The Christian response to persecution

[christserf]

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

When governments or large parts of the population of a country or city rise up and persecute Christians, the Christians should leave if they haven't left already. If you disagree, please tell me why.

As for what constitutes "persecution", there are many examples in the book of Acts: Acts 13:50, 14:6, 14:20, 16:40, 17:10. The common theme in all of these examples is that when they try to imprison, expell, or kill disciples, those disciples go. There is one exception in Acts 18:9-18, but this time Jesus told Paul that he should speak, and that no one would hurt him.

There is also the proverb, Pro 22:3 A prudent [man] foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished. I think that it's often a good idea to start making plans to go when it looks like persecution is on the horizon. Whether it be Communist, Muslim, or Buddhist, governments around the world persecute Christians. I understand the "light in a dark place" idea, but the command of Jesus Christ and the example of the early church is to go away when you're being persecuted.

But as for being a light in a dark place, how far should we go? How much persecution should we risk? Paul says to Timothy:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

So obviously, we should expect some amount of persecution, it could even be just in saying that we should stay in a place until we are persecuted (let the Holy Spirit guide you). The same applies to going somewhere where there's persecution: we can go there, and we should leave when we get persecuted.

If you disagree, please give me Scriptural reasons why. If you agree, let's start talking about how we can reach Christians facing persecution and help them to get out of there, even if we have to start by showing them that they should get out of there.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[Faithful Son]

John 8:59 NKJV
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Matthew 12:14-15
14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.
15 But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.

As we can read in those scriptures, even Lord Jesus Himself thought it best to hide at times. I have also mentioned this before on the forum.

In my own life, I come under circumstances where my brother uses alcohol and sometimes he becomes very loud and disruptive. I have no choice but to seclude myself from him. I stay out of his way and try my best to avoid conversation with him.

I believe that God agrees with me on this issue. I am praying to find a new home, but only God is able to open doors for me. He has however blessed me with peace the last month, where the violent behaviour and loudness was quite less than before.

God bless you brother
Faithful Son

 

[LikeJesus]

John 16:2
Mathew 5:11-12
John 15:18-18
God Bless

 

[ushalk]

i agree and i disagree with this. i know what jesus stated there. but i also know that in acts 7 the story of stephen. the lord appeared to steven when stephen looked up to the sky. and steven spoke the truth to the people because he wanted them to be saved and knew that the lord was ruler over all no matter what they did.

 

[Jeffin]

I believe you can move to another city if the Holyspirit has not asked you to stay. But if God asks you to stay, then you need to stay there. So it depends on how you are guided. There are some people who are ready to die for Jesus whatever the situation is. Frankly, I get terrified thinking of it but who knows I might end up giving my life for God.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

What this whole discussion boils down to is: discerning the will of God for the person involved and then obeying Him. When God gives us a task to accomplish, He will give us the power needed to accomplish it. Even Jesus needed an infusion of this power when, in the Garden of Gethsemani, he begged the Father to give him a way out before finally surrendering his will (See Mt 26:42, Mk 14:36, Lk 22:42).

So, it seems that for those who do not or cannot flee persecution, the task is to keep on working where they are until the end.


SLE

"So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." (Isa 41:10)

 

[ushalk]

that is exactly where it stands sle. if we are moved to move then we should move but if we are moved to stay then we shall stay. excellent post brother.

 

[Ronda]

Mark 4:17
And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

It is easier (in the above verse) to take the path of least resistance but;

Romans 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

We are to stand firm unless you feel called by God to do elsewise. The bible clearly teaches that we may lose our life for His sake but not His love.

 

[christserf]

Hello everyone:

First off, many people have said that we should let the Holy Spirit tell us whether or not to flee. However, Jesus already gave us one order about when to flee, and that order is found in the verse that I quoted in the beginning of my opening post. Here it is again:

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Unless you have a specific word from Yahweh telling you to stay in a city in the face of persecution, then by not fleeing you are disobeying this command of Jesus.

