The Christian response to persecution

[ushalk]

look you all there has not been a follower of jesus in the bible that has not been persecuted in one way or another. if jesus went through it and all the deciples have been through it who are we that we are free from this world to do the same evil and wicked things to us? people say oh it is only for the israellites. well if this is true why is it happening in egypt, china, thialand, india, indonesiaand yes even right here in the usa?

they have past laws that we cant pray in the name of jesus in public and now they have passed a law stating that we cant speak against homosexuality in churches or in the open. this is all a part of persecution ladies and gents. they are trying to keep the lord and the truth out of the way of the things that the world wants to make them feel good.

3 years ago in new jersey a christian man and his wife were put to death by some muslims. 2 years ago a group of christians got arrested for speaking verses in public concerning homosexualityand 1 year before that there were 4 christian men arrested for disturbing the peace in the middle of the day because they were singing hymns to the lord walking down the street.

now with all this going on how can any of us believe or state that we are not going to see the persecution of the church? take a look around and look through places such as the voice of the martyrs. and many other organizations that report such things.

 

[baruch]

If an angry mob was outside your church on a sunday morning, would you go in, or flee?
If the laws in your country say,"You can't meet with fellow believers to pray, and study the bible" Will you?
If you can't get a job and support your family because you believe in Jesus, will you give up your faith?
If you are arrested and put in prison and tortured. Would you rather die than give up your faith in Jesus?

Our siblings in Christ Jesus in many countries in the world today face these choices every day of their lives.

Pray for the persecuted Church, they're probably praying for you!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Fleeing persecution isn't necessarily a bad thing.There is such a thing as what military strategists call "a strategic retreat". God used this tactic in the early days of the Jerusalem church following the stoning of Stephen:

"On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem and all except the apostles were scattered. Those who had been scattered preached the word everywhere they went. Philip went down to a city of Samaria and proclaimed Christ there. When the crowd heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed. So there was great joy in that city" (Acts 8:1,4-8).

Strategic retreat produced victory and many demons became unemployed.

SLE

 

[ushalk]

i dont believe that anyone is saying that there is anything wrong with fleeing persecution. but there seems to be this great thought that christians are not or will not or have not faced persecution. this is where i draw my argument. this teaching that because we have accepted christ we are going to live without any troubles and all things will be peaceful in our lives. but that is never stated in the word of God anywhere at all.

but on the same token sle there are many places where you cant flee persecution. it is in every city and in every town. everywhere you turn. it is very easy for us as americans to sit back and say this or that because we are not faced with much if any persecution. but we are not thinking about what is going on in many other countries around the world. we dont stop to see it because we are so busy with all of this life and garbage that we have in our sight here.

i do not believe that i would give up my faith as a christian for any of that. i hope that i wouldnt. but even in america today it is hard to get a job in many places if you are a christian because bosses want you to be all about bussiness and does not want to work around your christian activities.

 

[jonett]

persecution today

Hi everyone. I am reading this thread with much interest today as I have been confusion with the world I live in today. My quandry is there is so much sin and sexxual inuendo all around us, but I have personally convinced that the commercials about viagra adn herpes and so on are repulsive. and on during the time of family viewing. Yet I do nothing to stop it. I am not going to quote scriptures as you all are well \versed in the bible. The question is Am I brave enough to come against this in some small or with Gods help large way. If I do then will I be mocked and made fun of, which is in its small way persecution. I am praying and asking God what I could do
Thanks for your ears and feel free to pray for me if you wish
jonett

 

[ushalk]

jonett, in the world today if it is biblically wrong and you confront it there could be yes some serious trouble coming your way. but what is more important to you. that you did speak out against and do what the lord would have or is what people think of you more important?

this is a choice for you to make. i agree they are impulsive and very much on tv today everything is sexually suggestive or violently suggestive.

 

[jonett]

persecution today

Thank you I agree and I think thats why I am in such turmoil. I know I am going to learn much coming here
God Bless
Jonett

 

[ushalk]

well i hope that you do jonett. we can all learn one from another. that is whay the lord has given us each other.

 

[Christy74]

Throughout Acts, we see Paul fleeing from persecution from one city or another. However, we also see Paul go to Jerusalem with the promise of imprisonment. He was advised by all his friends not to go to Jerusalem, but the Spirit was leading him there (See Acts 21).

I believe that y'all are right in that we need to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading. Most of the time, I think we'd be prompted to flee, but there will be times when we'll need to persevere through the persecution instead of flee from it.

 

[christserf]

baruch:

When did Jesus commission the church to go to the cities of Israel?
I believe Jesus is speaking only to His disciples here.

I answered this issue in my post on 8-07-07. Here is point #3 of that thread:

3) Jesus told His disciples in Mt. 28:19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen". The command to flee was given to the disciples, and hence should be observed by us unless there is an overturning of that command by Jesus Himself.

When I used the word "Cowards" I was generalising, not being personnal!
If I've caused you hurt, then I humbly apologise, and beg your pardon.

I accept your apology, but who are you referring to when you say that you're "generalising"?

As to persecution from the world, It's spreading very quickly in most of the Asian countries. It will soon happen in Europe and the UK, where I live.

