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Sinless Perfection And The Truth That Sets You Free

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A person who is double minded in his directions is committing sin. As the verse reads, it "ought not to be", but James wrote the words because it was and is occurring in people. The double mindedness means that both the old man and the new man are alive in the person.

That makes no sense, unless you believe there are two, walking around in one vessel.
The death of the old man is complete at one's baptism into Christ's death, burial, and one is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

As a person grows, if he grows the old man is being put to death. That is to say he is killing those beasts of his that are still working to regain the dominion that they had before the person met the Master.
That is a false doctrine.
A doctrine of those who refuse to submit to God.
Along with 'gradual sanctification' and 'sin after rebirth', they deny the power of God in the repentant's life.
 
Loyal Member
That makes no sense, unless you believe there are two, walking around in one vessel.
The death of the old man is complete at one's baptism into Christ's death, burial, and one is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

I believe there are two, one old who needs to be put to death and one new who is to put the old one to death.

That is a false doctrine.
A doctrine of those who refuse to submit to God.
Along with 'gradual sanctification' and 'sin after rebirth', they deny the power of God in the repentant's life.
Is it false? I believe that by the power of God a person need not sin, but so long as he has his own will he can still choose to sin again. He should not and if he trusts God he will not, but people do not always do what they should, do they?
 
Loyal Member
I believe there are two, one old who needs to be put to death and one new who is to put the old one to death.

Got a scripture for that?
Romans 6 tells us how the old man is killed..." Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:3-6)

Is it false? I believe that by the power of God a person need not sin, but so long as he has his own will he can still choose to sin again. He should not and if he trusts God he will not, but people do not always do what they should, do they?
It is false.
Seeing as I have already supplied the appropriate scripture that describes the death of the old man, instantly, (Rom 6:3-6), the doctrine you assert is obviously not true.
If they want to call themselves 'Christians', they do what they should.
 
Loyal Member
Got a scripture for that?
Romans 6 tells us how the old man is killed..." Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:3-6)

You have provided the verses yourself. If you have already been buried and raised and have never quenched the Spirit in you and will never quench it again then God will be ready to say to you at any time, "well done thou good and faithful servant". But when you speak of yourself remember also what Job said:

"If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life." Job 9:20-21

What often, or even usually, happens is a person overcomes as God desires but then he allows himself to dwell on what "he" has done and instead of giving God always the glory his head becomes swollen in pride... and back down he goes.

The good thing is that God is aware of even this in us and therefore it is also written:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1

It is false.
Seeing as I have already supplied the appropriate scripture that describes the death of the old man, instantly, (Rom 6:3-6), the doctrine you assert is obviously not true.
If they want to call themselves 'Christians', they do what they should.

You are defining an overcomer and all of us should strive toward the goal of overcoming all things which lie between us and God. Calling himself a Christian is not a wrong thing if a person is really moving toward God. Every disciple of Christ is moving toward God. If he is not, he needs to surrender to God again and follow the lead of the Holy Ghost closely one more time. Will God not provide the necessary help to a heart that is hungry and thirsty for His righteousness?

You need to remember that you are not the only one who is seeking the face of God. You are not the only one who is walking toward Him. Who has arrived to the end of the highway of holiness?
 
Loyal Member
You have provided the verses yourself.
I hope you agree with God's word and can see that there are not 'two of us' in one vessel.

If you have already been buried and raised and have never quenched the Spirit in you and will never quench it again then God will be ready to say to you at any time, "well done thou good and faithful servant".
But when you speak of yourself remember also what Job said:
"If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life." Job 9:20-21
[/QUOTE]
I didn't need to, as you did

What often, or even usually, happens is a person overcomes as God desires but then he allows himself to dwell on what "he" has done and instead of giving God always the glory his head becomes swollen in pride... and back down he goes.
Have you met a lot of people who say they obey God 100% of the time?

The good thing is that God is aware of even this in us and therefore it is also written:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1
Yes, the Advocate is there for all who will turn from the darkness and unto the Light.
Even those who say they already have, but manifest behavior that nullifies the claim.

You are defining an overcomer, and all of us should strive toward the goal of overcoming all things which lie between us and God. Calling himself a Christian is not a wrong thing if a person is really moving toward God. Every disciple of Christ is moving toward God. If he is not, he needs to surrender to God again and follow the lead of the Holy Ghost closely one more time. Will God not provide the necessary help to a heart that is hungry and thirsty for His righteousness?
Surrendering 'again' manifests the prior surrender was a lie.
Surrender once, and get doing what God commands.

You need to remember that you are not the only one who is seeking the
face of God. You are not the only one who is walking toward Him. Who has arrived to the end of the highway of holiness?
I am just a man who is offering an exit ramp from the road to destruction.
The choice to take the narrow path is in the hands of the
drivers.
 
