The Abominations of Homosexuality, Transgenderism, Transvestism, and Sexual Immorality

[B-A-C]

I confess, I haven't read every post in this thread. I got a little behind and it was a lot of catch up.

But from what I gather we are talking about two kinds of people here.
The first group is the un-saved, un believers. Non-Christians.
The un-saved. To them what God thinks or says doesn't matter... because well... there is no God.

"Some" did I say SOME, let me say sOmE, people need to hear the gospel shared in a way of love and grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Many people get saved when they hear this message.

Some people need to hear about fire and brimstone. A great many people get saved when they hear about eternity in hell.
There is NOTHING wring with this kind of preaching. We used to call this revival, that was at a time in this country when thousands of people were coming to God everyday.

However there isn't a "one size fits all" message for everyone. AS some here have said, you need to be led by the Spirit.

The second group of people are those who claim to be Christians.
These people claim to believe in God/Jesus and for the most part... the Bible.
If they are promoting sexual sin (homosexual or otherwise), they should know better. Now if they are brand new Christians, I might treat the situation
a little differently from those who have been "saved" for a while and have read through the Bible.
Once you are saved, if you are still choosing to live in sin, these people don't need to hear about love, mercy and grace. They need to hear the truth.
The truth is, if they don't repent... they are lost. They may not want to hear about fire and brimstone, but that will be their future.

Jesus had very little patience for those who claimed to be God's people but weren't living like they were. He called them hypocrites, sons of hell
and a brood of vipers.

 

[Chad4Him]

I confess, I haven't read every post in this thread. I got a little behind and it was a lot of catch up.

But from what I gather we are talking about two kinds of people here.
The first group is the un-saved, un believers. Non-Christians.
The un-saved. To them what God thinks or says doesn't matter... because well... there is no God.

"Some" did I say SOME, let me say sOmE, people need to hear the gospel shared in a way of love and grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Many people get saved when they hear this message.

Some people need to hear about fire and brimstone. A great many people get saved when they hear about eternity in hell.
There is NOTHING wring with this kind of preaching. We used to call this revival, that was at a time in this country when thousands of people were coming to God everyday.

However there isn't a "one size fits all" message for everyone. AS some here have said, you need to be led by the Spirit.

The second group of people are those who claim to be Christians.
These people claim to believe in God/Jesus and for the most part... the Bible.
If they are promoting sexual sin (homosexual or otherwise), they should know better. Now if they are brand new Christians, I might treat the situation
a little differently from those who have been "saved" for a while and have read through the Bible.
Once you are saved, if you are still choosing to live in sin, these people don't need to hear about love, mercy and grace. They need to hear the truth.
The truth is, if they don't repent... they are lost. They may not want to hear about fire and brimstone, but that will be their future.

Jesus had very little patience for those who claimed to be God's people but weren't living like they were. He called them hypocrites, sons of hell
and a brood of vipers.

Good points. I agree there is a difference between sinners who don't claim to be Christians, versus those who claim to be followers of Jesus yet live in sin. They not only are deceiving themselves but they are like wolves deceiving others. There is definitely a time to rebuke such people especially if they are teaching or influencing others.

 

[KingJ]

However, the truth is that many don't want that correction, and so the reason for the witness. For those, the truth can be that no matter how one handles them, whether it be with kid gloves or not. They won't listen.

Completely agree with all you have said with the exception of the above.

A person in mortal sin requires drastic action on our part. This is not always bullhorn vs kid gloves. We also can't do nothing as they 'won't listen'. They are still alive and God has put them in our space because He has hope for us reaching them.

We have to picture a person falling off a building. That is a mortal sinner. We need to put everything we have into grabbing their hand and helping them up.

We can take softer, sweeter, calmer approaches with those in venial sins. They need to be convinced / convicted to move from the space they are in to a Christian space. Their minds have convinced them that they are not 'that bad' as they are not committing mortal sins.

Everyone of us has a working brain and can grasp what wickedness is and the depths to it. Gen 3:22 is clear.

