbs_up
God Bless Brother.

Thanks and chat you latter!

 

[NetChaplain]

Where does sin come from? Us or satan? I'm not sure in the grand scheme of things it really matters that much. Either way we all sin.

Satan is called the tempter, but he doesn't have the power to make us sin. It's true, when we sin, it's our own choice to do so.

Hi BAC and God's blessings to your Family! I too am not concerned when sin entered as much as I am concerning the fact that He had foreknowledge of it from eternity past! I agree with you that sin is always a choice of an individual and I believe it's always from within self (Jam 1:14).

 

[brakelite]

Were not Adam and Eve made in the image of God? This cannot be in a physical sense, nor in the sense of power. In the image of God can only mean in character. Theye were created as holy righteous beings with God's law of love already in their hearts, yet they also had the freedom to choose to disobey God. As has been said, the tree was a test. An easy test really. Just one tree in the midst of a forest of trees. Just one that they were forbidden to eat of. There was nothing inherently evil in the tree...it was a question of whether they were willing to accept God's authority.
The temptation came in a form presented to many today, and what first appeared within Lucifer in the beginning. A desire to be like God without surrendering to the authority of God. Lucifer rebelled in heaven ...rebelled against God's laws in order to set up a rival administration...he desired to be "like the Most High" but at the same time in active disobedience to His laws. Eve was presented with the same offer. "To be like one of us knowing good and evil" yet to do so she had to disobey. Today, the same offer is being made to God's people. "You can be born again into the image of Christ and never be bothered by the laws of Christ". Similar to what is being discussed on another thread...a form of godliness without the power.
It ought never be said that God intended for man to sin, or was created in such a fashion that sin was inevitable. That God foresaw the crisis and had already made the decision to send His Son to meet the crisis, does not mitigate against the free choice that Adam made to venture beyond the boundary lines of God's ruling authority.