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"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"

Loyal
For those who are not familiar with the Jewish Historian “Flavius Josephus” check out his “Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades”.
Just read half way down, for non long readers will be sufficient to see the picture how “Josephus” describe “hades” and its entry and the bosom of Abraham. It has left a stamp upon my mind these 40 plus years of “Hades”
 
Moderator
Staff Member
@PloughBoy

Greetings,

this is probably a little off topic but i wanted to share this little tract with you as i think you will find it interesting.
Historically it appears to have some integrity. I could be wrong but see what you think




Bless you ....><>

here is downloadable and onscreen readable black and white version
 
Active
For those who are not familiar with the Jewish Historian “Flavius Josephus” check out his “Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades”.
Just read half way down, for non long readers will be sufficient to see the picture how “Josephus” describe “hades” and its entry and the bosom of Abraham. It has left a stamp upon my mind these 40 plus years of “Hades”
The key words in the discourse are "we believe". So, he's not stating it as fact, but rather as something he believes.

It's interesting also that he gives such a vivid picture of Hades when the Bible doesn't. It's also interesting that a good bit of what he says aligns with Greek phiosophy.

One has to wonder why he believes this when Paul tells us clearly that if there is no resurrection those who had died in Christ had perished. How can Paul say that if what Josephus said is true?
 
Loyal
He was a Jewish Historian, that even The Romans Respected as a reliable historian to record history. He givens us also the history how the “Pharisees and the Sadducees” and the Jewish Wars. A gap Of history between the Old Testament and New Testament. I had to study his book years ago . I had to buy another copy about 10 years ago. Great addition to ones library especially if one lives in a community that they have close contact with Jewish people and also want a better reliable understanding of the culture of their bible especially the New Testament era. I had to study him in “Bible college”. “Biblical History”.

PS. Josephus was not a “Christian”. He was a “Historian “ he recorded history. Like your history books. So he was just paraphrasing about Hades of what had been written. That’s all. He read “Scripture “ as well.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

if we are talking about the same man, it has been suggested that he had 'interests' and that those 'interests' tainted some of his accounts. Self preservation was one of those interests, if i remember correctly. [he also was not a believer but, like many today, had his roots in a more culturual upbringing form of religion, that being for him, Judaism {of the day... which was, in itself rather messed up as were the common allegiances both internal and external for or against one another (including towards the roman rule of the day - which was always changing) for much the same reason that such things have always happened, that being for satisfying the flesh, the carnal mind and vanity, both of the spirit and the ego} ]
Not too dissimilar to what we might get today with reporters/journalists, etc, who want to keep their job and then some, who thrive on (are paid to?) dish out 'information' that is given for intent, rather than because it is totally true.

I know i would not really want to be in his shoes, apart from the fact that they probably wouldn't fit. I can't say most of us would want to swap places with anyone back then. It was a very messy time for all, the Romans also, for whom this 'historian' 'worked' and had to keep happy/amused/appeased.

A lot of the ill treatment of the masses was somewhat due to the crumbling financial situation the empire was facing, through over spending and bad choices. It was a dog eat dog world and Jewish folk were caught up in it, whether they wanted to be or not [that in itself may well be brought out through prophecy given beforehand].
Being a historian had it's price, as what people were conveyed was vital to the security of state and then added to that was the megalomaniac tendencies of some of the rulers both high up and down through the masses, a lot having to answer to the 'higher' authorities, almost similar to the recent communist style terror that kept seeing 'staff' replaced out of power struggles and general purging of any that might either know too much or be a slight risk to one's own position. People liked the idea of certain things to be recorded a certain way and other things to be left out, please (or else!).

Having said all that [written it], the historian in question does need to be read with those things in mind. While many like to quote the man, they often do so to support a particular line of what they are trying to persuade others to believe, as if the Scripture is not enough with the Spirit bearing witness.


Bless you ....><>
 
Active
He was a Jewish Historian, that even The Romans Respected as a reliable historian to record history. He givens us also the history how the “Pharisees and the Sadducees” and the Jewish Wars. A gap Of history between the Old Testament and New Testament. I had to study his book years ago . I had to buy another copy about 10 years ago. Great addition to ones library especially if one lives in a community that they have close contact with Jewish people and also want a better reliable understanding of the culture of their bible especially the New Testament era. I had to study him in “Bible college”. “Biblical History”.

PS. Josephus was not a “Christian”. He was a “Historian “ he recorded history. Like your history books. So he was just paraphrasing about Hades of what had been written. That’s all. He read “Scripture “ as well.
I'm familiar with Josephus and his works. My point was that when you say, "we believe" you're stating an opinion. Whether that opinion is right or wrong is another question. His description of Hades goes beyond what we find in Scripture, but fits what we find in Greek philosophy. We don't find anything in Scripture that talks about Hades being a place of judgment. What many don't realize is that Plato's doctrines were well established during New Testament times and were popular among the Greeks. It's not hard to understand how someone who believes that they are a spirit, trapped in a flesh body, looking to escape into the heavens, would see the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man as an actual event. They come to the text already believing that the dead are alive in another form. That's why it is of the utmost importance that we get our understanding of Hades from the Scriptures rather than the prevailing culture. As I said, the apostle Paul doesn't allow for this supposed existence as a disembodied being. He stated that if there is no resurrection, those who had died in Christ had perished. He doesn't allow for them to be somewhere else. It's resurrection or perished, that's all he gives. If we believe what he said then there is no option for an existence as a disembodied being after death. It's just not there.
 
Loyal
Remember “Alexander the Great” brought us or is the highway that gave the Greek culture and language and sciences that produce the Koine Greek New Testament and schools of biblical thoughts. That gave the Romans the skills of government and to also build “The Roman Road” that started Carrying the “Word of God” through out the World.
Is that funny how God in His infinite wisdom was using all those kingdoms and “Persia” to make preparations to march His Word through out the World. And in these last days God has created a pathway through the “Airways” . Is not that something. And most people think, it is all about “technology” “Greek-ology” “Roman-ology”, “build-ology”, and “Happy-ology”. But it is all about “Theology” and not “Religion-ology”.
 
Loyal
Sorry if I gave the impression that the historian Josephus is use for biblical fact or biblical truth. That was not my intention. I just was speaking on what he recorded.

just like the historian who said, that “George Washington” was the 1st president of the USA. Do I trust that person who wrote that No! How do I know it is the truth? I was not there! Do I know if Abraham Lincoln was the 16 president of the USA.? No, I was not there.

Just because it is in a history book does not make it true? No! Only thing I can say, it is written in a history book. That is how I look at history, I look at history as it is written in a history book , I do not look as if it is truth.

So I hope that is cleared up. A history book is no more than a history book. I am from the old school, when you went to the library and wanted to know something about any kind of history, you went to the history department in the library. Most likely a room with only books about every type of history you wanted to know about. And if you had a history test about something in school, you have to do a reliable research with a reliable source with a reliable documentation. Then you receive a grade on your research. You have 100’s of students sometimes doing the same assignment. Where do you thing they are going to get their reliable research information? With documentation? Do you think that, we all are most likely to be in a agreement, since we all have a reliable source with reliable documentations? Most likely. That is why it is called research from a reliable source with reliable documentations.
Josephus is a reliable historian.
And not a Theologian. That is documented. So, you read him in that matter only. And in the same matter as men wrote in that era.:cool:
 
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