There are some special difficulties with GLBT though. If they don't acknowledge God, they don't get mortal sin type conviction of their sin. A murderer for example knows he is going to hell. So I guess with them we do need a combination of wired4fishen and Povawique's approaches.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

A person in mortal sin requires drastic action on our part.

those in venial

There are some special difficulties with GLBT though. If they don't acknowledge God, they don't get mortal sin type conviction of their sin. A murderer for example knows he is going to hell.

KJ this reads like you divide sin into class A sins and class B sins. Truth is , sin is sin. God views sin as sin.

Now if sin sent one to hell then the one who stole paper clips from work would be going to hell as fast as the adulterer.

However its not the sin that sends one to hell, it's the Lack of Christ Jesus in their life.
No Jesus, then no getting into heaven.

A person can live a good life and in fact live a life better then most Christians but if they never Received Jesus as Lord then they too go to hell.

When we tell a person they are going to hell because they are gay then we are lying to them. Its not having Jesus that is sending them to hell.

Scripture tells us we all fall short and filthy with sin.

Please don't turn this around and claim I am saying being gay is ok because I am not.

Gay people are no harder to reach then the adulterer or thief or drunkard etc.

Please do not claim I don't know anything about the lgbt.
I was working with people in a ministry before the t was even added. It was about 2003 when lgb became lgbt.

In this day and hour, the scare tatic of turn or burn does very little other then giving life to anger.
This is the lawless generation who fears little and loves self and despises laws and rules.

Blessings in Christ
Wired

 

[KingJ]

KJ this reads like you divide sin into class A sins and class B sins. Truth is , sin is sin. God views sin as sin.

No, He doesn't. You need to ''ignore'' 3/4 of the bible to come to that belief. Sin is sin and sin has degrees. Thought of adultery is a sin Matt 5:28, but actual adultery is the only grounds for divorce Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9 And I say to you: Whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.

Please stop saying sin is sin! It is a half truth. I have been corrected on this and am correcting you now for the millionth time. When you say 'sin is sin' and place a full-stop there, you are further stumbling those in mortal sins.

Now if sin sent one to hell then the one who stole paper clips from work would be going to hell as fast as the adulterer.

If by hell you infer the bad side of Hades or the coming lake of fire, no. Sin has sent nobody to these places!

A love of sin has sent them there. Sinners were in Abraham's bosom. We are sinners before and after being born again. John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Sin separates us from God. Places us in 'death'. Not in 'hell'. Rom 6:23 Wages of sin is death. Not hell.

 

[KingJ]

However its not the sin that sends one to hell, it's the Lack of Christ Jesus in their life.
No Jesus, then no getting into heaven.

Let's just be crystal clear that Jesus is not a lottery ticket. You and I are not '''lucky'' for knowing about Jesus or being in the right religion.

God pays a visit to those after His heart, gives them faith in Jesus and reveals Jesus as Lord to them. We are after His heart if we hate what is wicked and cling to what is good. Mortal sin points to being closer to hating what is good. Sold out to sin. If you study the OT you will see God's wrath came when peoples sin was 'full measure'. Depth of evil and consistent evil.

1 Cor 12:3 Nobody can call Jesus Lord, exept by the Holy Spirit.
James 4:8 Draw near to God by: ''Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded''.
Rom 12:9 Genuine love is hate what is evil and cling to what is good.

A person can live a good life and in fact live a life better then most Christians but if they never Received Jesus as Lord then they too go to hell.

You are being a bit blurry in your statement here. Sounds like you saying we are 'lucky' because we got to hear about and accept Jesus. If that is what you are saying then you need to think about how God chose David, Abraham, John the Baptist, Solomon, Elijah, Esther, Jacob, Moses, Malachi, Peter, Paul.

We don't receive Jesus. We accept Jesus and He then comes in and rules our life. He only comes in, if we follow the second part of James 4:8 and a verse like Matt 16:24 'lay our lives down for Him'. When He comes in, the first things to go are mortal sins. Paul stopped murdering 100% after his conversion. No '''lets work on this over a period of a year''.

