Sin is tied to free will

[KingJ]

Again, the argument is not moot. Adam did sin and as a result we are born sinners. Thus we sin. You can 'if' all day long but that is how it occurred. It doesn't matter if anyone else would have done better or not. The human race fell in one man due to his one sin. Death is death. It is not banishment from the garden. They died before they were banished. They died spiritually immediately, and death now worked in them and would eventually physically kill them. Your point of death being banishment from the garden is another example of your judgement being contrary to Scripture.

They did not die. If you are referring to aging, I think not either. God never planned for a flesh (which Adam had before and after eating the fruit) to live forever. Adam's clock was ticking from the day he was created. God did not make him spirit first like an angel. He made him in flesh. Hence death, was excommunication. You are adding to scripture. Just look at the facts. Eat fruit = aware of nudity = God clothed them = God told them to leave and what to expect = they left and came to earth as we know it. I don't see death. I don't see lake of fire. I don't see wicked God. I only see excommunication and read that God explains this / words this as ''death / die''.

(Gen. 3:22) says nothing of the sort concerning your flawed judgement. Your judgement is flawed because you are looking at it through the world's goodness and not the goodness of God.

If God operated at a different level of good and evil, then He would not have said in Gen 3:22 that we are now, 'like Him'. Your argument is just moving the goal posts. "''We cannot grasp God, we must just believe and trust He is good, even though my interpretation implies He is terribly wicked, but I am sure in some special way He is not, I just hope I never get interrogated by a smart god basher'''.

God destroyed the whole world in the flood save Noah and His family. Millions of men, women, and children died as a result. That was a 'good' act of God. Wasn't it?

Yes it was good. God changes society when there is too much corruption and wickedness. He wants a balance of good and evil. Otherwise the righteous are tested beyond their ability and children have no hope. So God brings change whenever the wicked are extremely wicked and in the clear majority.

What must also be mentioned is that God takes all the children to heaven. All die a quick death of drowning. No few hours of drowning like a guy will experience in a brazen bull.

The gravity of the sin of Adam does not change the fact that Adams sin caused the fall of the human race. It really doesn't matter how Adam would feel. I know he really didn't know the extent of his sin till he saw Able laying dead in the field. Yes, one sin of disobedience caused it all.

Adam was the first to sin. It seems you have engrained irrational theories and concepts. I am stil not sure why you making an issue of Adam's sin. What is your underlying point on it? How does it impact my belief? You have said Adam is not to blame for our sin. I am happy with that.

I never said all are equally wicked. I said all sin can send one to Hell. The human race fell in Adam. Some seek God and redemption. Others do not. All are sinners and on their way to Hell. Only those who come to God and Christ are redeemed. There are a lot of 'good' people who will go to Hell. They are good by the world's standards. But not by God's standard.

This is all not true. Sounds correct but is not. There is no unlucky good person in hell and no lucky bad person in heaven. The verdict in John 3:19 is that people reject the light, because they love the darkness, because their deeds are evil.

God's standard is ours. Consider how we can escape God's judgement 1 Cor 11:31. How is that possible if God has a different view of what is good and evil.

I have never implied I serve a wicked God. That is your accusation.

You imply God is a tyrant. You imply God is unjust. You imply God is deceitful in that He has a different code of ethics to what He has disclosed to us in scripture.

 

[Beresheet]

There is two ends to that spectrum of free will when it comes to Gods children. There are those that have total free will and those that do not have free will. There is a group of Gods children, known as the Elect, that do not have free will. Some would question why does God pick and choose some to be the Elect. God didn’t pick and choose the Elect, their obedience and loyalty to God (EARNED) them that position of being one of Gods Elect. What was their obedience and loyalty that won them the honor of being one of Gods Elect?

To get the answer to that one must go back to the foundation, during Satan’s rebellion/overthrow. During this time, you all remember the story, where Satan had one third of Gods children worshipping him. And Satan decided he was taking over. There was that one third of Gods children that was so biblically illiterate, that they weren’t able to make a decision on who to follow, God or Satan. Then there was that one third that was obedient and loyal to God and stood with God to overthrow Satan coup.

