The baptism in Fire

[Charlie24]

I understand it quite well. Penal atonement is a product of the Reformation. For the first thousand years of church history they didn't know anything about a sin debt. The idea of satisfying God's wrath came about around 1100 AD from a Catholic theologian name Anselm of Canterbury. He instituted what is known as the Satisfaction model of the Atonement. This is what the Reformers had. They tweaked it into the Penal model that many beleive today.

The problem is that it doesn't fit with Scripture. The wages of sin is death. Men sin, men die. Scripture is replete with statements about God forgiving sin. If that sin is paid for it's not forgiven. The two are mutually exclusive. Either sin is paid for or forgiven. It can't be both.

I guess you didn't see the condition I posted. Christ paid the sin debt in full for all men.

But the condition, what is that? That's where man is pardoned when he meets the condition.

The one who does not meet that condition is not pardoned from his sins though those sins are paid for.

 

[Butch5]

You also need to know why Christ had to die on the Cross.

The most vilest of sin had to be paid by the most vilest form of death known to man of that day.

He suffered to the maximum degree for the most horrific sins committed by man.

Is there any Love greater than this?

Think about it. Is it love to say that God did that to His own Son? This doctrine is one of the most vile when comes to God's character. The Scriptures say that God will forgive sins. However, the doctrine of Penal Atonemnet says no He won't. It says He requires the torture of His own Son. He could just forgive sins, like Scripture says.

This doctrine is an assault on God's character like none other of the erroneous doctrines that Christians hold. To say that God could forgive sins, like He promised, but doesn't, instead demands the torture and torment of His own "beloved" Son is monstrous. If a human father did this people would be outraged. They'd call for his execution. But, amazingly, somehow Christians don't seem to have any problem with it when accusing God of it.

Sometimes I wonder what they were thinking when they came up with these doctrines.

 

[Butch5]

I guess you didn't see the condition I posted. Christ paid the sin debt in full for all men.

But the condition, what is that? That's where man is pardoned when he meets the condition.

The one who does not meet that condition is not pardoned from his sins though those sins are paid for.

You can't pardon and not pardon the same debt. That's a logical contradiction.

You could say Jesus "potentially" paid the debt (even though there is no debt) and it's contingent on faith. However, the problem is that John didn't say Jesus "potentially paid the debt . (What debt)

Can you me where Scripture says we owe a debt for sin?

 

[Charlie24]

Think about it. Is it love to say that God did that to His own Son? This doctrine is one of the most vile when comes to God's character. The Scriptures say that God will forgive sins. However, the doctrine of Penal Atonemnet says no He won't. It says He requires the torture of His own Son. He could just forgive sins, like Scripture says.

This doctrine is an assault on God's character like none other of the erroneous doctrines that Christians hold. To say that God could forgive sins, like He promised, but doesn't, instead demands the torture and torment of His own "beloved" Son is monstrous. If a human father did this people would be outraged. They'd call for his execution. But, amazingly, somehow Christians don't seem to have any problem with it when accusing God of it.

Sometimes I wonder what they were thinking when they came up with these doctrines.

I suspected you had no knowledge of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, now it's confirmed!

You're further away than I thought, Butch. You're speaking as an Agnostic, maybe even an Atheist.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm sorry you can't see the love.

 

[Charlie24]

I suspected you had no knowledge of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, now it's confirmed!

You're further away than I thought, Butch. You're speaking as an Agnostic, maybe even an Atheist.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm sorry you can't see the love.

I think I'm finished with this, God bless you Butch!!!

 

[Butch5]

I suspected you had no knowledge of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, now it's confirmed!

You're further away than I thought, Butch. You're speaking as an Agnostic, maybe even an Atheist.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm sorry you can't see the love.

What's sad Charlie, is that it's not me who's far away. As I said, this doctrine has only been around for 500 years. Why are you arguing for a doctrine that can only be traced back to the Reformers? Surely if this was taught by the apostles the early church would have taught it. Yet, they knew nothing of it. How do you suppose that is? How is it that no one in the church taught this until the 1500's?

The doctrine is self contradictory. The typical way it is expressed is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins so that we could be forgiven. That is a logical contradiction. A penalty or debt cannot be both paid and forgiven.