Loyal Member
I hope you agree with God's word and can see that there are not 'two of us' in one vessel.

I didn't need to, as you did

Have you met a lot of people who say they obey God 100% of the time?

Yes, the Advocate is there for all who will turn from the darkness and unto the Light.
Even those who say they already have, but manifest behavior that nullifies the claim.


Surrendering 'again' manifests the prior surrender was a lie.
Surrender once, and get doing what God commands.


I am just a man who is offering an exit ramp from the road to destruction.
The choice to take the narrow path is in the hands of the drivers.
I think that we are in agreement on most things. We should not be double minded, but many who are Christians do still feed the old man keeping him alive and in the fight within.

Just remember that even if you are right as to how a person is to walk with God, you cannot force feed anyone. Only the new man can kill the old man and even he is hindered in that when a person quenches the Holy Spirit in him and continues to eat the wrong things.
 
Loyal Member
I think that we are in agreement on most things. We should not be double minded, but many who are Christians do still feed the old man keeping him alive and in the fight within.

They have no claim to the name of Christ.


Just remember that even if you are right as to how a person is to walk with God, you cannot force feed anyone. Only the new man can kill the old man and even he is hindered in that when a person quenches the Holy Spirit in him and continues to eat the wrong things.
"If I am right"?
Don't WE agree that obedience to God is demanded by God?
Only once was the gift of the Holy Ghost given before baptism into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (so we could "walk in newness of life". Rom 6:3-6)
That was in the case of Cornelius the centurion.
No servant of sin has the Holy Spirit.
 
Loyal Member
They have no claim to the name of Christ.

What does it mean to be in His name? Perhaps most who walk with God at all move in and out as the Israelites went in and out of the tabernacle to offer sacrifices repeatedly. No, it need not be and now should not be but you say they have nothing, and that is a judgment on your part which, I believe, is not yours to make. There is still a time to speak and a time to remain silent. Jesus always knew when, but I think you are missing something on at least that point. I may be wrong about you, but the decision on that is also in God's hands.


"If I am right"?
I also believe that I am right as do the other members of this forum even though we may all disagree. God is the only One who is always right on every point. Right or wrong you still need to learn when to speak and when to remain silent.

Don't WE agree that obedience to God is demanded by God?
Only once was the gift of the Holy Ghost given before baptism into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (so we could "walk in newness of life". Rom 6:3-6)
That was in the case of Cornelius the centurion.
No servant of sin has the Holy Spirit.
God is not subject to mathematics, is He? We do not live by knowledge, do we? Do we not live by faith which is as Apostle Paul wrote: "...the substance things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

But your vision seemingly according to your statements is already beyond "seeing through a glass darkly". If it really is, there is no reason to argue the point. When people questioned Jesus' authority He refused to give them a sign other than the sign of Jonah. He did not argue with them about it or attempt to prove them wrong and himself right.
 
Loyal Member
What does it mean to be in His name?

It means "to be like Him".

Perhaps most who walk with God at all move in and out as the Israelites went in and out of the tabernacle to offer sacrifices repeatedly.
Perhaps not.
Lovers of God don't cast Him off to love other...gods...and then come back to start the sequence all over again.

No, it need not be and now should not be but you say they have nothing, and that is a judgment on your part which, I believe, is not yours to make. There is still a time to speak and a time to remain silent. Jesus always knew when, but I think you are missing something on at least that point. I may be wrong about you, but the decision on that is also in God's hands.
I prefer not to let the strugglers remain in the darkness.



When people questioned Jesus' authority He refused to give them a sign other than the sign of Jonah. He did not argue with them about it or attempt to prove them wrong and himself right.

The only sign any of us can offer is our adherence to God.
I pray that those who advocate, or accommodate disobedience, will eventually be drawn to the light.
To the glory of God!
 
Loyal Member
It means "to be like Him".

Agreed! How like Him can we become? For God there is certainly no limit.
Perhaps not.
Lovers of God don't cast Him off to love other...gods...and then come back to start the sequence all over again.

You speak against the cold as well as against the lukewarm and so it should be for each one of us, but some people are struggling to always give all of the glory and all of their obedience to God. This is double mindedness and needs to be overcome, but some people may be still working on these things as led by the Holy Spirit.

What was it that Job is called in verse 1 of chapter 1? "Perfect", yet, it was still possible for him to grow and as he did he also stumbled at times. Sometimes he erred in thinking that the integrity was his rather than God's...

"God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me." Job 27:5

How close are to being like God? How close can we come to being like God?


I prefer not to let the strugglers remain in the darkness.
This is not an evil preference, but should you be telling people that they have nothing good, when they really do have something? Most every person on this forum has something good. Likely they would not remain on the forum or in any church with a measure of God's truth otherwise. What they want, if their hearts are right, is more Good. Since there is none good but One, that would mean that they want more of God.