That obedience and loyalty of this one third to make that stand against Satan’s coup won them the right and distinction of becoming one of Gods Elect. So you can see they earned that right to be one of the Elect, God didn’t pick or choose. God will always reward obedience and loyalty when making a stand for Him. The Elect overcame during this time. They have already shown God their true hearts, they had a choice to follow Satan or God, they chose to side with God. Their reward, their souls/spirits have been elevated to the status of deathlessness and to be one of Gods Elect during the flesh age of man.

I said their soul/spirits have gain the status of deathlessness, not the flesh bodies they were in during this flesh age we are in at the present. The the Elects flesh body can die just like those with free will. But their soul/spirit will live in the eternity with God and all the other overcomers

All others have total free will to do as they please, unless they on their own, honesty and seriously, ask God to come into their lives and use them as He see fit. Until one with free will ask God to use them, God will not interfere in their lives to make them do or say anything to further God Plan.

Might mention that some of the Elect play evil parts here on earth. Take pharaoh for intense. God made mention He raised Pharoah up for a purpose. God used him to discipline His children. The dead give away, that Pharaoh was one of the Elect is that God hardened Pharaoh heart a few times interfering with Pharaoh free will. Pharaoh sure didn’t ask God to come into his life. Probably just the opposite. But the act of God interfering in Pharoah decision making shows that Pharoah was one of the Elect.

• Then there was Paul who scribed most the New Testament. God said Paul was His Chosen vessel. Paul played a evil part in the beginning before God struck him down to get his attention. Up to that time Paul’s free will was to beat and in prison Christians. But it came time for God to wake Paul up to preform the task God had for him. What a mighty task Paul performed for God. We are know that God was with him all the way.

God always rewards his children for obedience and loyalty. ALWAYS. And by the same token He punishes those who are not obedient. ALWAYS.

 

[Swinford]

I think it depends according to your situation I can guarantee you sin to others it happens because they are lost still in between deciding

 

[Quantrill]

Greetings,

thank you for clarifying your post.
I appreciate that you took the time to let me and others who may have mis-read what you wrote.
That sort of thing happens all too often and communication is good for bringing out what is meant.
Now we all need to seek the Lord in how we read the Scriptures we have been given for edifying and building each other up with.


Bless you ....><>

You're quite welcome.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

They did not die. If you are referring to aging, I think not either. God never planned for a flesh (which Adam had before and after eating the fruit) to live forever. Adam's clock was ticking from the day he was created. God did not make him spirit first like an angel. He made him in flesh. Hence death, was excommunication. You are adding to scripture. Just look at the facts. Eat fruit = aware of nudity = God clothed them = God told them to leave and what to expect = they left and came to earth as we know it. I don't see death. I don't see lake of fire. I don't see wicked God. I only see excommunication and read that God explains this / words this as ''death / die''.



If God operated at a different level of good and evil, then He would not have said in Gen 3:22 that we are now, 'like Him'. Your argument is just moving the goal posts. "''We cannot grasp God, we must just believe and trust He is good, even though my interpretation implies He is terribly wicked, but I am sure in some special way He is not, I just hope I never get interrogated by a smart god basher'''.

Yes it was good. God changes society when there is too much corruption and wickedness. He wants a balance of good and evil. Otherwise the righteous are tested beyond their ability and children have no hope. So God brings change whenever the wicked are extremely wicked and in the clear majority.

What must also be mentioned is that God takes all the children to heaven. All die a quick death of drowning. No few hours of drowning like a guy will experience in a brazen bull.

Adam was the first to sin. It seems you have engrained irrational theories and concepts. I am stil not sure why you making an issue of Adam's sin. What is your underlying point on it? How does it impact my belief? You have said Adam is not to blame for our sin. I am happy with that.



This is all not true. Sounds correct but is not. There is no unlucky good person in hell and no lucky bad person in heaven. The verdict in John 3:19 is that people reject the light, because they love the darkness, because their deeds are evil.

God's standard is ours. Consider how we can escape God's judgement 1 Cor 11:31. How is that possible if God has a different view of what is good and evil.

You imply God is a tyrant. You imply God is unjust. You imply God is deceitful in that He has a different code of ethics to what He has disclosed to us in scripture.

Then you are saying God was lying or He just didn't fully understand? (Gen. 2:17) "...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The only reason man dies is because of sin. Adam was created perfect. If he had not sinned he would not have died. (Rom. 5:12) "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:". I am not adding to Scripture. I am giving you Scripture. You only see excommunication because that is all you want to see. When you die, you will see death. Or, are you telling me you won't die?

