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The bigger picture?

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What actualy determines our gift of salvation?Is it strictly adhering to one line of thought or doctrine?Is it more complicated than that?Is it perhaps more simple than that?

Heres an example:

A young catholic preist dedicates his life to the service of God.He is given a missionary assignment to a heathen land where the name of Christ has never been heard.He spends his life educating these people on the word and the power of Jesus ransome sacrafice.He dies an old man feeling he has led a godly life,contented with the work he has done and awaits Gods blessings.
-Now-
Would you be prepared to say this man is going to hell because of many of the false catholic doctrines he has spread?
To be honest this is something i have been really struggling with.We have all sorts of people come to tj,some who are phonies just wishing to poke fun,whilst others are honest christians with a different approach on many subjects.On a personal level i have lots of issues with the catholic faith but would by no means condemn a man who has given his life to God however misguided his belief system may be.Perhaps the example of a catholic is a bit extreme,why dont we talk about something closer to home.
Some born again christians believe the wine mentioned in Jesus wedding miracle was grape juice and the bible prohibits the drinking of alcohol altogether.Others believe the drinking of alcohol in moderation is permitted.Whos right?Does it really matter?The list goes on.We could talk about speaking in tongues,the differing veiws on the rapture,keeping the sabbath,attending a church,being slain in the spirit etc.Many God-loving,long-standing,faithful christians could give you their veiws backed by scripture but still come out with different answers.Again,who is right?Again,does it really matter?
We would all agree that there are fundamental truths in the bible,some things are written down in black and white with no room for interpretation.There are basic principles that run the length of the bible that if you stick to you cant go far wrong.We have to watch that we dont get so caught up in detail and doctine we lose sight of the bigger picture.The tatto thread for example went on for ages with no real conclusion.
While i meditated and prayed about this post at work today my mind was drawn to the sinner who died alongside Jesus.The man expressed a faith in Jesus (Luke 23)and he in turn promised him a place in his kingdom.This man was at the end of his life,he had never been embroiled in any type of doctrine but through that one act of faith was saved.How wonderful but yet how simple!
I just think this is a great way of looking at the common bond that christians who recognise Christ as their saviour have in common.How awful would it be to lose a brother in Christ over some minor point of doctrine when all along you had that joint gift in common.There will be a day of reckoning and if any have got it seriously wrong then they will be judged accountable by the only one who is worthy to know all the right answers-God!Until that time isnt it better for us to proceed in agreement as opposed to disagreement?
 
Member
Sparky there is a differnce in not aggreeing and plain old lies.

Ok here is an example ..... A person is rasied believing that there is nothing wrong with how about multiple marriages! Yet they are claiming Jesus as their Lord and Savior should then we fellowship with them and call them brothers in Christ. The bible actually tells us that we are to not talk to false teachers.

See Jim Jones started off claiming to be a Chriatian. Same with David Koresh. Just because someone claims to be a brother or a sister does not make it so. the bible warns of this.

The world is falling fast and there are many who decieve as painfull as that may be. 'i can not tell who is saved or not but I can tell you that I will walk away from the "babble" that alot of people claiming to be my brother or sister.

Do not worry about if ones feelings get hurt for if they are walking with Jesus He will wipe the pain away . Also there will be conformation as to if they should be here or not.

Plus this is not "our" site and if Chad chooses to ban someone we need to submitt to his authority. That is part of being a body of Christ.

God Bless!
 
Member
Good points Jesuslovesu.Im just trying to explain(in my fuddled way)that some issues never seem to get resolved with a satisfactory answer.The ten commandments are a bench mark for all christians today as to are many of the principles that you can find in the mosaic law(although we are no longer bound by it).There should never be any disagreement about the application of these in our lives.When two faithful christians meet an impasse sometimes it is just better to move on knowing you share the same love of Christ.Jesus said we could identify his followers by their fruits.This is a more of a standard of truth than wordy discussions that go on and on.When i write a post i primarily do so for myself.I seek knowlege and enlightenment from the feedback of others.If anything tj has taught me to be more tolerant.There is people here who i have deep affection for,not because of what they believe(which i dont always concur with)but because of the way they expend their time in service to the Lord and in their treatment of others.My heart is more receptive to someone who has shown an act of unselfish kindness than to someone who can debate a point based on its hebrew or Greek translation.Sorry,its just the way i feel?
 