This does not mean that the fleeing person is a coward, or disobediant; it is obediant to flee in this situation. Of course, we should never hide our faith, or deny our faith; that's not what I'm suggesting.

Faithful Son:

Yes, I would agree that in the situation you described it would be best to move on. Now, suppose that you were being persecuted by the general public of the city that you live in (if you live in a city). If that happened, would you leave the city?

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[Faithful Son]

Faithful Son:

Yes, I would agree that in the situation you described it would be best to move on. Now, suppose that you were being persecuted by the general public of the city that you live in (if you live in a city). If that happened, would you leave the city?

If I believe in the Bible and believe in Jesus as well, I agree with one of your statements, it would be wrong for me to disobey God, so my answer is yes.

God bless

 

[ushalk]

i would only leave the city if the holy spirit moved me to.

2 TIMOTHY 1:7- FOR GOD DID NOT GIVE US A SPIRIT OF FEAR BUT A SPIRIT OF POWER AND OF LOVE AND SELFCONTROL.

there was nothing that kept the apostles from preaching the word of God. not even death. ladies and gentlemen it is very important that we do not allow the fear of what man might do to us for the gospel stand in the way of the people that the lord has us there to minister to. this is our job as followers and lovers of christ our lord that we preach the gospel to the unsaved under all circumstances.

 

[christserf]

Ushalk:

Respectfully, you appear to be missing the point. The point is that Jesus told us to leave a city when they persecute us. Of course we shouldn't be afraid, I've never said otherwise. I'm just saying that we should obey Jesus when he says:

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

What you're saying goes against what Jesus said in this verse. Please adress this verse.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[SpiritLedEd]

It is impossible to not feel fear during times of persecution. I believe that when the Bible says to "fear not", it means "do not give in to fear."

SLE

 

[ushalk]

you are right sle and i agree with you totally.

yes jesus stated that, but what i am saying is just as the apostle stephen was moved to keep speaking we may be aswell. there is a purpose for this.

 

[baruch]

Persecutions Are Coming

16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub,[d] how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
Jesus Teaches the Fear of God

27 “Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Who is Jesus talking to here? Answer; The twelve disciples!
Jesus is commissioning them to go only to the towns of Israel.
I think you're taking v23 out of it's context.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I think that in the apostles' day, any decision to flee would have come after much prayer and petitioning for discernment. Also, I believe that verse 23 is very much for today since Israel has not yet been saved (see Ro 11:25-26) and the Son of Man has not yet returned.


SLE

SLE

 

[christserf]

SLE:

I believe that when the Bible says to "fear not", it means "do not give in to fear."

I'm not so sure about that, but that's a different topic.

I think that in the apostles' day, any decision to flee would have come after much prayer and petitioning for discernment.

Probably so. One thing about verse 23 which is uncertain is what "they" consists of. Should we flee if we're being persecuted by a small minority, or should we wait until we're persecuted by local authorities, or should we wait until the general population is persecuting us? This decision should come after prayer and discernment, but do keep in mind that verse 23 is a command, not a suggestion. We should caution people away from using "prayer and discernment" as a way of putting off obeying a command, or even eventually ignoring the command completely.

ushalk:

yes jesus stated that, but what i am saying is just as the apostle stephen was moved to keep speaking we may be aswell.

I agree that when we are in the process of being persecuted we should still give a faithful witness, but I am concerned that you have the appearance of trying to create a way around the command by substituting our own feelings.

I agree with you when you say "i would only leave the city if the holy spirit moved me to". However, if we are in submission to the Holy Spirit then He would usually move us to obey the commands that Jesus gave us. Do you agree with this?

Hence, the Holy Spirit would normally move us to flee a city when they persecute us. Do you agree with this? If the Holy Spirit isn't moving us to flee a city when they are persecuting us, it may be that we are not in submission to the Holy Spirit and that He isn't trying to move us. Do you agree with this?

Furthermore, since the Holy Spirit would normally move us to follow the commands of Jesus, wouldn't it be logical to say that we probably aren't in submission to the Holy Spirit if we don't feel Him moving us to flee a city where they are persecuting us?