It bad enough that the Reformers came up with such a nonsensical statement, but that so many repeat it shows a huge lack of critical thinking on the part of the church.

What's equally disheartening is how quickly you replied back. It suggests to me that you didn't stop and think about the implications of this doctrine and how it impugns God's character

 

[Butch5]

I think I'm finished with this, God bless you Butch!!!

God bless. Don't let the frustration be an issue. Use it for good. Think about what I said and see if there's not something to it.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Brother,

do you think you could explain this a bit better, please?

Think about it. Is it love to say that God did that to His own Son? This doctrine is one of the most vile when comes to God's character. The Scriptures say that God will forgive sins. However, the doctrine of Penal Atonemnet says no He won't. It says He requires the torture of His own Son. He could just forgive sins, like Scripture says.

This doctrine is an assault on God's character like none other of the erroneous doctrines that Christians hold. To say that God could forgive sins, like He promised, but doesn't, instead demands the torture and torment of His own "beloved" Son is monstrous. If a human father did this people would be outraged. They'd call for his execution. But, amazingly, somehow Christians don't seem to have any problem with it when accusing God of it.

Sometimes I wonder what they were thinking when they came up with these doctrines.

Not the bit about 'modern' doctrine, but the why Jesus was Crucified. Is there any Bible reference that His death 'covered' anything pertaining to people and salvation?


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

Think about it. Is it love to say that God did that to His own Son? This doctrine is one of the most vile when comes to God's character. The Scriptures say that God will forgive sins. However, the doctrine of Penal Atonemnet says no He won't. It says He requires the torture of His own Son. He could just forgive sins, like Scripture says.

I used to be a fireman. When I was going through the fire academy I made an oath. If I could save someone else's life I would. Even if it could cost me my own life, I would do it.
In World War II, the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed a little over 200,000 people. That's a lot of people, but it's estimated that 70 to 80 million people died in World War II.
That's about 20 million people per year. So, killing 200,000 seems like a small price to pay to save the next 20 million that may have died the next year.

Isa 53:4; Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5; But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
Isa 53:6; All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
Isa 53:7; He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.
Isa 53:8; By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
Isa 53:9; His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
Isa 53:10; But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11; As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

If Jesus had to die, to save millions and millions of people. He loved us enough to do it.
If I had to die to save my wife and children, I would do it. I know I would. I love them that much.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17; "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Heb 5:8; Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Heb 5:9; And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Before Jesus died, animals were sacrificed and offered up for sin.

Heb 9:6; Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
Heb 9:7; but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.

But after Jesus died, this is no longer required.

Heb 9:11; But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
Heb 9:12; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13; For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
Heb 9:14; how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:16; For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Heb 9:17; For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
Heb 9:18; Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

Heb 9:22; And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Heb 9:25; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
Heb 9:26; Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Heb 9:28; so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Jesus didn't die because the Father hated Him. He died so He could save the world. He loved us that much. He loved you that much.

 

[Curtis]

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Curtis]

Rom 8:3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.

Rom 8:4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit. (NLT)

 

[complete]

I understand it quite well. Penal atonement is a product of the Reformation. For the first thousand years of church history they didn't know anything about a sin debt. The idea of satisfying God's wrath came about around 1100 AD from a Catholic theologian name Anselm of Canterbury. He instituted what is known as the Satisfaction model of the Atonement. This is what the Reformers had. They tweaked it into the Penal model that many beleive today.

The problem is that it doesn't fit with Scripture. The wages of sin is death. Men sin, men die. Scripture is replete with statements about God forgiving sin. If that sin is paid for it's not forgiven. The two are mutually exclusive. Either sin is paid for or forgiven. It can't be both.

'And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary
that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these;
but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands,
which are the figures of the true;
but into heaven itself,
now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Nor yet that He should offer Himself often,
as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time
without sin unto salvation.;
(Heb 9:23-28)

 

[Curtis]

A penalty or debt cannot be both paid and forgiven.