 

[KingJ]

When we tell a person they are going to hell because they are gay then we are lying to them. Its not having Jesus that is sending them to hell.

It is not lying. Their sin is evidence of them being close to being sold out to sin. Those sold out to sin, go to hell. As explained in the posts above.

Scripture tells us we all fall short and filthy with sin.

Yes, we all have sin. Only God is perfect and 'good' Mark 10:18. But God still sees a difference between a repentant sinner and an unrepentant sinner. God still sees a difference between a sinner sold out to sin and a sinner not. The bible is full of examples.

Paul tells us in 1 Cor 6:1-9 that we can judge matters. We will judge angels one day. What is judgement if we cannot discern different punishments? Who would say a good judge gives a kid who stole candy the same sentence as a murderer?

Please don't turn this around and claim I am saying being gay is ok because I am not.

I know you are not. But what you are doing is putting the sin on par with venial sin. God did not obliterate Sodom because He received news of some kids stealing candy from the candy store.

Gay people are no harder to reach then the adulterer or thief or drunkard etc.

Please do not claim I don't know anything about the lgbt.
I was working with people in a ministry before the t was even added. It was about 2003 when lgb became lgbt.

I would never say you don't know about the sin. You believe in God. You know how annoyed He is when He looks down and sees His intelligent creation completely disrespecting Him. As I said before, He has thoughts of raining sulfur and brimstone on their heads. I just want to ensure we all grasp God's mind and view of this sin.

In this day and hour, the scare tatic of turn or burn does very little other then giving life to anger.

I agree. The scare tactic of hell paints God in a bad light as hell is completely miss-taught. It paints God as the wicked one. It causes the wicked to laugh at us. See us as nutters. We need to be clear that eternal separation is suffering because they are separated from a good God for all eternity. If we do this, the message of turn or weep and gnash teeth for eternity has correct context and hits home instantly. A powerful message.

Their anger is at God not us. The young rich man walked away from Jesus very sad. Jesus did not beat around the bush. He told the truth 'as is'.

This is the lawless generation who fears little and loves self and despises laws and rules.

Agreed and GLBT do not think they are in sin which is why we Christians have discussions like this among ourselves. As I said to Christ4Ever ''There are some special difficulties with GLBT though. If they don't acknowledge God, they don't get mortal sin type conviction of their sin. A murderer for example knows he is going to hell. So I guess with them we do need a combination of wired4fishen and Povawique's approaches.''

 

[KingJ]

I confess, I haven't read every post in this thread. I got a little behind and it was a lot of catch up.

But from what I gather we are talking about two kinds of people here.
The first group is the un-saved, un believers. Non-Christians.
The un-saved. To them what God thinks or says doesn't matter... because well... there is no God.

"Some" did I say SOME, let me say sOmE, people need to hear the gospel shared in a way of love and grace, mercy and forgiveness.
Many people get saved when they hear this message.

Some people need to hear about fire and brimstone. A great many people get saved when they hear about eternity in hell.
There is NOTHING wring with this kind of preaching. We used to call this revival, that was at a time in this country when thousands of people were coming to God everyday.

However there isn't a "one size fits all" message for everyone. AS some here have said, you need to be led by the Spirit.

The second group of people are those who claim to be Christians.
These people claim to believe in God/Jesus and for the most part... the Bible.
If they are promoting sexual sin (homosexual or otherwise), they should know better. Now if they are brand new Christians, I might treat the situation
a little differently from those who have been "saved" for a while and have read through the Bible.
Once you are saved, if you are still choosing to live in sin, these people don't need to hear about love, mercy and grace. They need to hear the truth.
The truth is, if they don't repent... they are lost. They may not want to hear about fire and brimstone, but that will be their future.

Jesus had very little patience for those who claimed to be God's people but weren't living like they were. He called them hypocrites, sons of hell
and a brood of vipers.