Baruch:

Who is Jesus talking to here? Answer; The twelve disciples!
Jesus is commissioning them to go only to the towns of Israel.
I think you're taking v23 out of it's context.

The following is a multi-point response. I would prefer you to respond to each point, using the same number-letter system.

1) This command: Mt. 10:5-6 "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.", is a different command than this command: Mt. 10:23 "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." Do you understand and agree that these are different commands?

2) There is no recorded command from Jesus which puts a time limit on this command to flee.

2A) The command to go to the Jews does not contain any clause which states that the other commands that Jesus is about to give are limited.

2B) The clause "for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come", if taken literally and without adding meaning, does not tell the disciples that the command to flee is limited, it merely tells them that they won't be done with Israel until "the Son of man be come".

Do you understand and agree with these points?

3) Jesus told His disciples in Mt. 28:19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen". The command to flee was given to the disciples, and hence should be observed by us unless there is an overturning of that command by Jesus Himself. For example:

3A) Jesus said in Matthew 10:9-10: Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Jesus said in Luke 22:35-36 When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Jesus' command to not provide purse, etc., was overturned and replaced by Jesus Himself, and we are not required to not provide purse, etc. (i.e., we may provide purse, etc.) Do you understand and agree with this?

3B) There is no record of Jesus overturning the command to flee. Agreed?

3C) The command to "observe all things" does not contain a clause stating that the commands given to the disciples during the commission to preach to Israel are overturned.

In summary, Jesus told us to observe everything that He told His disciples, one of those commands is to flee a city when they persecute you, and since there is nothing that limits that, we should follow that command.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[baruch]

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

When persecution comes from the whole world, where will we flee to?

Revelation 21:7-8 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

For "fearful" another translation is "cowards"
If we flee from persecution, what use are we to Jesus?
Did Paul flee, or any other of the Apostles when persecution came against them?
Go and read the Acts of the Apostles!

 

[christserf]

baruch:

I am concerned that you have chosen not to respond to my reply. I gave a quite clear explanation to your claim that I am taking things out of context. Rather than letting me know whether or not you still think that I'm taking things out of context, you changed the subject and appear to have accused me of cowardice. Do you really think that this is the just thing to do?

I would sincerely like an answer to this, and a response to the subject that I wrote to you. In the meantime, I will reply to your last post.

When persecution comes from the whole world, where will we flee to?

I have not seen evidence that persecution will come from the whole world, all at once, in such a manner that all worldly people would persecute us. Hence, your question is currently moot. John 16:33 does not describe this scenario.

For "fearful" another translation is "cowards"

You don't have to be afraid to flee persecution. Of course we shouldn't be afraid, as I have said to others on this thread. Sometimes, like if you're fleeing to a place where you don't know if you will be able to find food, it can be a very courageous thing to flee.

If we flee from persecution, what use are we to Jesus?

We can minister to people that are interested in hearing the truth, and not interested in persecuting us. Of course, if we come across people along the way that are interested in persecuting us, we can minister to them, too.

Did Paul flee, or any other of the Apostles when persecution came against them?
Go and read the Acts of the Apostles!

Act 14:5 And when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles, and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use [them] despitefully, and to stone them, Act 14:6 They were ware of [it], and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:

Act 14:19 And there came thither [certain] Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew [him] out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Act 14:20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

Act 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. ... Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[baruch]

Christserf, in answer to your first question; Re Matt 10:23.
When did Jesus commission the church to go to the cities of Israel?
I believe Jesus is speaking only to His disciples here.

When I used the word "Cowards" I was generalising, not being personnal!
If I've caused you hurt, then I humbly apologise, and beg your pardon.
As to persecution from the world, It's spreading very quickly in most of the Asian countries. It will soon happen in Europe and the UK, where I live.
Follow some of the links here Barnabas Fund ...hope and aid for the persecuted church To find out how our brothers and sisters in Jesus, are suffering right now.