Spiritual Gifts

[Quenton]

Is the spiritual gifts talking about involvement in the church or is it talking about a personal level?

 

[rojoloco]

Personal gifts are always meant for the edification of the Church. That being said, it can also benefit you because of the work you are doing within the church. The Corinthians were confused and desired to use the gifts for selfish gain. They were rebuked for it by Paul. Always seek to edify the Church when using your spiritual gifts.

For instance, I believe mine are:

1) discernment - I have a tendency to have an internal alarm go off whenever I hear false teaching. It is something I can't quite describe. Whenever I hear it, I almost always pipe up and say something in response to it and try to offer a correction. This comes from...

2) word of knowledge - I soak theology up like a sponge. I absolutely LOVE it! In turn, I use this speaking gift to teach others the Truth and offer correction where it is necessary.

I believe God has placed me in the office of a teacher and my goal is to teach whoever will hear.

 

[Boanerges]

Is the spiritual gifts talking about involvement in the church or is it talking about a personal level?

Both my friend.

 

[Quenton]

an example of both would be tongues....

 

[Brother Mike]

1) discernment - I have a tendency to have an internal alarm go off whenever I hear false teaching. It is something I can't quite describe. Whenever I hear it, I almost always pipe up and say something in response to it and try to offer a correction. This comes from...

Everyone has this gift, it's called Judgment.

2) word of knowledge - I soak theology up like a sponge. I absolutely LOVE it! In turn, I use this speaking gift to teach others the Truth and offer correction where it is necessary.

One of the supernatural operations of the Holy Spirit is that you learn more. It's also now a speaking gift. Amazing....

I believe God has placed me in the office of a teacher and my goal is to teach whoever will hear.

Putting the Supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit into fleshly and carnal thinking means you should be teaching????

I love your post Rojoloco, your vastly interesting...

====================================================


Your right, aside from Tongues. Paul's outline for the gifts were given for a Church setting or gathering of people. The gifts can Operate at anytime or anywhere.

Jesus Is Lord

 

[rojoloco]

Everyone has this gift, it's called Judgment.

Completely false. Let's break it down a bit shall we?

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Based on this passage, we see several spiritual gifts being mentioned. They are:

1) word of wisdom
2) word of knowledge
3) faith
4) healing
5) miracles
6) prophecy
7) distinguishing of spirits
8) speaking tongues
9) interpretation of tongues

Going back to your above quote, the gift of distinguishing of spirits is not the same as general discernment. We all have a level of judgment but this is not synonymous with the spiritual gift. One blessed with the spiritual gift has a built in alarm system so to speak. They hear false teaching and it jumps out at them more so than it would the average person. It is most certainly a spiritual gift that is set apart from the typical discernment.

One of the supernatural operations of the Holy Spirit is that you learn more. It's also now a speaking gift. Amazing....

Actually, learning is not a supernatural operation of the Spirit at all. I know plenty of secular people that know more about the Bible than people who have been Christians most of their lives. Some people simply love God but do not have a vast knowledge of the Bible. Many secular people have a vast knowledge but do not love God. The difference is that only Christians can truly have the heart knowledge from the Spirit. Either way, general increase in knowledge is not a Spiritual gift in any way nor does the Bible make this claim.

What it does say is that the word of knowledge is a Spiritual gift. Yes, it is a speaking gift. This is where the "word" comes in at in word of knowledge. One with this gift will not only have a strong capacity to learn but they will also have the strong desire to speak it to others. In fact, I find those with the gift of the word of knowledge are usually also in the position of teaching because the Spirit has gifted them with this ability and desire. Not sure why you would think it is not a speaking gift when the very name of it tells us it is. It is actually one of 3 speaking gifts (the other 2 being the word of wisdom as well as prophecy).

Putting the Supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit into fleshly and carnal thinking means you should be teaching????

I simply let the Bible be the forefront of all authority in teaching. Sola Scriptura!

I love your post Rojoloco, your vastly interesting...