I have never said God is wicked. You keep sayinging that I say that, but I am not saying that. I am saying God is good irregardless of what He does. What He does is good. You however say that if God did do that then He can't be good. This is where we disagree. What God does is good. God does not do good.

Exactly right, God was good in bringing the flood to kill millions of people. Just like God was good when he sent Israel in to destroy men women and children in Canaan. Just like God is good when He casts a multitude of people into the Lake of Fire for an eternity. Whether a death is quick or lingering is really immaterial. It is God who did it. And the one in the Lake of Fire, the second death, is an eternal death. Eternally dying.

I have not said Adam is not to be blamed for our sin. Adam is to be blamed for us being sinners. I said we are responsible for our sins, but we sin because of the sin of Adam which made us sinners. And you can go farther back and blame God if you like, as God is the One Who put the tree in the garden and put the serpent in the garden also. I make an issue of Adams sin because it is the fall of the human race. You sin because you are a sinner. You don't become a sinner because you sin. See, you have it backwards again.

I never said an unlucky good person would be in Hell, or that a lucky bad person would be in Heaven. Where did you get such an idea? A lot of 'good people' will be in Hell. They are so good, worldly wise. They treat their neighbor right. They are good to their family. They belong to all the good social groups in their society, even a good acceptable Church. By the world's standard, they are 'good people'. Yet they don't come to Christ for their salvation. They are good but going to Hell. Everyone in Hell belongs there. Everyone in Heaven belongs there. And there will be plenty of 'bad' people in Heaven. Oh yes, the world looks at them as the scourge of the earth. They are bad, they do bad things. Yet they come to Christ for their salvation. Will they be denied? (1 Cor. 1:28) "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen..." No they won't be denied. They are not good and they know it. But the 'good people' are evil and yet don't know it. God knows them all.

Your last sentence is a lie. I have never said or implied such a thing. It is due to your wrong interpretation of God and Scripture that says and implies such a thing.

Quantrill

 

[Br. Bear]

You're quite welcome.

Quantrill

Thank you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Then you are saying God was lying or He just didn't fully understand? (Gen. 2:17) "...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." The only reason man dies is because of sin. Adam was created perfect. If he had not sinned he would not have died. (Rom. 5:12) "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:". I am not adding to Scripture. I am giving you Scripture. You only see excommunication because that is all you want to see. When you die, you will see death. Or, are you telling me you won't die?

I only see excommunication because that is what happened. That was God's take on the word ''die''. Your take is based on the English dictionary and grasped with your human mind as '''die = dead''. You add to scripture when you say ''die = lake of fire / hell''. When we see someone get the lethal injection we say ''they died''. We know this because of the post lethal injection evidence. The person is lying on the bed not moving. Their heart cannot be resuscitated. Their brain has stopped working. When God says ''you will die''. We know what He means by looking at the post ''death'' evidence.

I have never said God is wicked. You keep sayinging that I say that, but I am not saying that. I am saying God is good irregardless of what He does. What He does is good. You however say that if God did do that then He can't be good. This is where we disagree. What God does is good. God does not do good.

Teaching that God is a tyrant, deceitful and unjust is saying He is wicked.

What He does is good because we judge it as good. You want us to accept what is crystal clear wickedness as good, just because God is God. You have still not grasped Gen 3:22 ''We know what is good and evil just like God and the angels''. David says give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. Abraham interrogated God over Sodom and concluded God was good. Moses challenged God on destroying many for the golden calf and he concluded God was right and good.

Exactly right, God was good in bringing the flood to kill millions of people. Just like God was good when he sent Israel in to destroy men women and children in Canaan. Just like God is good when He casts a multitude of people into the Lake of Fire for an eternity. Whether a death is quick or lingering is really immaterial. It is God who did it. And the one in the Lake of Fire, the second death, is an eternal death. Eternally dying.

Destroying the wicked if they overly persecute the good and are sold out to wickedness, is not only good, it is a necessity. People at the time of the flood were very wicked. Canaanites were very wicked. Have you ever read about the Amalekites?

He only casts the extremely wicked, those sold out to sin, into the lake of fire. Are you not reading John 3:19? How many times must I quote it?