10/10 BAC

 

[Christ4Ever]

Quote: However, the truth is that many don't want that correction, and so the reason for the witness. For those, the truth can be that no matter how one handles them, whether it be with kid gloves or not. They won't listen.

Completely agree with all you have said with the exception of the above.

A person in mortal sin requires drastic action on our part. This is not always bullhorn vs kid gloves. We also can't do nothing as they 'won't listen'. They are still alive and God has put them in our space because He has hope for us reaching them.

We have to picture a person falling off a building. That is a mortal sinner. We need to put everything we have into grabbing their hand and helping them up.

We can take softer, sweeter, calmer approaches with those in venial sins. They need to be convinced / convicted to move from the space they are in to a Christian space. Their minds have convinced them that they are not 'that bad' as they are not committing mortal sins.

Everyone of us has a working brain and can grasp what wickedness is and the depths to it. Gen 3:22 is clear.

There are some special difficulties with GLBT though. If they don't acknowledge God, they don't get mortal sin type conviction of their sin. A murderer for example knows he is going to hell. So I guess with them we do need a combination of wired4fishen and Povawique's approaches.

Hello Brother,
I was hoping that you'd agree with all of it
Now to explain that last point.

I had hoped you would have noticed what I have now had underlined and bolded above, in my response to you, that agrees with you in the need for a direct intervention/intercession, and the reason for the witness. Understanding that we're talking about is a believer here, not one who is unsaved. The witness is so that it never becomes he said/she said or in other words, solely dependent upon one person's word. The reason being that if removal from the church is necessary, for example the situation that Paul had to deal with in the Church at Corinth. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, that we have addressed the issue Scripturally.

Scripture is awesome in guiding us in how we should address, the situation of sin. Not to ignore it, but always with Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding and especially Love when dealing with it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

@KingJ

What I mean by sin is sin in Gods eyes is as follows.

Look at the old law. If you broke one law you were as guilty as breaking them all.

When standing before God the adulterer vs the murderer vs the gay vs the thief are just as guilty as the other

Yes there is sins that leads to death and that is physical death.

There is only one sin that leads to Spiritual Death (separation from God) and that is Rejecting Christ.

Blessings

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ

What I mean by sin is sin in Gods eyes is as follows.

Look at the old law. If you broke one law you were as guilty as breaking them all.

When standing before God the adulterer vs the murderer vs the gay vs the thief are just as guilty as the other

Yes there is sins that leads to death and that is physical death.

There is only one sin that leads to Spiritual Death (separation from God) and that is Rejecting Christ.

Blessings

ALL sin leads to spiritual death.

The point being made in James 2:10 is on par with what Jesus says in Matt 5:28. It is not saying / addressing the fact there are degrees of sin and different severities of laws. It is addressing a separate issue. Namely we are all guilty of sin.

When you just take Matt 5:28 and completely ignore Matt 5:32 / Matt 19:9 you ARE preaching a HALF truth. The devil gave half truths to Jesus. It is false teaching. Deceitful teaching.

I am 100% done trying to explain this to you. I just can't get through to you it seems.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I am 100% done trying to explain this to you. I just can't get through to you it seems.

Thank you and blessings, love and hugs in Christ!!

 

[KingJ]

Quote: However, the truth is that many don't want that correction, and so the reason for the witness. For those, the truth can be that no matter how one handles them, whether it be with kid gloves or not. They won't listen.



Hello Brother,
I was hoping that you'd agree with all of it :smile:
Now to explain that last point.

I had hoped you would have noticed what I have now had underlined and bolded above, in my response to you, that agrees with you in the need for a direct intervention/intercession, and the reason for the witness. Understanding that we're talking about is a believer here, not one who is unsaved. The witness is so that it never becomes he said/she said or in other words, solely dependent upon one person's word. The reason being that if removal from the church is necessary, for example the situation that Paul had to deal with in the Church at Corinth. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, that we have addressed the issue Scripturally.