"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." Luke 9:49-50


The only sign any of us can offer is our adherence to God.
I pray that those who advocate, or accommodate disobedience, will eventually be drawn to the light.
To the glory of God!
Give God the glory!
 
Loyal Member
Agreed! How like Him can we become? For God there is certainly no limit.
Yes, we can be exactly as God planned us to be in the beginning.

You speak against the cold as well as against the lukewarm and so it should be for each one of us, but some people are struggling to always give all of the glory and all of their obedience to God. This is double mindedness and needs to be overcome, but some people may be still working on these things as led by the Holy Spirit.
How do you imagine the final judgement will go for the "struggling"?
Does it not behoove us to tell them there is a way out of the darkness?
A say to put the struggles in the past?
We can't say..."ahhh, at least you are trying."
That is abetting unrighteousness.
As Yoda said..."No try...DO".

What was it that Job is called in verse 1 of chapter 1? "Perfect", yet, it was still possible for him to grow and as he did he also stumbled at times. Sometimes he erred in thinking that the integrity was his rather than God's...
Learning is not synonymous with sinful.


How close are (sic) to being like God? How close can we come to being like God?
It is written..."It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" (Matt 10:25)
Be like your Lord.



This is not an evil preference, but should you be telling people that they have nothing good, when they really do have something? Most every person on this forum has something good. Likely they would not remain on the forum or in any church with a measure of God's truth otherwise. What they want, if their hearts are right, is more Good. Since there is none good but One, that would mean that they want more of God.
If they want "more Good" they will quit fighting against me.
I pray that some here actually want to be as God wills them to be.
And I pray that the reason I am here is to provide the solace and comfort of a new, different perspective of Godliness.
God provides for those who seek Him.
I hope I am part of that "provision".


"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." Luke 9:49-50
Do you think that if that man were defending sinfulness he would have had any part of Christ?
Sinners are against God. (Matt 6:24)

Thankfully God has provided us the way to be free of service to sin. (John 8:32-34)


 
Loyal Member

How do you imagine the final judgement will go for the "struggling"?
Does it not behoove us to tell them there is a way out of the darkness?
A say to put the struggles in the past?
We can't say..."ahhh, at least you are trying."
That is abetting unrighteousness.
As Yoda said..."No try...DO".

The only way to "do" it always God's way is to always be led by the Holy Spirit. People still sin after receiving the Holy Spirit because they have not allowed... so far … to allow the Holy Spirit to always lead them. They still have their own will and choose at times to follow it instead of the Holy Spirit. Again you speak of the one who has already overcome all obstacles standing between him and God. So go ahead and teach the road to being an overcomer but be slow to criticize so roughly. Tell the truth but sometimes hold your tongue. The Holy Spirit will direct you in this as well.

Learning is not synonymous with sinful.

No it is not, but sometimes we will stumble and yes sin as we go because we took our eyes off of the Lord for just a bit longer. We still have our own will. It is our own will that must be overcome in order to never sin again. The Holy Spirit can do this... when not quenched.

It is written..."It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" (Matt 10:25)
Be like your Lord.

Yes, be like Him!


If they want "more Good" they will quit fighting against me.
I pray that some here actually want to be as God wills them to be.
And I pray that the reason I am here is to provide the solace and comfort of a new, different perspective of Godliness.
God provides for those who seek Him.
I hope I am part of that "provision".
It really does take two to fight. You can work a good work here for God, but simply speak your peace about what a person needs to do... IF he is interested... and then hold your peace. If he is only interested in winning a debate, back away instead of heading in that same direction. Remember again that ONLY God gives any real increase to anyone.


Do you think that if that man were defending sinfulness he would have had any part of Christ?
Sinners are against God. (Matt 6:24)

Sin is against God, but consider the harlot in these verses:


"And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country.
And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:
And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: whither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them.
But she had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof.
And the men pursued after them the way to Jordan unto the fords: and as soon as they which pursued after them were gone out, they shut the gate.
And before they were laid down, she came up unto them upon the roof;
And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you." Joshua 2:3-9


This lady was a harlot and a liar according to what is written yet she is given a favorable coverage because of her faith...

"By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." Heb 11:31

We might say that her circumstances were special but what I see is that God sees her heart and she is treated accordingly. God is not bound by the letter but by the Spirit. This is why He is the final judge rather than any one of us. Remember that without regard to OT or NT, old covenant or new covenant, God had never changed.

Thankfully God has provided us the way to be free of service to sin. (John 8:32-34)
God has provided us the Way, but what does it require for any one of us to walk in it? Without the Holy Spirit to guide us who can? Not knowing the hearts of all the others around us, how quickly should we be to say a person is missing it, because he does not seem to be doing what we are doing or what we believe he should be doing.
 