There is a world of difference between quick death and lingering. Quick death is good, torture is wicked. One cannot ever defend torture as good. I have to assume that you have never been tortured or properly thought about it. Please join this discussion Is Hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states?.

You sin because you are a sinner. You don't become a sinner because you sin. See, you have it backwards again.

I am not born a sinner. What part if me is a sinner? My toe? My hairy back? My innocent childlike mind? Muscles and testosterone = inevitable bully? We are born in an environment of sin and given a weak flesh. All God is to blame for is being good. He created a weak flesh and all that is earth today to allow for true free will. God did not actually create sin.

I never said an unlucky good person would be in Hell, or that a lucky bad person would be in Heaven. Where did you get such an idea? A lot of 'good people' will be in Hell. They are so good, worldly wise. They treat their neighbor right. They are good to their family. They belong to all the good social groups in their society, even a good acceptable Church. By the world's standard, they are 'good people'. Yet they don't come to Christ for their salvation. They are good but going to Hell. Everyone in Hell belongs there. Everyone in Heaven belongs there. And there will be plenty of 'bad' people in Heaven. Oh yes, the world looks at them as the scourge of the earth. They are bad, they do bad things. Yet they come to Christ for their salvation. Will they be denied? (1 Cor. 1:28) "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen..." No they won't be denied. They are not good and they know it. But the 'good people' are evil and yet don't know it. God knows them all.

You confusing this unnecessarily. People who do what is good are noticed by God. God pays them a visit. Look at how David was chosen. ''There is a man after my own heart, a man I can use for anything''.

No good people go to hell because no good people reject Jesus. John 3:19 says this perfectly.

You say they ''can be good by the worlds standard''. What is this standard? If it is GLBT is fine, I agree with you. If it is ''murder and rape is wrong'' I disagree with you.

1 Pet 4:18 says that many righteous are barely saved. This means that there are those who are barely not saved. Degrees of wicked people. Not all wicked are as wicked as satan.

Your last sentence is a lie. I have never said or implied such a thing. It is due to your wrong interpretation of God and Scripture that says and implies such a thing.

It is due to me using my God given brain. God forbid I not use it.

1. You say God's management style is His way or the highway = God is a tyrant.
2. You say God has a different code of ethics to us. His good is not our good. Hence the bible is false in Gen 3:22 and wherever else it speaks to what is wrong and right = God is deceitful.
3. You say that God will torture the wicked and that sin is sin. A person who only lied is on par with an axe murderer = God is unjust

God is none of these. God is not a tyrant. He is a good God. Everything around us points to free will. Him wanting to be good. He can be evil. But He chooses not to be. God is not deceitful. He is not a man that should lie. All scripture is true Gen 3:22 inclusive. God is not unjust. When has He been unjust? He is slow to anger. He is merciful.

 

[B-A-C]

God is not unjust. When has He been unjust?

That is correct, He is a just God. He judges correctly.

Bob lived all his life saying God doesn't exist. Bob works at an abortion clinic and has performed many abortions. Bob watches child pornography. Bob is having a couple of affairs on his wife.
Bob molests his children. One of the affairs Bob is involved with is with another man. Bob has never given a penny to homeless people. Bob is a member of an organization that is actively
promoting racism and atheism. Bob regularly participates in protests against Christianity.

Tom used to be a sinner. He still isn't perfect. Tom loves his children and does his best to love them and protect them. Tom has never cheated on his wife (he doesn't even look at pornography)
Tom prays for people. Tom give to to the poor when he can. Tom volunteers at a homeless shelter sometimes. Tom witnesses to unsaved people when he feels led to. Tom used to drink a lot and smoke,
but he doesn't do those things anymore. Tom doesn't curse anymore and he never takes the Lords name in vain.

Both die on the same day. They are both standing in front of God.

... according to you, they get the same reward. Neither goes to hell. Neither gets punished.

That is a just God to you?

 

[Quantrill]

I only see excommunication because that is what happened. That was God's take on the word ''die''. Your take is based on the English dictionary and grasped with your human mind as '''die = dead''. You add to scripture when you say ''die = lake of fire / hell''. When we see someone get the lethal injection we say ''they died''. We know this because of the post lethal injection evidence. The person is lying on the bed not moving. Their heart cannot be resuscitated. Their brain has stopped working. When God says ''you will die''. We know what He means by looking at the post ''death'' evidence.