Yes, I know, that's why I'm bringing up this subject. I'm just not so sure that a point will come that every single non-Christian on the planet will persecute us.

If an angry mob was outside your church on a sunday morning, would you go in, or flee?

Flee, unless I was moved otherwise.

If the laws in your country say,"You can't meet with fellow believers to pray, and study the bible" Will you?

Yes, I will still meet and study with them, though we may do it in secret.

If you can't get a job and support your family because you believe in Jesus, will you give up your faith?

No, I would trust my Heavenly Father for my daily bread, whether He gives it to me by the hand of a stranger, or whether He directs me to scavenge from a dumpster, or whether He directs me to forage in the wilderness.

If you are arrested and put in prison and tortured. Would you rather die than give up your faith in Jesus?

Yes, I would rather die than give up my faith in Jesus; but I would rather escape than die.

ushalk:

look you all there has not been a follower of jesus in the bible that has not been persecuted in one way or another. if jesus went through it and all the deciples have been through it who are we that we are free from this world to do the same evil and wicked things to us?

I'm not saying that we are to be free from persecution; I'm not even saying that in every case we should flee before persecution comes. I'm saying that, as per Mat. 10:23, when "they" persecute you in one city, you should flee to another. (Note that there is no strict definition for "they").

but on the same token sle there are many places where you cant flee persecution. it is in every city and in every town. everywhere you turn.

I would admit that Mat. 10:23 allows for one to go to one town until they persecute you, then go to another until they persecute you, and continue on this way.

but even in america today it is hard to get a job in many places if you are a christian because bosses want you to be all about bussiness and does not want to work around your christian activities.

Indeed so, wouldn't it be better for all of the local Christians to get together and do business with each other so that they don't have to worry about being asked to do sinful things?

Christy74:

Throughout Acts, we see Paul fleeing from persecution from one city or another. However, we also see Paul go to Jerusalem with the promise of imprisonment. He was advised by all his friends not to go to Jerusalem, but the Spirit was leading him there (See Acts 21).

When did the Spirit lead him to Jerusalem?

Most of the time, I think we'd be prompted to flee, but there will be times when we'll need to persevere through the persecution instead of flee from it.

Agreed.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[Christy74]

"And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me." Acts 20:22-23 (NKJV)

I may be mistaken, but it seemed to me that God was sending Him to Jerusalem.

 

[ushalk]

yes i believe the lord was. now i am not sure where paul was or when he wrote the letter to timothy, but he told timothy that his time has come and he had kept the faith so whereever he was he knew. i wonder if it was before or after he went to jeruselum? hmm does anyone know this from scripture and not theology school?

 

[baruch]

Matthew 10
1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

11And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

12And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


Christserf, studying Matthew ch 10 again. I still believe, Jesus is commissioning the 12 disciples here.
Take v5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: and look at v6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And v 23 makes sense.
Your quote from Matt 28;19-20, is a different commission.It speaks of going to all nations, baptising in The Name of The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit. These are not mentioned in ch10!

Pray for our persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, and, pray for their persecutors also, that they may see Jesus in the witness of those they persecute.

"No one lights a lamp and puts it under a bowl" Matt5:15
Let your light shine. "Shine Jesus, shine with shekinah glory!"

 

[christserf]

Christ74:

Here is the passage that gives me second thoughts on this subject:

Acts 21:5 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem. And when we had accomplished those days, we departed and went our way; and they all brought us on our way, with wives and children, till [we were] out of the city: and we kneeled down on the shore, and prayed.

I see three options right away: 1) the Spirit did tell Paul to go to Jerusalem, and those disciples were wrong, 2) the Spirit did tell those disciples that he should not go up to Jerusalem, and Paul was wrong, or 3) when Paul said that he was "bound in the spirit to Jerusalem", he did not mean "the Holy Spirit has told me to go to Jerusalem. At this point, I'm not sure which one of those is correct, but I'm leaning towards #2.

baruch:

I studied Mt 10 again. The fact that Mt. 10 and Mt. 28 are different commissions is a Red Herring. The real issue is that the Mt. 28 command to "observe all things" is real, and really means "all things". One of those things is the command to flee in Mt. 10:23. Please go over that post of mine where I numbered three points, I have yet to recieve an answer to all points. I am praying that we can come to an understanding on this and speak the truth in love.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[baruch]

Christserf, I did answer with Matthew ch5:15; "No one lights a lamp and puts it under a bowl"

I feel we'll never agree on Matt 10, so lets leave it at that.

I believe we will be given help when persecution comes.
Isaiah 43
1But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

2When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

 

[christserf]

baruch:

Christserf, I did answer with Matthew ch5:15; "No one lights a lamp and puts it under a bowl"

The subject of that verse is different from the subject of Mt. 10:23. Hence, you did not "answer" me, this is just another Red Herring.

I feel we'll never agree on Matt 10, so lets leave it at that.

Brothers in Christ don't do that to each other.

1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

We don't agree on Matthew 10 because you refuse to take these scriptures that I have shown you literally. Why have you done this?

Brother, please, it took me a good long while to sort out these issues and write up that three-point list. Would you please just take the time to read it over and respond to each issue?