Not sure quite how to take this comment.

 

[rojoloco]

an example of both would be tongues....

Well, a continuationist will tell you this. A cessationist (as well as almost everybody prior to January 1, 1901) would tell you otherwise.

 

[Quenton]

Well, a continuationist will tell you this. A cessationist (as well as almost everybody prior to January 1, 1901) would tell you otherwise.

so I"m guessing you dont believe tongues are for everyone

 

[rojoloco]

so I"m guessing you dont believe tongues are for everyone

I definitely do not believe they are for everyone. In fact, even most continuationists will tell you they are not for everyone. I am actually a cessationist. I believe tongues were for a very specific time period. Even the Old Testament predicts the coming of tongues and tells us it was meant as a sign of judgment on unbelieving Israel. It was meant to show the Jews that they were no longer God's chosen few. This is seen in Acts where the Gentiles are speaking in tongues (a known language that that person had no prior training in) which were to show that the Gentile speaking the language (that he normally would not have known) must have been empowered by God to do it. Considering the Gentiles were seen as lower class in the Jews' eyes, this would have been unheard of and a true sign from God. I fully believe tongues existed only during the apostolic era. My comment about January 1, 1901 is because most of history (with a very few small exceptions) also believed tongues to have ceased at the end of the apostolic era. It wasn't until that date that an experiment with a small group supposedly got them speaking in tongues. They claimed they even had proof but it was unfortunately (and conveniently) lost before they could show anybody. The resurgence of tongues came from that night, the birth of Pentecostalism.

 

[Brother Mike]

No tongues....?? Really

Rojoloco


Brother, would you take your car to your wife's hair and nail place to get fixed???

What would they say to you if you did take your car there to get fixed??

Why they would explain that they have never worked on cars, never even experienced holding a wrench to fix a car. They do tell you that if you stay, you won't get your car fixed, but they can do a pretty good job at cutting your hair...

Now, you have not spoken in tongues, not operated in the real supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, and yet your like this hair and nail girl claiming that they know all about cars, when if fact they never even opened the hood of the trunk.

These hair and nail girls lack something when it comes to cars. They lack knowledge.... but they have enough sense not to tell people that while they get their nails done, and get a good hair cut, that they can also fix someones car while getting their nails painted.

Something you lack here....
There is a condition to have signs follow in your life. It's not as complicated as learning to be a mechanic.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe..........


Now you have discounted all the signs and gifts of the Holy Spirit, Heck you even claim that "MOST" believed this since 1901 or something. I have to come to forums like this to even read such a thing, and I have no idea who "MOST" are. You need to widen you area of study, and find new people to hang with.

So, according to Jesus there is a reason your confused about this. You got to believe something Brother......

Now stop making things complicated for yourself. These signs shall follow those that believe. I start believing these things are available to me, and God does his part and gives me more revelation on the subject. It's real simple.....

So, you can grow and operate in higher levels of the things God has for us, listen to those that know what they are taking about and not the "MANY" who don't..... because those you say who don't are not going to get the car fixed....


Jesus Is Lord

 

[Quenton]

I definitely do not believe they are for everyone. In fact, even most continuationists will tell you they are not for everyone. I am actually a cessationist. I believe tongues were for a very specific time period. Even the Old Testament predicts the coming of tongues and tells us it was meant as a sign of judgment on unbelieving Israel. It was meant to show the Jews that they were no longer God's chosen few. This is seen in Acts where the Gentiles are speaking in tongues (a known language that that person had no prior training in) which were to show that the Gentile speaking the language (that he normally would not have known) must have been empowered by God to do it. Considering the Gentiles were seen as lower class in the Jews' eyes, this would have been unheard of and a true sign from God. I fully believe tongues existed only during the apostolic era. My comment about January 1, 1901 is because most of history (with a very few small exceptions) also believed tongues to have ceased at the end of the apostolic era. It wasn't until that date that an experiment with a small group supposedly got them speaking in tongues. They claimed they even had proof but it was unfortunately (and conveniently) lost before they could show anybody. The resurgence of tongues came from that night, the birth of Pentecostalism.