Teaching that God is a tyrant, deceitful and unjust is saying He is wicked.

What He does is good because we judge it as good. You want us to accept what is crystal clear wickedness as good, just because God is God. You have still not grasped Gen 3:22 ''We know what is good and evil just like God and the angels''. David says give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. Abraham interrogated God over Sodom and concluded God was good. Moses challenged God on destroying many for the golden calf and he concluded God was right and good.

Destroying the wicked if they overly persecute the good and are sold out to wickedness, is not only good, it is a necessity. People at the time of the flood were very wicked. Canaanites were very wicked. Have you ever read about the Amalekites?

He only casts the extremely wicked, those sold out to sin, into the lake of fire. Are you not reading John 3:19? How many times must I quote it?

There is a world of difference between quick death and lingering. Quick death is good, torture is wicked. One cannot ever defend torture as good. I have to assume that you have never been tortured or properly thought about it. Please join this discussion Is Hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states?.

I am not born a sinner. What part if me is a sinner? My toe? My hairy back? My innocent childlike mind? Muscles and testosterone = inevitable bully? We are born in an environment of sin and given a weak flesh. All God is to blame for is being good. He created a weak flesh and all that is earth today to allow for true free will. God did not actually create sin.

You confusing this unnecessarily. People who do what is good are noticed by God. God pays them a visit. Look at how David was chosen. ''There is a man after my own heart, a man I can use for anything''.

No good people go to hell because no good people reject Jesus. John 3:19 says this perfectly.

You say they ''can be good by the worlds standard''. What is this standard? If it is GLBT is fine, I agree with you. If it is ''murder and rape is wrong'' I disagree with you.

1 Pet 4:18 says that many righteous are barely saved. This means that there are those who are barely not saved. Degrees of wicked people. Not all wicked are as wicked as satan.



It is due to me using my God given brain. God forbid I not use it.

1. You say God's management style is His way or the highway = God is a tyrant.
2. You say God has a different code of ethics to us. His good is not our good. Hence the bible is false in Gen 3:22 and wherever else it speaks to what is wrong and right = God is deceitful.
3. You say that God will torture the wicked and that sin is sin. A person who only lied is on par with an axe murderer = God is unjust

God is none of these. God is not a tyrant. He is a good God. Everything around us points to free will. Him wanting to be good. He can be evil. But He chooses not to be. God is not deceitful. He is not a man that should lie. All scripture is true Gen 3:22 inclusive. God is not unjust. When has He been unjust? He is slow to anger. He is merciful.

Excommunication is not death. There is nothing to indicate in the Scripture that Adam and Eve's expulsion from the garden is the death God spoke of. Death does not equal the Lake of Fire, but the Lake of Fire is the place of the Second Death. (Rev. 21:8). Death is separation. Physical death is separation of your spirit and soul from your body. Spiritual death is separation of your spirit from God. On the day Adam and Eve died, their spirit was separated from God. And death now worked in their physical bodies which would one day kill their body. Because both believing and unbelieving will be resurrected, (Acts 24:15), the unbelieving will experience the lake of fire which means their bodies die again, consumed in the lake of fire, which is called the Second Death. Their bodies are destroyed, yet their spirit and soul live eternally in the Lake of Fire, which is death, eternal separation from God.

No, your sitting in judgement of God, for what you call good, is a mistake. Your judgement is flawed as you are using the worlds understanding of good. Just because God is sole authority does not mean He is evil, deceitful, unjust, or respecter of persons. I have always said God is good. Just because you accuse me of saying God is not, doesn't mean I have.

Concerning (Gen. 3:22), you err. This does not mean that men everywhere can discern what is good and evil. (Is. 5:20) Before the fall man knew only the 'good'. He did not know evil. He had no experience with evil. Once the fall occurred, he now will experience evil. He now will know both good and evil. And due to this fall, this experience with evil , his ability to discern between good and evil will be affected.

Concerning 'destroying the wicked' I have already told you God was good in doing it. It is not me that finds a problem with God being good in all He does. It is you. God casts those into the Lake of Fire who are not His. They are not believers. You can quote (John 3:19) all you want. Just quote (3:18) with it. Believers are drawn to the light. Unbelievers are drawn to darkness. Their deeds will reflect who they are. This doesn't mean all their deeds will be perceived as bad or evil. But all their deeds will be evil nonetheless.