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[baruch]

24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew ch 16:24-28

Dear Christsef, look at v25 here; If you flee, are you not trying to save your life?

Now look at v28 and compare with Matt 10:23.
The disciples did see the resurrected Lord Jesus, whether they saw Him coming in His kingdom, it's not clearly recorded.

On a more lighthearted note, I don't believe the bible is a detective novel, full of red herrings. The occassional red heifer, yes. But no red herrings. Unless, they were in the Sea Of Galilee! lol!

Yours in Jesus, Baruch

 

[andrea]

Advance

My initiation to physical persecution happened in the small island of Batuan, Bohol when a respected elementary school principal got furious about the bad rumors that spread against her younger sister who was slandered for her new found faith. She blamed me for it among other things.

As I was passing down the road, she attacked and hit me with her fists. I responded by shouting praises and thanksgiving to God. She got mad all the more and hit me again and again, cursing and accusing me like a common criminal. Heat enveloped my whole being as I gave my face to the smiter. I felt the blows but not the pain; and my heart rejoiced to know that finally, I was counted worthy to share in Christ's suffering. She got exhausted and sat by the road side panting. I waited for more but she could no longer gather strength to stand. I went away rejoicing.

I believe that when persecution comes, the Lord always provides a way of escape so that we can go on doing His work with gladness of heart. He may tell us to flee or give us the grace to bear under it. All we need to do is follow His leading. But we don't flee out of fear, we flee so we can advance His kingdom forcefully. I wrote a poem entitled Advance:

Are you one of those wanting to flee,
The pangs of terrible persecution?
In entering His rest, that's the key;
'Rapture' is not our commission.

When we advance God's kingdom forcefully;
The devil gets mad and trembles to see,
All nations bow to the Rock of Salvation;
He'll stir big trouble for that generation.

Who's afraid of the great tribulation day?
All who live godly have troubles anyway.
The multitude will rise to proclaim;
For us to live is Christ, to die is gain.

_______
Philippians 1:20-2l I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Book: Bosom, Title: Advance
andrea

 

[andrea]

Advance

My initiation to physical persecution happened in the small island of Batuan, Bohol when a respected elementary school principal got furious about the bad rumors that spread against her younger sister who was slandered for her new found faith. She blamed me for it among other things.

As I was passing down the road, she attacked and hit me with her fists. I responded by shouting praises and thanksgiving to God. She got mad all the more and hit me again and again, cursing and accusing me like a common criminal. Heat enveloped my whole being as I gave my face to the smiter. I felt the blows but not the pain; and my heart rejoiced to know that finally, I was counted worthy to share in Christ's suffering. She got exhausted and sat by the road side panting. I waited for more but she could no longer gather strength to stand. I went away rejoicing.

I believe that when persecution comes, the Lord always provides a way of escape so that we can go on doing His work with gladness of heart. He may tell us to flee or give us the grace to bear under it. All we need to do is follow His leading. But we don't flee out of fear, we flee so we can advance His kingdom forcefully. I wrote a poem entitled Advance:

Are you one of those wanting to flee,
The pangs of terrible persecution?
In entering His rest, that's the key;
'Rapture' is not our commission.

When we advance God's kingdom forcefully;
The devil gets mad and trembles to see,
All nations bow to the Rock of Salvation;
He'll stir big trouble for that generation.

Who's afraid of the great tribulation day?
All who live godly have troubles anyway.
The multitude will rise to proclaim;
For us to live is Christ, to die is gain.

_______
Philippians 1:20-2l I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Book: Bosom, Title: Advance
andrea

 

[christserf]

baruch:

25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Dear Christsef, look at v25 here; If you flee, are you not trying to save your life?

If saving my life was my reason for fleeing, then yes, I would be trying to save my life. However, my motivation for fleeing would be to obey the command of Jesus Christ. Hence, I'm not trying to save my life, I'm trying to obey Jesus. Hence, this passage does not teach that I would lose my life, and it does not address the issue of whether or not we should flee as we were told to.

Now look at v28 and compare with Matt 10:23.
The disciples did see the resurrected Lord Jesus, whether they saw Him coming in His kingdom, it's not clearly recorded.

The clause "for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come", if taken literally and without adding meaning, does not tell the disciples that the command to flee is limited, it merely tells them that they won't have gone over Israel until "the Son of man be come". Hence, even if they did see the Son of man be come", that still doesn't limit the command.

On a more lighthearted note, I don't believe the bible is a detective novel, full of red herrings.

You're misrepresenting what I'm saying. Of course the Bible doesn't have meaningless portions that throw you off a line of thought. What I'm saying is that you are bringing in passages of Scripture that don't speak about the subject of fleeing and you're saying that they do speak about the subject of fleeing. I know that your position seems to make sense to you, but it only seems that way, it isn't actually that way. Do a word study on the English if you have to; there is no word or phrase in Mt. 10:23 that limits the command to flee. There is no word or phrase that generally limits the commands of the commission to preach to Israel.

Andrea:

I hope to have more time soon to write to you again. I am very happy that you were able to endure the persecution and shine your light. Pray about where Yahweh wants you.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's serf