I'm doing a research paper on tongues for English ...I'll post what I think with it

 

[Brother Mike]

Reasearching Toungues.

Tongues is something Spiritual and you believe. No research needed.. unless you looking at scriptures.

However, ABC did a segment on actual science that many believe prove that Tongues is real....

Speaking in Tongues Medical Study proves Holy Spirit praying


YouTube - Speaking in Tongues Medical Study proves Holy Spirit praying

 

[rojoloco]

Brother, would you take your car to your wife's hair and nail place to get fixed???

What would they say to you if you did take your car there to get fixed??

Why they would explain that they have never worked on cars, never even experienced holding a wrench to fix a car. They do tell you that if you stay, you won't get your car fixed, but they can do a pretty good job at cutting your hair...

Now, you have not spoken in tongues, not operated in the real supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, and yet your like this hair and nail girl claiming that they know all about cars, when if fact they never even opened the hood of the trunk.

These hair and nail girls lack something when it comes to cars. They lack knowledge.... but they have enough sense not to tell people that while they get their nails done, and get a good hair cut, that they can also fix someones car while getting their nails painted.

Your analogy falls short. A stylist may not be able to tell you the ins and out of how a car operates but they can certainly tell you what a car is and what a car isn't. I may not have ever experienced speaking in tongues but Scripture is very clear on what it is and what it isn't. Experience is never a valid litmus test yet it is the one fallback that most continuationists go straight to. I have been told countless times that, since I have never experienced it, I can't possibly understand it. This couldn't be further from the truth.

I have never experienced killing a man but I can certainly tell you what Scripture says about it.

I have never experienced being fully glorified but I can tell you what Scripture says about it.

I never saw Jesus with my own 2 eyes but I can tell you what Scripture says about it.

Furthermore, what if you were to tell a man Jesus was God and he were to say you never saw him with your own 2 eyes or experienced him in the flesh so your claim must be false? With your reasoning, you would not be capable of telling him otherwise because, according to you, one must personally experience it firsthand in order to know it is true. You may have experienced something spiritual but you have never seen him in the flesh so what makes you qualified to speak on the matter?

See how this reasoning can come back to you. It just doesn't hold any solid ground and can shift in whatever direction the person wants it to shift in. It has no absolute truth to it and can be applied relatively to any matter.

Something you lack here....
There is a condition to have signs follow in your life. It's not as complicated as learning to be a mechanic.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe..........

And this is another area where you err. You are forming theology off something that more than likely is not the inspired word of God. The most reliable and oldest manuscripts do not include Mark 16:9-20. Many scholars believe these verses were added to the ending of Mark (by a different scribe later in time) in order to bring closure to it since it ends so abruptly. Most scholars believe you can take about as much away from Mark 16:9-20 as you can from the Apocrypha. They can be a good read but no theology or doctrine should ever be formed from them.

Now you have discounted all the signs and gifts of the Holy Spirit, Heck you even claim that "MOST" believed this since 1901 or something. I have to come to forums like this to even read such a thing, and I have no idea who "MOST" are. You need to widen you area of study, and find new people to hang with.

First of all, I do not discount all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is obvious through my explanation of what God has gifted me with. Secondly, the reason you do not know who the "most" are is because you have not done your research or studied it enough. You have hopped onboard something you "experienced", used a verse that most likely isn't even the inspired Word of God, and ran with it. If you bothered to look into history, the "most" would include almost ell of the early Church Fathers unanimously. In fact, almost every credible writer from the early Church Fathers onward agree that tongues had ceased upon the end of the apostolic era. It wasn't until January 1, 1901 that a small group of people did an experiment to try to "bring it back." Due to the mysticism involved, it caught on like wild fire. The fact of the matter is that Scripture and history are both in agreement that it ceased.

So, according to Jesus there is a reason your confused about this. You got to believe something Brother......

