The baptism in Fire

[Butch5]

Two questions did Jesus satisfy his father by the sacrifice of himself for man’s sins?
Did Jesus die while offering himself to his Father?

The real question is, was He satisfied? Did it satisfy God to do that? It's hard to believe I even have to ask such a question. Where does Scripture say that God's wrath was appeased by Christ's death?

However, to answer your question, NO.

Why do you completely ignore the fact that the doctrine didn't appear until the 1500s?

 

[B-A-C]

Penal Atonement says that God demanded the death of His own Son to appease His wrath. The first thing we should consider is how does that align with God's character. The second thing we should consider is why doesn't this doctrine appear in church history before the Reformation in the 1500s. As I've stated, the early Christians knew nothing of this idea. If the early Christians knew nothing of it, then where did it come from? Also, if God is the one who demanded it, how is it a sacrifice on Jesus' part?

Consider this doctrine. It says that God demanded the death of His Son to appease His wrath. Think about that. What do we find in Scripture regarding the pagans? We find that they sacrificed their children to appease the wrath of their gods. Surely no one will accuse God of pagan practices?

"consider how it aligns with God's character", a phrase I hear frequently from people who don't understand God's character.
If it disagrees with what the Bible says, then your opinion of God's character is wrong.

Why doesn't doctrine appear before the Reformation in the 1500's. I personally have books older than that, I can assure it does appear. Also it doesn't come from man's books it comes from verses all through the Bible.
As far as God copying the pagans... who existed first... God or the pagans? Who is copying who here?

But while we are on the subject.

Gen 22:2; He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

It just so happens that God may tell you to do exactly that.

 

[B-A-C]

Another problem with this idea is that God said He would forgive sins. According to this doctrine that's not true. Does God lie? Scripture says He doesn't. Forgiveness and payment are mutually exclusive. So, it has to be one way or the other. It can't be both. Either sins are paid for or they are forgiven. They can't be both.

This is ridiculous. Let's say you stole $500 from me. Several things could happen here.

1. You paid me back, but I don't forgive you even though you paid me back.
2. You never paid me back, but I forgave you anyway.
3. You paid me back, and I forgave you.
4. You never paid me back, and I never forgave you.

Forgiveness and payment have little to with each other.

 

[Butch5]

"consider how it aligns with God's character", a phrase I hear frequently from people who don't understand God's character.
If it disagrees with what the Bible says, then your opinion of God's character is wrong.

Except, it doesn't disagree with Scripture.

Why doesn't doctrine appear before the Reformation in the 1500's. I personally have books older than that, I can assure it does appear. Also it doesn't come from man's books it comes from verses all through the Bible.

Yet you didn't post a single one. You also didn't answer why the doctrine doesn't appear until the 1500's. If it was what the Scriptures teach we should find it in the early church. We don't.

As far as God copying the pagans... who existed first... God or the pagans? Who is copying who here?

I didn't say anything about copying. I said that's what the pagans do. Why would Christians believe that God would do as the pagans? If you read what I posted it's clear that God majorly condemned the practice. So much so that He destroyed their city and renamed the place the valley of slaughter. We read elsewhere that that location will be filled with the dead.

But while we are on the subject.

Gen 22:2; He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

It just so happens that God may tell you to do exactly that.

How'd that turn out?

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 22:11–12.

 

[Butch5]

This is ridiculous. Let's say you stole $500 from me. Several things could happen here.

1. You paid me back, but I don't forgive you even though you paid me back.
2. You never paid me back, but I forgave you anyway.
3. You paid me back, and I forgave you.
4. You never paid me back, and I never forgave you.

Forgiveness and payment have little to with each other.

In that context maybe. However, let's keep everything in context. The Reformers laid out the doctrine in a legal format. In a legal format, a debt cannot be both paid and forgiven. They are mutually exclusive.
Sure, personally you could forgive me whether I repaid you or not. But that's not a legal format. That's personal.

Also, we have nothing in Scripture that suggests we owe a debt to God for sin. Paul said, "The wages of sin is death". Wages aren't a debt. They are something we earn based on our actions.

 

[B-A-C]

"The wages of sin is death". Wages aren't a debt. They are something we earn based on our actions.

Again silliness.

If I use electricity, I earn an electric bill. If I kill someone I earn prison. If I speed I earn a ticket.
I pay the debt in prison, I pay the debt of my bill, I pay the debt on my ticket.

Semantics.

 

[Butch5]

Again silliness.

If I use electricity, I earn an electric bill. If I kill someone I earn prison. If I speed I earn a ticket.
I pay the debt in prison, I pay the debt of my bill, I pay the debt on my ticket.

Semantics.

Semantics. That's often what I hear when someone is trying to sidestep and issue. Wages aren't debt. The wages of sin is death. Men sin, men die. What was paid?

 

[Curtis]

The real question is, was He satisfied? Did it satisfy God to do that?

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:.....

 

[Charlie24]

Semantics. That's often what I hear when someone is trying to sidestep and issue. Wages aren't debt. The wages of sin is death. Men sin, men die. What was paid?

Spiritual death will be paid to the one who lives a life of sin without repenting and turning from that sin.

It's the "you reap what you sow" principle. "The wages of sin is death."

All sin is against God, and man will pay for that sin against God unless he repents and turns from that sin.

 

[Curtis]

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

1Co 6:20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1Co 7:23 God paid a high price for you, so don’t be enslaved by the world.