Member
Sparky,
In response to your thread, I myself have struggled with the Catholic religion. I was never Catholic, but many friends have been, and are saved but still struggle with some of the false teachings they can not let go.

Some parts of my family are penecostal, others Church of Christ, some are Methodist and we are Bible Church goers. It is common to have the debates you mentioned,

We could talk about speaking in tongues,the differing veiws on the rapture,keeping the sabbath,attending a church,being slain in the spirit etc.Many God-loving,long-standing,faithful christians could give you their veiws backed by scripture but still come out with different answers.Again,who is right?Again,does it really matter?

Our families largest debates are on; instant healing, speaking in tongues, babtism before salvation, rapture, and keeping the sabbath. (One family member goes to church on saturday, and some debate this)

But all this aside, we love one another. This was the greatest commandment. And as my mom always says, these things do not determine if you are saved. Salvation is through grace, which is a free gift from God, it is not contingent on your precise viewpoint on every point of the Bible.

I believe Sparky is right in saying some things can be interpreted differently, and always will be. But I think it is different than breaking the commandments-like murder, adultrey, those things can be interpreted only one way.

We can get in heated debates about different things, and just b/c one person believes differently, they are not smarter, wiser, farther along in their walk. How do you think different donominations came about? Disagreements on doctrine, of course. We should strive to grow in our relationships with Christ and then with one another, but TJ is a world wide church. Sometimes we should agree to disagree. I love all my brothers and sisters, even if our views differ. Most at talk Jesus are here for one reason-They love and live for Jesus. That's enough for me!
 
Member
girlforgod said:
Sparky,
In response to your thread, I myself have struggled with the Catholic religion. I was never Catholic, but many friends have been, and are saved but still struggle with some of the false teachings they can not let go.

Some parts of my family are penecostal, others Church of Christ, some are Methodist and we are Bible Church goers. It is common to have the debates you mentioned,

We could talk about speaking in tongues,the differing veiws on the rapture,keeping the sabbath,attending a church,being slain in the spirit etc.Many God-loving,long-standing,faithful christians could give you their veiws backed by scripture but still come out with different answers.Again,who is right?Again,does it really matter?

Our families largest debates are on; instant healing, speaking in tongues, babtism before salvation, rapture, and keeping the sabbath. (One family member goes to church on saturday, and some debate this)

But all this aside, we love one another. This was the greatest commandment. And as my mom always says, these things do not determine if you are saved. Salvation is through grace, which is a free gift from God, it is not contingent on your precise viewpoint on every point of the Bible.

I believe Sparky is right in saying some things can be interpreted differently, and always will be. But I think it is different than breaking the commandments-like murder, adultrey, those things can be interpreted only one way.

We can get in heated debates about different things, and just b/c one person believes differently, they are not smarter, wiser, farther along in their walk. How do you think different donominations came about? Disagreements on doctrine, of course. We should strive to grow in our relationships with Christ and then with one another, but TJ is a world wide church. Sometimes we should agree to disagree. I love all my brothers and sisters, even if our views differ. Most at talk Jesus are here for one reason-They love and live for Jesus. That's enough for me!
Thakyou girlforgod this is the exact point i was trying to get across.In future you can write my posts as you word them better,lol.
 
Member
Manfred Haller wrote this in his book "The mystery of God, Christ all and in all"
"It can come as quite a shock to realize that you have believed in an idea of Christ and not in Christ Himself!"