Again, it's not according to Jesus. It is according to some 3rd party scribe who attempted to bring closure to the Gospel of Mark. It is not inspired and should not be used in theology and doctrine.

Now stop making things complicated for yourself. These signs shall follow those that believe. I start believing these things are available to me, and God does his part and gives me more revelation on the subject. It's real simple.....

I've already explained Mark 9:16-20. At this point, it is your life that has become complicated. You must ask yourself if you are going to still use that passage to support your stance or are you going to try to make your stance conform to inspired and infallible Scripture. As of right now, your view on tongues does not fall into this category.

So, you can grow and operate in higher levels of the things God has for us, listen to those that know what they are taking about and not the "MANY" who don't..... because those you say who don't are not going to get the car fixed....

Again, experience is not a valid litmus test. Scripture is the ONLY test. Catholics take their own claims and then twist Scripture to approve of their teaching. What you are doing is no different. However, you have taken it a step further and used Scripture that isn't really even Scripture.

 

[rojoloco]

Tongues is something Spiritual and you believe. No research needed.. unless you looking at scriptures.

However, ABC did a segment on actual science that many believe prove that Tongues is real....

Speaking in Tongues Medical Study proves Holy Spirit praying


YouTube - Speaking in Tongues Medical Study proves Holy Spirit praying

The problem with posting videos such as that is that there are also many videos which have used science to show that it does not exist.

As for that particular video, I'm not sure why you would use that church to promote your views since they are clearly unbiblical. Scripture tell us a few things:

If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;

Yet the people in this video are doing it all at once in one giant orgy of what they claim to be tongues.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;

Yet, he specifically says he has no control over himself. Funny how something supposedly wrought on by the Spirit causes someone to lose control of themselves when Scripture tells us the fruit of the Spirit IS self control.

I actually saw this video when it came out years ago. What I got from the video is that science showed they aren't actually speaking any kind of real language and that it was only a trance-like state with gibberish. The funny part is that even the church goers agreed with this. They admitted they have no control over what they are doing yet then claimed it was how the Spirit operates. This is about as unbiblical as it comes, as shown above.

 

[rojoloco]

I'm doing a research paper on tongues for English ...I'll post what I think with it

I've got some stuff I can let you read as well if you are interested.

 

[Brother Mike]

amazing

I am fully aware of man's opinion that Mark 16 should not be there. Funny how God was not able to correct that.. Huh????

Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.


Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

As for that particular video, I'm not sure why you would use that church to promote your views since they are clearly unbiblical. Scripture tell us a few things:

I have no clue about that Church..... I just found it interesting that ABC was not slamming the bible that time.....

and they did not say the Holy Spirit takes over, they said they have no control over the Words they speak, else it would be out of our own thinking. We still have a choice to speak or not, but we don't make the words up.

Now you said the analogy was all messed up.... You can look in the Word for yourself and find out about killing someone though you have not done it.

So I am to believe that you have come to all these conclusions on your own, just you and the bible..... I hardly think so....

As I said, it would be wise to listen to those that know and do speak in tongues.. not the ones that don't..

Jesus Is Lord

 

[rojoloco]

I am fully aware of man's opinion that Mark 16 should not be there. Funny how God was not able to correct that.. Huh????

We also have things such as The Message which do not hold any real value yet people still use it as their daily Bible. Funny how God didn't stop such a weak paraphrase (as well as countless other false translations such as the New World Translation) from coming out huh? Just because it is there doesn't mean it is a credit against God's power.

Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

People believe they can fly while on drugs and then fall to their death. It happens all the time. Just because one believes something does not mean it can happen. That is a very weak interpretation of that passage. Just as the passage that speaks of moving a mountain is not literally saying we can move giant land masses if only we believe we can.

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

The Greek here actually includes the definite article the. This means it is possibly talking about the faith. If this is the case, it simply means one is to prophesy in accordance with the teaching of the apostles. Considering prophecy is really just a proclamation of the Word of God (albeit, a special gifting and more than is common), this would make perfect sense. Even if it is speaking of a personal amount of something, it would not mean one is to ask for anything if only he believes. It means he is only to prophesy inasmuch as his faith and knowledge of the Word allow him to do so.