The Second Death has nothing to do with 'extremely wicked'. Just like being born-again has nothing to do with being 'extremely good'. The Second Death has to do with all the wicked, who are all the unbelieving. It has to do with those who have rejected Christ and God. There is no difference between a lingering death, and an immediate death. God sends them both. And that was point concerning them.

Yes, you, and everyone born of Adam is born a sinner. Our environment reflects that because all are born sinners and so have created such an environment. Our environment didn't make us sinners. Adam and Eve, and satan, had the best environments possible. Yet sinned. If we are not all sinners due to Adams one sin, tell me this....Who did Christ die for? Which one? He could only have died for one as He is only One. So who is the one? You? A substitute is a life for a life.

David was a believer with a heart after God, but David did some bad things....didn't he? Just like there are unbelievers who do many 'good' things. Yet they reject Jesus Christ. No, (1 Peter 4:18) says 'if the righteous scarcely be saved'. It doesn't say 'many'. All of the righteous are scarcely saved.

Your God given brain doesn't always reflect the truth found in Scripture. You can be mistaken and it will reflect that.

1.) Yes it is always Gods way or the highway. That doesn't mean God is a tyrant. It just means He is God.

2.) Jesus is the One Who said only God is good. (Luke 18:19) Your argument is with Him.

3.) Scripture says the unbelieving will be tossed into the lake of fire for ever. Eternal death. God would be just in tossing all into the Lake of Fire if He so wanted. But in mercy, He does not. It is not a question of 'what' sins one commits. It is a question of whether or not you 'die' in your sins. (John 8:21)

4.) What do you base this on what I have said? If indeed God chooses without partiality, how is He partial?

I have never said man doesn't have a will. I never said God lied. I never said God is deceitful. I never said God is unjust. All Scripture is true.

Concerning (Acts 10:34) Indeed God is no respecter of persons when it comes to judgement or salvation. Both will be found from all aspects of society. Concerning (Rom. 9), which I assume you meant verses (8-13), there is a difference between the children of promise and those who are not. This has nothing to do with any partiality, as God knows those that are of Him and those that are not.

Quantrill

 

[Br. Bear]

1.) Yes it is always Gods way or the highway. That doesn't mean God is a tyrant. It just means He is God.

Greetings,

Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

from what I understand, a person is a slave. either to God, or to the Devil. A slave is owned by his master.
We have been bought with a price....

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit Who is in you, Whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body. 1Corinthians 6:19-20

mind you, it is God Who has the first and last say...
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:11-12


Bless you ...><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11

 

[Quantrill]

Greetings,

Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

from what I understand, a person is a slave. either to God, or to the Devil. A slave is owned by his master.
We have been bought with a price....

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit Who is in you, Whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body. 1Corinthians 6:19-20

mind you, it is God Who has the first and last say...
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:11-12


Bless you ...><>

I agree, we have been bought and paid for. God our Master does own us. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Slavery has been so made the epitome of evil in our day, that believers are unwilling to identify themselves as slaves to God. Mankind is always a slave to some master. There is no 'independence' in the spirit world.

Quantrill

 

[KingJ]

... according to you, they get the same reward.

Please quote me. I have not said that.

 

[KingJ]

Excommunication is not death. There is nothing to indicate in the Scripture that Adam and Eve's expulsion from the garden is the death God spoke of.

''When you eat of the fruit you will die''. Everything that happened after they ate, is death. What happened? They were removed from God's presence.

Death does not equal the Lake of Fire , but the Lake of Fire is the place of the Second Death. (Rev. 21:8).

Agreed.

Death is separation.

Agreed.

No, your sitting in judgement of God, for what you call good, is a mistake. Your judgement is flawed as you are using the worlds understanding of good. Just because God is sole authority does not mean He is evil, deceitful, unjust, or respecter of persons. I have always said God is good. Just because you accuse me of saying God is not, doesn't mean I have.

The world's understanding of good?

After WW2 the allies pushed for the Geneva convention. The fair treatment of German soldiers captured. It was to ensure there was no ''eye for an eye'' mistreatment. It was to ensure they were treated properly, on par with your soldiers. Humanely. The Russians did not and would not sign this. The Germans ran from east to west as a result. You would compare our God with the Russians? And call that good?