Scripture is awesome in guiding us in how we should address, the situation of sin. Not to ignore it, but always with Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding and especially Love when dealing with it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

I still don't agree. They will listen. They do listen.

We must not confuse two groups in this sin. 1. ''Christians'', 2 unsaved. I agree with you if you are referring to ''Christians''. Very hard. They wont listen. Been there, done that, heard that. But the unsaved / non-Christians / those never truly out of darkness / never tasted the light, no. They are in darkness and their darkness is getting darker, faster. They are falling. They don't need someone hugging and talking to them. Leading them from the edge to a comfy sofa. They need someone reaching out and grabbing them. Too many Christians are throwing flowers and smiling at them as they fall. We feel awkward when we offend them. We can't have that. We must be sweet and loving. Like chocolates and roses. No. We need to be salty and grab them. That is love.

Of course we need to be a 'Christian'' They must not see us as sour grapes, unhelpful, uncaring. We must lay our lives down for them. But we must not beat around the bush. We must tell them day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4, that they are in dire sin.

I have had success with this. I have no success with extra ''befriending''. Extra non offensive witnessing. This type of witnessing leads to them thinking I condone their sin. I don't want them to '''EVER'' think that.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

@KingJ

What I mean by sin is sin in Gods eyes is as follows.

Look at the old law. If you broke one law you were as guilty as breaking them all.

When standing before God the adulterer vs the murderer vs the gay vs the thief are just as guilty as the other

Yes there is sins that leads to death and that is physical death.

There is only one sin that leads to Spiritual Death (separation from God) and that is Rejecting Christ.

Blessings

Let me put it this way.
We are born under the curse and in sin.
We are born as filthy rags and separated from God and this is before we even do an act of any sin.

We are destined for hell from that point forward. Two factors save us from hell at this point.
Age of accountability
Receiving Jesus

So its not any future act of sin that separates us from God or sends us to hell for We are already separated from God.

Its Rejection of Gods Saving Grace, "Christ Jesus".
That is the only reason that lands one in hell.

Blessings

 

[Christ4Ever]

Quote: However, the truth is that many don't want that correction, and so the reason for the witness. For those, the truth can be that no matter how one handles them, whether it be with kid gloves or not. They won't listen.

I still don't agree. They will listen. They do listen.

We must not confuse two groups in this sin. 1. ''Christians'', 2 unsaved. I agree with you if you are referring to ''Christians''. Very hard. They wont listen. Been there, done that, heard that. But the unsaved / non-Christians / those never truly out of darkness / never tasted the light, no. They are in darkness and their darkness is getting darker, faster. They are falling. They don't need someone hugging and talking to them. Leading them from the edge to a comfy sofa. They need someone reaching out and grabbing them. Too many Christians are throwing flowers and smiling at them as they fall. We feel awkward when we offend them. We can't have that. We must be sweet and loving. Like chocolates and roses. No. We need to be salty and grab them. That is love.

Of course we need to be a 'Christian'' They must not see us as sour grapes, unhelpful, uncaring. We must lay our lives down for them. But we must not beat around the bush. We must tell them day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4, that they are in dire sin.

I have had success with this. I have no success with extra ''befriending''. Extra non offensive witnessing. This type of witnessing leads to them thinking I condone their sin. I don't want them to '''EVER'' think that.

Maybe my intent is not clear, due to my use of the word "listen". When I say that they won't listen, I am meaning that there is no effort on their part to correct/address the issue brought before them. Change is a necessary component to a Christians character. A simple way of putting it is "Out with old, and In with the new."

Less easy to make happen regardless of the sin, but I believe even more so with the LGBTI, due to the weakness of the flesh. For it is rare that one is discussing these issues when the person is young, meaning pre-teen, or teenager and have not experienced the life style for any long period of time. Society these days is making it even more difficult if not criminal to deal with these of this age on this subject matter in a negative way. The longer the individual has been doing this sin, or any sin for that matter, the more difficult it becomes to illicit the change, without Supernatural intervention. The Adversary knows this and so the Societal changes we see permeating Academia, the Workplace and sadly you can add Churches to this list as well.