Loyal Member
  • Do you think that if that man were defending sinfulness he would have had any part of Christ? Sinners are against God. (Matt 6:24)
  • Thankfully God has provided us the way to be free of service to sin. (John 8:32-34)
  • No one here is defending sin, you are the only one bringing that up. JUST like God, we hate the sin but love the sinner! We love you!
  • The sin that is at issue is willful or deliberate or one who practices sin. That the Bible refers to:
  • John 8: 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
  • Hebrews 10:26 (KJV) 26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
  • Hebrews 10:26 (NIV) 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
  • None of us sin deliberately, willfully or practice it....but in some way we might sin.
  • When we die and go to Heaven...we don't make it there because we are sinless, we make it there because Jesus is inside us!
  • When you make it to Heaven, I suppose ( unlike the rest of us), you will make it there completely sinless and with Jesus inside you. If that does happen, you will be one unique individual.... perfect as Jesus....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Moderator
Staff member
Greetings,

?why the antagonism.... strange love
-------------------
what is this 'go to heaven'?
---------------
if one would explain the need for repentance to an un-believer, especially in order that they might be saved, what would be said regarding repentance?
Is the need and reason for repentance different for those who profess to be Christian? If so, how so and who says so?


a thought or two to consider.

post in peace


Bless you ....><>
 
Moderator
Staff member
If Thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

But there is forgiveness with Thee, that Thou mayest be feared.

Psalm 130:3-4
 
Moderator
Staff member
Greetings,

.....So when you @Br. Bear , get to .... Heaven.
...did you get there because you were perfect or because Jesus was on you?
thank you for you reply.

The question is more, what is 'go to heaven'? Where does that come from? Is it even Scriptural?
We can use these terms but are they 'terms of engagement' when discussing Scripture in such fine detail as we all sometimes do?

Where do we get the notion of 'going to heaven'?

Perhaps in pulling that apart rather than each other's testimony we can all grow in grace a bit stronger and begin to enjoy the fruit of the labour of God's hand in sending His beloved Son to be an atonement for the sins of the world?

Post in Peace,


Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal Member
he question is more, what is 'go to heaven'? Where does that come from? Is it even Scriptural?
We can use these terms but are they 'terms of engagement' when discussing Scripture in such fine detail as we all sometimes do?
  • You must be kidding!? God, Jesus, the Bible and TJ is all about being saved and going to Heaven.
  • Just one of many : Philippians 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the LORD Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Where do we get the notion of 'going to heaven'?
I am speechless and you are a Moderator?

Why didn't you answer my previous Question?: When you go to Heaven did you get there because you were perfect or because Jesus was on you?
 
Moderator
Staff member
Greetings,

thank you for replying.
I didn't realise my post would get you upset. That was not my intention. Please forgive me if i have upset you?

[I am not sure what being a Moderator has to do with my question and your answer] Being speechless can be a good thing sometimes.

I suppose I wanted to understand what you meant by....
as what you consider 'when you go to heaven' might be different from what i think it might mean and what others think. I don't think i was being unreasonable.
How long have you been a member? After some years of reading thousands of posts by hundreds of members one gets all sort of things presented and things like 'heaven' 'go to heaven' and 'when we/you go to heaven' come in different sizes and flavours and styles, so to speak.

Please don't livid with me... I am only a moderator, after all.

This thread is in Bible Forums and from what i have seen, there are lot's of varied thoughts and ideas and even convictions about as many topics here at TalkJesus and so to ask a Bible related question as i did was/is not out of the ordinary.

I see you answered it, though, so thank you.

I also see you're not a JW.


I shall do what i can to answer you, if you still want me to, as soon as i am able.

in a nutshell, both.


Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal Member
I didn't realise my post would get you upset.
How do you define upset?....because I remain astonished at some of your replies.
as what you consider 'when you go to heaven' might be different from what i think it might mean and what others think. I don't think i was being unreasonable.
  • I have had no idea but I am starting to get one!
  • Do you believe that the Bible is inerrant word of God?
  • For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
  • My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
    John 14:2
  • My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
    John 14:2
  • But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Philippians 3:20
  • Whom have I in heaven but you?
    And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
    Psalm 73:25 |
  • The heavens declare the glory of God;the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
    Day after day they pour forth speech night after night they reveal knowledge.
    Psalm 19:1-2
  • Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for
  • yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
    Matthew 6:19-20
  • Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
    Matthew 19:14 |
  • There is a time for everything,and a season for every activity under the heavens.
    Ecclesiastes 3:1
  • Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.
    Jeremiah 32:17 |
  • In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
    Genesis 1:1-2
  • There are many more!!

I also see you're not a JW.
I can only assume that is a Jehovah Witness...... What gives you this awesome insight?
 
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