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Co 7:23 God paid a high price for you, so don’t be enslaved by the world. (NLT)

1Pe 1:18 For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And it was not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their value.
1Pe 1:19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

The only reason a person is "forgiven" is because someone else paid the price for their "forgiveness"

 

[Butch5]

I used to be a fireman. When I was going through the fire academy I made an oath. If I could save someone else's life I would. Even if it could cost me my own life, I would do it.
In World War II, the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed a little over 200,000 people. That's a lot of people, but it's estimated that 70 to 80 million people died in World War II.
That's about 20 million people per year. So, killing 200,000 seems like a small price to pay to save the next 20 million that may have died the next year.

Isa 53:4; Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5; But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
Isa 53:6; All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
Isa 53:7; He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.
Isa 53:8; By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
Isa 53:9; His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
Isa 53:10; But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11; As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

If Jesus had to die, to save millions and millions of people. He loved us enough to do it.
If I had to die to save my wife and children, I would do it. I know I would. I love them that much.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17; "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Heb 5:8; Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Heb 5:9; And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Before Jesus died, animals were sacrificed and offered up for sin.

Heb 9:6; Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
Heb 9:7; but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.

But after Jesus died, this is no longer required.

Heb 9:11; But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
Heb 9:12; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13; For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
Heb 9:14; how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 9:16; For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Heb 9:17; For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
Heb 9:18; Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

Heb 9:22; And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Heb 9:25; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
Heb 9:26; Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Heb 9:28; so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Jesus didn't die because the Father hated Him. He died so He could save the world. He loved us that much. He loved you that much.

Hi B-A-C

I agree Jesus gave His life. However, that's not what I was addressing. Penal Atonement says that God demanded the death of His own Son to appease His wrath. The first thing we should consider is how does that align with God's character. The second thing we should consider is why doesn't this doctrine appear in church history before the Reformation in the 1500s. As I've stated, the early Christians knew nothing of this idea. If the early Christians knew nothing of it, then where did it come from? Also, if God is the one who demanded it, how is it a sacrifice on Jesus' part?

Consider this doctrine. It says that God demanded the death of His Son to appease His wrath. Think about that. What do we find in Scripture regarding the pagans? We find that they sacrificed their children to appease the wrath of their gods. Surely no one will accuse God of pagan practices?

Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter’s earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests; 2 And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee, 3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. 4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, lwhich I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: 6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter. 7 And I will omake void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. 8 And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof. 9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 19:1–9.


My friend, you're trying to defend the indefensible. I'm sure just about everyone reading this thread would give their lives for their children. However, how many would give their children up to save someone like Hillter? The issue isn't God giving up His Son. It's saying that He demanded the torture and death of HIs Son, for the sole purpose of appeasing His anger. Why would Christians be OK with this?

Another problem with this idea is that God said He would forgive sins. According to this doctrine that's not true. Does God lie? Scripture says He doesn't. Forgiveness and payment are mutually exclusive. So, it has to be one way or the other. It can't be both. Either sins are paid for or they are forgiven. They can't be both.

Here's another problem. Many if not most Christians believe the payment for sin is Eternal Conscious Torment. If Jesus is in Heaven, He isn't suffering Eternal Conscious Torment. So, what was paid?

I could go on and on. If people would think through some of these doctrines they'd realize how much Christians over the centuries have changed the original faith.

Here's a short blurb from Wikipedia.

"The penal substitution theory is a specific interpretation of vicarious (substitutionary) atonement, which in turn goes back to Second Temple Judaism,[citation needed] although some evangelicals such as William Lane Craig cite the offer of Moses of the death of himself instead of the people of Israel (Exodus 32:30-34) as an example of this substitution.[6] It was developed during the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century,[3][7][1][2][4][5][8][9] being advocated by Martin Luther[note 1] and John Calvin.[10] It was more concretely formulated by the Reformed theologian Charles Hodge (1797–1878). Advocates of penal substitution argue that the concept is both biblically-based[11] and rooted in the historical traditions of the Christian Church.[12]"

Again, ask yourself why it came about in the 16th century.

Also, here is the Septuagint of Isaiah 53:10. Notice it doesn't say the Lord was pleased to bruise Him.