So, if the change didn't happen at the moment of conversion, or even if it does happen, then it requires support and especially Love from us the believers. Which includes prayer, practical assistance in moving away from the day to day life they've been living into a Godly one. This is the same with those who have been incarcerated. If the environment, people they interact with doesn't change then the chance of recidivism becomes greater.

Still, as I have stated before. The above is needed for those who are Saved.

While the Unsaved person, must first come to the Cross where our Lord gave it all to even begin to understand the cost of "Sin". For when one understands ones own sin, in light of the sacrifice of our Jesus who knew no sin and still refuses this gift freely given. We know that Darkness has kept another, even if we pray only for the moment, and this regardless of "how" we may have communicated the Gospel.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

P.S. None of this means that I condone sin, nor that I don't call it as I see it. If a person knowing me a Christian asks of me a question on where I stand as it pertains to LGBTI. I may turn it back on them, with a question of my own, or they'll hear what Scripture clearly states concerning it. As the Holy Spirit moves me brother. Canned answers rarely work well for me! <><

 

[KingJ]

Canned answers rarely work well for me! <><

That is true. I do agree with all you have said. I just have / wanted to harp on the fact that we must from day 1 make known our view of the sin. Even if its just once. Not budge on it in the slightest. As you said they have made their way into church and that is a very serious matter. It requires a harsh stand from those who disagree.

 

[KingJ]

Let me put it this way. We are born under the curse and in sin. We are born as filthy rags and separated from God and this is before we even do an act of any sin. We are destined for hell from that point forward.

Please try understand that nobody is destined for hell because of sin. I explained this in post 45 second paragraph.

Two factors save us from hell at this point. Age of accountability. Receiving Jesus

Age of accountability and brain damage. We do not receive Jesus. We accept and He decides to come in or not based on the sincerity of our truthful acceptance. I explained this in post 46, last paragraph. 'Receiving Jesus' is Calvinistic teaching.

So its not any future act of sin that separates us from God or sends us to hell for We are already separated from God. Its Rejection of Gods Saving Grace, "Christ Jesus". That is the only reason that lands one in hell.

Agree 100%. Now I feel you just need to better understand how one rejects Jesus. We reject Jesus because we love the darkness. Continuing in mortal sin points to loving the darkness more then a venial sinner. Of course a venial sinner can also be sold out to sin. God judges the heart and mind Jer 17:9-11.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Jesus is the light. They reject the light because they love their sin. That is the verdict.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Please try understand that nobody is destined for hell because of sin. I explained this in post 45 second paragraph.

Age of accountability and brain damage. We do not receive Jesus. We accept and He decides to come in or not based on the sincerity of our truthful acceptance. I explained this in post 46, last paragraph. 'Receiving Jesus' is Calvinistic teaching.


Agree 100%. Now I feel you just need to better understand how one rejects Jesus. We reject Jesus because we love the darkness. Continuing in mortal sin points to loving the darkness more then a venial sinner. Of course a venial sinner can also be sold out to sin. God judges the heart and mind Jer 17:9-11.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Jesus is the light. They reject the light because they love their sin. That is the verdict.

Brother KJ,
We may not agree on wording or delivery and that in itself does not even matter.

What is important is that we both are doing what the Father wants.

One way may work well for one of us and another way for the other. So keep on doing what works and may the Father never find us lacking.

Blessings and much prayer and love.
Wired

 

[JoniSteele]

Would y'all like to hear from an Ex-Gay? "By their fruits you will know them." The longer I walk with the Lord and stay in His Word, the more I learn about Him and my love for Him grows more everyday. I don't want to do anything that would make Him ashamed of me. In fact, He gives me the freedom "Not to sin". He has freed me from that bondage. I don't mean that I never sin. I just have no desire to perpetuate a perverted life style.

 

[Sue D.]

Yes, it Would be good to hear from you.