If you believe something of someone that is not true, how well do you really know that person? We have to believe in Jesus and not just what others say about him. Many people just have a religious experience and not a proper relationship with Christ. There is a difference and the difference is as Heaven and Hell.
 
Member
Sparky I guess I didnt speak clear enough and I am sorry... I actually was agreeing with you to a point with you. I also agree with girlforGod and jiggyfly. If you read most of my past posts that I will not continue to debate. (Unless it is really important) See this will always happen words will be misunderstood or completely off base and some like to argue. I myself would perfer not to argue but I will defend... God Bless
 
Member
sparky said:
What actualy determines our gift of salvation?Is it strictly adhering to one line of thought or doctrine?Is it more complicated than that?Is it perhaps more simple than that?

Heres an example:

A young catholic preist dedicates his life to the service of God.He is given a missionary assignment to a heathen land where the name of Christ has never been heard.He spends his life educating these people on the word and the power of Jesus ransome sacrafice.He dies an old man feeling he has led a godly life,contented with the work he has done and awaits Gods blessings.
-Now-
Would you be prepared to say this man is going to hell because of many of the false catholic doctrines he has spread?
Yes.



To be honest this is something i have been really struggling with.We have all sorts of people come to tj,some who are phonies just wishing to poke fun,whilst others are honest christians with a different approach on many subjects.On a personal level i have lots of issues with the catholic faith but would by no means condemn a man who has given his life to God however misguided his belief system may be.
You say you would not condemn a man. What makes you think it is possible for you to condemn a man? Where in the bible does it say that we have the power to give someone salvation or to give someone condemnation? As far as i know sparky God is the sole decision maker in such things.

When we say "i believe this man is going to the lake of fire" it's not us passing a binding judgement against the man its us giving our thoughts/fears on the matter.



Some born again christians believe the wine mentioned in Jesus wedding miracle was grape juice and the bible prohibits the drinking of alcohol altogether.Others believe the drinking of alcohol in moderation is permitted.Whos right?Does it really matter?The list goes on.We could talk about speaking in tongues,the differing veiws on the rapture,keeping the sabbath,attending a church,being slain in the spirit etc.Many God-loving,long-standing,faithful christians could give you their veiws backed by scripture but still come out with different answers.Again,who is right?Again,does it really matter?
What is central and what is a disputable matter is known by God. If we honestly think that something is central to the faith then we must express our thoughts when we see someone teaching or living in a way country to the central teaching. If you have the attitude of "does it really matter" about a doctrine or a stance then you should express that. We should all express the thoughts we have and let the Spirit convict.



The tatto thread for example went on for ages with no real conclusion.
There where many conclusions. Different conclusions from different people. I think what your saying is that people never reached a conclusion they all agreed with. The point in engaging in a discussion on any subject is not to reach an agreed conclusion. If that where the goal then we would consider nearly every discussion as a failure. No, the reason we give the thoughts we have is to give others the chance to hear them, a chance for the Spirit to convict that person on the truth or otherwise of the position that we give.



While i meditated and prayed about this post at work today my mind was drawn to the sinner who died alongside Jesus.The man expressed a faith in Jesus (Luke 23)and he in turn promised him a place in his kingdom.This man was at the end of his life,he had never been embroiled in any type of doctrine but through that one act of faith was saved.How wonderful but yet how simple!
The criminal on the cross believed in Jesus believed in Him as Lord and believed in His kingdom. The criminal on the cross knew more than most people think. Read:

Luke 23
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

This man knew Jesus was Lord and He knew The Kingdom was His.



I just think this is a great way of looking at the common bond that christians who recognise Christ as their saviour have in common.How awful would it be to lose a brother in Christ over some minor point of doctrine when all along you had that joint gift in common.
If the point is minor then we will not loose our Brother. We will be with them in eternity no matter what thoughts we have on the matter. If the matter is central then we cannot loose that "brother" because that "brother" was never a Brother in the first place.