 

[Butch5]

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:.....

10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed: 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. 12 Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities.

Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton, The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament: English Translation (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1870), Is 53:9–12.

The Septuagint predates the Masoretic text by several hundred years and is the OT that Jesus and the apostles used.

 

[Butch5]

Spiritual death will be paid to the one who lives a life of sin without repenting and turning from that sin.

It's the "you reap what you sow" principle. "The wages of sin is death."

All sin is against God, and man will pay for that sin against God unless he repents and turns from that sin.

Can you show me "anything" in Scripture that speaks of spiritual death?

 

[Charlie24]

Can you show me "anything" in Scripture that speaks of spiritual death?

Rev. 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years,"

The first death is physical death.

The second death is spiritual death.

"The wages of sin is death" includes both.

 

[Butch5]

Rev. 20:6

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years,"

The first death is physical death.

The second death is spiritual death.

"The wages of sin is death" includes both.

Actually, both deaths are physical.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have ndone evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 5:28–29.

The evil are resurrected just like the righteous. The difference is the righteous go into eternal life. The evil go to the second death. That is their resurrection to damnation or their second death. They will literally die a second time.

There is nothing in all of Scripture that speaks of a "spiritual death". At least not pertaining to man. One could say that the demons being destroyed is a form of spiritual death. However, that has nothing to do with humans. Humans aren't spirits so they can't have spiritual death.

 

[Charlie24]

Actually, both deaths are physical.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have ndone evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 5:28–29.

The evil are resurrected just like the righteous. The difference is the righteous go into eternal life. The evil go to the second death. That is their resurrection to damnation or their second death. They will literally die a second time.

There is nothing in all of Scripture that speaks of a "spiritual death". At least not pertaining to man. One could say that the demons being destroyed is a form of spiritual death. However, that has nothing to do with humans. Humans aren't spirits so they can't have spiritual death.

How can they literally die the second time? Does not the Scripture say, "for it is appointed once unto man to die (the physical death" and then the judgment."

Spiritual death is is exactly what Rev. 20:6 says it is, "the second death has no power."

It's speaking of the power to cast you into Hell. By the pardon of God through faith in Christ man will not face the "second death," spiritual death for eternity in Hell.

 

[Butch5]

How can they literally die the second time? Does not the Scripture say, "for it is appointed once unto man to die (the physical death" and then the judgment."

Spiritual death is is exactly what Rev. 20:6 says it is, "the second death has no power."

It's speaking of the power to cast you into Hell. By the pardon of God through faith in Christ man will not face the "second death," spiritual death for eternity in Hell.

Charlie,

How can they literally die a second time? It's easy. They are resurrected. That means they are alive a second time, physically. After they are made alive a second time they will be judged. Those who are wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire and die a second time. That's why it's called the Second Death.

There is no such thing in Scripture as spiritual death, at least pertaining to humans. I asked you to show me anything. You pointed to a passage that you "presume" speaks of spiritual death. However, the passage says nothing about spiritual death. That it's called the second death implies that it's like the first one. If the first one is physical then the second must be likewise.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie,

How can they literally die a second time? It's easy. They are resurrected. That means they are alive a second time, physically. After they are made alive a second time they will be judged. Those who are wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire and die a second time. That's why it's called the Second Death.

There is no such thing in Scripture as spiritual death, at least pertaining to humans. I asked you to show me anything. You pointed to a passage that you "presume" speaks of spiritual death. However, the passage says nothing about spiritual death. That it's called the second death implies that it's like the first one. If the first one is physical then the second must be likewise.

I find it hard to believe this has never been explained to you.

The "second death" which is spiritual death is the opposite of "eternal life."

Eternal life is eternity with God. Spiritual death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

I agree both the saved and the unsaved are resurrected to life with a new body.

But both live forever, the saved with God, the unsaved in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Butch5]

I find it hard to believe this has never been explained to you.

The "second death" which is spiritual death is the opposite of "eternal life."

Eternal life is eternity with God. Spiritual death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

I agree both the saved and the unsaved are resurrected to life with a new body.

But both live forever, the saved with God, the unsaved in the Lake of Fire.

It was explained to me. And, I believed it back before I started to study the Scriptures. That's when I began to see all of the erroneous teachings they taught me. I've since abandoned those errors.

again, please show me "anything" in Scripture that speaks of spiritual death.

Where does Scripture say that spiritual death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire?

 

[Charlie24]

It was explained to me. And, I believed it back before I started to study the Scriptures. That's when I began to see all of the erroneous teachings they taught me. I've since abandoned those errors.

again, please show me "anything" in Scripture that speaks of spiritual death.

I already have. Spiritual death is the loss of one's soul, the second death the unsaved will face, eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

If you choose not to believe that, well, it's fine with me.

 

[Butch5]

I already have. Spiritual death is the loss of one's soul, the second death the unsaved will face, eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

If you choose not to believe that, well, it's fine with me.

You've made an arbitrary statement. The loss of one's soul is death. Jesus gave His soul for sin. Would you suggest that Jesus died spiritually, as you put it?

The Second death is called the second because it's like the first. I don't ask someone to give me a second piece of cake if I want ice cream. If I ask for a second piece of cake, it's because I want another like the first one I had.

Christians would learn so much if they would just look at church history. What makes you think that everything you've been taught is correct?