7 And he, because of his affliction, opens not his mouth: he was led as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. 8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken away from the earth: because of the iniquities of my people he was led to death. 9 And I will give the wicked for his burial, and the rich for his death; for he practised no iniquity, nor craft with his mouth. 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed: 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form him with understanding; to justify the just one who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. 12 Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities.

Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton, The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament: English Translation (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1870), Is 53:7–12.

 

[Butch5]

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Co 7:23 God paid a high price for you, so don’t be enslaved by the world. (NLT)

1Pe 1:18 For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And it was not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their value.
1Pe 1:19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

The only reason a person is "forgiven" is because someone else paid the price for their "forgiveness"

That's a logical contradiction. It can't be. However, notice the passage you quoted. "God paid a high price for you." Did He pay Himself? That doesn't make sense, does it? So, who did He pay?

 

[Butch5]

'And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of blood is no remission.
It was therefore necessary
that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these;
but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands,
which are the figures of the true;
but into heaven itself,
now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Nor yet that He should offer Himself often,
as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time
without sin unto salvation.;
(Heb 9:23-28)

Yes, He bore the sins of many. That doesn't necessitate appeasing the wrath of God. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at Chris.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings Brother,

do you think you could explain this a bit better, please?



Not the bit about 'modern' doctrine, but the why Jesus was Crucified. Is there any Bible reference that His death 'covered' anything pertaining to people and salvation?


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br. Bear,

Sure. Scripture says He died as a ransom. Isaiah says He gave His life for sins. The question is at whose behest was the death of Christ?

 

[Curtis]

"God paid a high price for you." Did He pay Himself? That doesn't make sense, does it? So, who did He pay?

1Pe 1:18 For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And it was not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their value.
1Pe 1:19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.


Heb 9:14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. (NLT)

Jesus offered Himself as the Son of God to His Father for man's transgressions.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Heb 10:5 That is why, when Christ came into the world, he said to God, “You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings. But you have given me a body to offer.
Heb 10:6 You were not pleased with burnt offerings or other offerings for sin.
Heb 10:7 Then I said, ‘Look, I have come to do your will, O God—as is written about me in the Scriptures.’”
Heb 10:8 First, Christ said, “You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings or burnt offerings or other offerings for sin, nor were you pleased with them” (though they are required by the law of Moses).
Heb 10:9 Then he said, “Look, I have come to do your will.” He cancels the first covenant in order to put the second into effect.
Heb 10:10 For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

Heb 9:11 So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.
Heb 9:12 With his own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.


Isa 53:10 But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
Isa 53:11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins.

 

[Butch5]

1Pe 1:18 For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And it was not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their value.
1Pe 1:19 It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.


Heb 9:14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. (NLT)

Jesus offered Himself as the Son of God to His Father for man's transgressions.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Heb 10:5 That is why, when Christ came into the world, he said to God, “You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings. But you have given me a body to offer.
Heb 10:6 You were not pleased with burnt offerings or other offerings for sin.
Heb 10:7 Then I said, ‘Look, I have come to do your will, O God—as is written about me in the Scriptures.’”
Heb 10:8 First, Christ said, “You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings or burnt offerings or other offerings for sin, nor were you pleased with them” (though they are required by the law of Moses).
Heb 10:9 Then he said, “Look, I have come to do your will.” He cancels the first covenant in order to put the second into effect.
Heb 10:10 For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

Heb 9:11 So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.
Heb 9:12 With his own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.


Isa 53:10 But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
Isa 53:11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins.

Yes, He offered Himself To God. Where does that say anything about Him dying to appease God's wrath? Again, this doctrine didn't show up until the 1500s. This is a clear indication that the Reformers misunderstood something. If we see a doctrine suddenly appearing 1400 years after the time of the apostles, it's clearly something someone made up. They misunderstood the Scriptures because they came to the Scriptures with erroneous presuppositions, They were brought up in the Satisfaction model of the Atonement. This was wrong and since they started with a wrong understanding they ended up with a wrong understanding.

 

[Curtis]

Where does that say anything about Him dying to appease God's wrath

Two questions did Jesus satisfy his father by the sacrifice of himself for man’s sins? ( Isa 53:11 )
Did Jesus die while offering himself to his Father?