There will be a day of reckoning and if any have got it seriously wrong then they will be judged accountable by the only one who is worthy to know all the right answers-God!Until that time isnt it better for us to proceed in agreement as opposed to disagreement?
Agree with what you are lead to agree with. Disagree with what you are lead to disagree with. Ask always to be lead by the Holy Spirit on all matters. Witness to all men but be careful whom you fellowship with. Do not call someone a Brother who teaches what you are lead to believe is lies against the Will of God. But love them and do your best to convict them of their error.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Member
Thankyou Adstar you have illustrated my point perfectly!You have gone through my post and singled out the things you dont agree with.Im not saying i agree with all the statements you have made but you have given me extra food for thought.-But-it doesnt really matter!You love Jesus and so do i!All is well.
 
Member
adstar,

you explicitly state that this young catholic priest will be doomed to eternity in hell. is this because you are ready to condemn all catholics to hell? if this is the case, are you therefore saying that the Holy Spirit does not dwell within the catholic church in any way, and not within any catholics also?

i ask this because for me it is not our place to judge other denominations, our purpose is to love, not to hate and condemn. no matter what the denomination, no matter whether jew or gentile, no matter whether the person believes in themselves to be saved or not, whether a saint or a sinner; to me it doesn't matter, to me all that matters is the person is like all people made in the image of God. how are we to therefore condemn something made in His image?

I just think this is a great way of looking at the common bond that christians who recognise Christ as their saviour have in common
as sparky stated we are all part of the body of Christ, with Christ as the head. all united in service and love, all unified by Christ to work for and with each other. Christ loves us all as we are, He himself has chosen the denomination for us, that best suits ourselves, the denomination through which we can best serve Christ and all people; for Christ knows me, like He knows us all, better than we can ever know ourselves. therefore i submit to His authority over my life, and when man shall judge me, hate me and condemn me, i will look to the Lord for help, i will forgive them, i will pray for them, and i will love them.

God bless

scrappy
 
Administrator
Staff Member
I didn't see any part where Adstar condemns any catholic to hell, he mentioned that only GOD has authority to do so. I agree.

I know for sure that the catholic doctrines is way off track in so many ways:

1. "hail mary"
2. statues
3. same old song type of rituals/"masses"/traditions
4. tampered doctrine itself
 
Member
adstar,

you explicitly state that this young catholic priest will be doomed to eternity in hell. is this because you are ready to condemn all catholics to hell? if this is the case, are you therefore saying that the Holy Spirit does not dwell within the catholic church in any way, and not within any catholics also?

i ask this because for me it is not our place to judge other denominations, our purpose is to love, not to hate and condemn. no matter what the denomination, no matter whether jew or gentile, no matter whether the person believes in themselves to be saved or not, whether a saint or a sinner; to me it doesn't matter, to me all that matters is the person is like all people made in the image of God. how are we to therefore condemn something made in His image?
Scrapy did you read all of my reply to sparky? Please go back and this time read it without letting your emotions get in the way. And if you still stand by what i have quoted above let me know and i will reply to it.

All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
Member
adstar,

out of respect for sparky i will take the questions i have to another thread, for this thread was started to show one thing and one thing only in my opinion and that is that we are togehter in this. we are together in Christ. no matter what our personal differences, no matter what our ways of worshipping the Lord, no matters what Spiritual gifts we are graced with we are together. we are together because we are the body of Christ.

we are the body of Christ, united in His love; united because of His love. are we not then to live together in this love? are we not then to love togehter in this love? are we not then to work together in His love? putting behind us our differences and concentrating on what is the truth, the truth that is Christ; the truth that is His love for all; the truth that He Himself sacrificed His life for our salvation; the truth that He rose again to take us with Him to eternal bliss.

if you believe that i answered with 'emotion' i did, but only with the emotion called love. for i have seen enough arguements and pain on this forum and in no way am i going to add to this.

God bless

scrappy
 
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