I have no clue about that Church..... I just found it interesting that ABC was not slamming the bible that time.....

Your point was that science appears to be agreeing with tongues. My point was that the entire clip was a wash because it didn't even have anything stable to be its constant. Its foundation was an unbiblical church practicing things which are clearly contrary to Scripture (i.e. more than one person at a time as well as an admitted loss of control).

and they did not say the Holy Spirit takes over, they said they have no control over the Words they speak, else it would be out of our own thinking. We still have a choice to speak or not, but we don't make the words up.

Listen to it again, they clearly said they had no control over it. Even what you are saying is unbiblical. In the end, they are words leaving your mouth. If you have no control over what it is you are saying, you have no control over yourself. If you have no control over yourself, you are not practicing the things of the Spirit because the very fruit of the Spirit is self control.

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also;

Praying/speaking in tongues with no control over what is being said and no knowledge of what is being said is unfruitful and is not to be done.

Now you said the analogy was all messed up.... You can look in the Word for yourself and find out about killing someone though you have not done it.

As I can look in the Word to find out all about tongues though I have not spoken in it. You just proved my point for me. Experience doesn't mean jack. It is not a valid litmus test.

So I am to believe that you have come to all these conclusions on your own, just you and the bible..... I hardly think so....

Is this a claim of self righteousness? Dare anybody come to any conclusion outside what you alone have come to? Am I to suppose you don't believe it going to church? Am I to suppose you do not believe in listening to sermons or participating in group Bible studies? Am I to suppose you do not believe in reading books of others far more wise than you? Am I to suppose you have never been mentored by anybody spiritually? Unless you answer in the affirmative to every single one of those, your point is moot.

As I said, it would be wise to listen to those that know and do speak in tongues.. not the ones that don't..

Why would I do that? Nobody truly speaks in the spiritual gift of tongues nor have they since the end of the apostolic era. It has ceased and Scripture affirms this as does history. Every instance of it existing nowadays is either gibberish in someone's head or is a real power being counterfeited by the Enemy.

BTW, linguistics have actually shown how what is claimed to be tongues these days cannot be a valid language due to the fact that there is no standard nor are there enough unique sounds to form a language. This means one is compelled to go outside the pages of Scripture and fabricate some way to make it fit.

 

[Brother Mike]

Tongues...

Man Brother..... why complicate things???

There are not enough sounds.. really. We speak mysteries to God, and someone has the nerve to say that what they hear can't be enough sounds???

As if every sound should mean the same thing?

Really??

There is much more to God, and I wish I could get that across here...

Prophecy?? God actually speaking in a know language...... To know things that you could not have possible known... These are supernatural in operation....

I know you want this all to make sense... but God is a supernatural God and created things beyond our understanding....

If you could just stop with all that nonsense..... and listen.... it would bless you.... there is far more to your walk with God.... don't miss it...

rojoloco, You have a answer for every single scripture. You put it in a natural way that can be understood by the heathen.... We are not heathen's but children of God born out of this the World.......

Don't get to Jesus Brother and have to give a account......Pay attention now......

Jesus Is Lord....

 

[rojoloco]

Man Brother..... why complicate things???

Complicate things? I'm just using the Word in front of me. You are using something extrabiblical to justify an experience. I'd say it is you who is complicating things.

Personal feelings and experience never validate things. Jeremiah was clear on this when he said the heart is deceitful above all else. I have been so mad at someone in the past that even an apology from them sounded like it was only half-hearted and being said to sound holier than thou since they did it before me. However, hindsight being what it is, I eventually came to realize it was an authentic apology. It was just that, in the moment, my mind and heart twisted reality. In reality, there was an apology. In my own experience, it was an attempt to fuel the fire. Things are not always what they seem despite however real they may appear to us.

There are not enough sounds.. really. We speak mysteries to God, and someone has the nerve to say that what they hear can't be enough sounds???

As if every sound should mean the same thing?

Really??

No, not really. Nobody ever said all sounds mean the same thing. Not even sure where this came from. However, linguistics is a real thing. All languages are comprised of at least a certain number of sounds, some more than others. Look into it a bit. Studies have shown the modern "tongues" to be nothing more than repetition of the same sounds.

Jesus actually condemns the practice.

And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

The Greek word battologeo literally means to speak in random sounds that don't actually have a meaning but rather, just sounds like a sound. In English, this would be an onomatopoeia. It would be like you praying in onomatopoeia's all day long. This was a practice of the pagans and it was being condemned by Jesus. Paul then went on to rebuke the Corinthians for incorporating this pagan practice into their Christian lives.

There is much more to God, and I wish I could get that across here...

There are many mysteries of God that we are not privy to. It's a fact of life.

Prophecy?? God actually speaking in a know language...... To know things that you could not have possible known... These are supernatural in operation....

I know you want this all to make sense... but God is a supernatural God and created things beyond our understanding....

I am all for God being supernatural but I think you have crossed the line into mysticism. Instead of embracing what has been revealed to us and what is solid, you have embraced what has not been revealed to us and then validate it by using personal experience (as if that is absolute and unchanging) and an admitted ignorance. You claim God has not revealed something to us in His Word yet your experience proves it as valid.

I say God has revealed EXACTLY what tongues are in His Word. It was an Earthly language that was previously unknown to the speaker. One with the gift of speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10) had this gift. One with the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10) had the gift of translating it though could not speak it (however, one could easily be gifted with both if God decided to gift the person (1 Corinthians 12:11) in that manner). Tongues were a sign (1 Corinthians 14:22) of judgment to unbelieving <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region> (Deuteronomy 28:49, Jeremiah 5:15) that the Gentiles were going to be grafted in (Romans 11:17). Tongues were not meant to be everlasting (1 Corinthians 13:8). In fact, they will leave/left before knowledge and prophecy as knowledge/prophecy (1 Corinthians 13:8-10). Vain repetition and babbling was condemned by Jesus Himself (Matthew 5:7) and Scripture shows tongues to be a valid Earthly language (Acts 2:6-8). Without interpretation, tongues is unedifying (1 Corinthians 14:6) because there is no renewing of the mind (Romans 12:2) because the mind becomes unfruitful (1 Corinthians 14:14-15). The Spirit will never cause us to be unfruitful. If we are truly praying in the Spirit, we will be praying with the mind as well (1 Corinthians 14:15) and fruit will follow (Galatians 5:22-23).

If you could just stop with all that nonsense..... and listen.... it would bless you.... there is far more to your walk with God.... don't miss it...

Hey, my viewpoint is straight from Scripture and has not been influenced by my extrabiblical experiences. Instead, I discern my experiences based on the Word of God. To do anything else or to claim there is something more is straight from the gnostic textbook.

rojoloco, You have a answer for every single scripture. You put it in a natural way that can be understood by the heathen.... We are not heathen's but children of God born out of this the World.......

I most certainly do not have an answer for every single Scripture but I do have a desire to learn as much as I can. I also have a desire to teach others. Part of teaching is putting it in a way that people can understand. The ability to do so is a gift from God for, without it, even I would not understand it. Again, your comment sounds very gnostic in nature.

Don't get to Jesus Brother and have to give a account......Pay attention now......

This concerns me even more than your other comments. It appears that you place tongues in a lofty position (as did the Corinthians). It also appears you are condemning those who are cessationists by saying we will have to give a negative account to the Lord. John let it be known that we can know that we have eternal life in Christ alone and do not require any extra gnostic teachings. Not saying for sure that you are are teaching gnosticism but it sounds awfully close to it. I have to say that I have no fear of where I am going when I die. I have an Advocate with the Father and it is my desire to serve Him faithfully in the exegetical teaching of His Holy Word.