There is no universe, no dimension, no heightened understanding where torture = good. Where sin = sin.

Concerning (Gen. 3:22), you err. This does not mean that men everywhere can discern what is good and evil. (Is. 5:20) Before the fall man knew only the 'good'. He did not know evil. He had no experience with evil. Once the fall occurred, he now will experience evil. He now will know both good and evil. And due to this fall, this experience with evil , his ability to discern between good and evil will be affected.

You have cherry picked Is 5:20. The context is ''woe''' to those who willingly / knowingly call evil good. The only time someone believes evil is good is when they are given over by God to their desires Rom 1:24. This happens normally just before God destroys them. When they land up in hell, they will recall the time they could properly discern. They will recall the time they were given over. They will have no excuse.

As for us who go to heaven. God clears up our glasses 1 Cor 13:12. No brainwashing. We can now clearer grasp what is good and evil. We will be even harsher on our judgement of torture being evil. If God wanted to be wicked, He would have to brainwash us. Do you believe God will brainwash us? Remove our memories of the wicked? That is what a tyrant will do.

Concerning 'destroying the wicked' I have already told you God was good in doing it. It is not me that finds a problem with God being good in all He does. It is you.

I don't have any problem with what God has done. It passes my judgement of what is good. I would have done ''EXACTLY'' the same as God. I can defend God to any god basher.

The Amalekites for example. They promised the Jews safe passage. The Jews promised not to be a disturbance and spoil any land. They then surprised attacked and killed them. Caused panic and terror. Weak and defenseless elderly and children would die first. The Jews ran. The Amalekites went to their neighbors and asked for help to completely eradicate the Jews. The Canaanites knew of the sufferings of the Hebrews. 400 years in slavery. They knew of God being with them. They knew they were good people who would stone to death rapists, adulterers, murderers. Yet they did what they did. Can a person be more wicked??? God was completely justified in His wrath on them. I simply cannot believe that some think God is wicked for His wrath on the enemies of the Hebrews.

God casts those into the Lake of Fire who are not His. They are not believers. You can quote (John 3:19) all you want. Just quote (3:18) with it. Believers are drawn to the light. Unbelievers are drawn to darkness. Their deeds will reflect who they are. This doesn't mean all their deeds will be perceived as bad or evil. But all their deeds will be evil nonetheless.

You are now just cherry picking verse 18. There is context to believing in Jesus. Nobody can believe Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. God judges hearts and minds at a level no human can Jer 17:9-11. If we pass He reveals Jesus to us. Jesus comes in only if we open the door Rev 3:20. Opening the door is following Matt 16:24 ''laying your life down'', Psalm 51:17 ''truthful repentance'' as genuine love is hating what is evil and clinging to what is good Rom 12:9.

If you disagree with me you can only then believe these two options:

1. God is partial. He cherry picks whom to give saving faith to. Partiality is wicked!
2. They are lucky. They were born in the right religion. They have a belief in Jesus. That saves them. Their faith **cough cough** saves them.

 

[KingJ]

Yes, you, and everyone born of Adam is born a sinner. Our environment reflects that because all are born sinners and so have created such an environment. Our environment didn't make us sinners.

Of course our environment makes us sin. We have temptation all around us. We will be exposed to some kind of evil the second we reach the age of understanding. Guaranteed. Since you believe we have sin at birth, do you not believe children go to heaven?

Adam and Eve, and satan, had the best environments possible. Yet sinned.

There is a world of difference between saying we are born sinners to saying we will inevitably sin. All God has achieved in placing us in the world verse in a sinless environment is time saving. It took Adam how many years before he sinned? By God putting us in a fallen world, it takes only until the age of understanding before we sin.

Adam, Eve and satan sinned because they had free will and high intelligence. Disobeying God is inevitable. This is why God made the lake of fire for satan and earth and the lake of fire for us. This is why wolves with big teeth lay with lambs in Eden.

If we are not all sinners due to Adams one sin, tell me this....Who did Christ die for? Which one? He could only have died for one as He is only One. So who is the one? You? A substitute is a life for a life.

God determines what is an acceptable sacrifice. I can relate to your proposing life for a life. Does God? It seems not. God saw animal sacrifice as worthy for the Jews. God sees Jesus as worthy for all mankind.

We are not sinners due to Adam's sin. Get over this. I never ever ate a forbidden fruit and nor did you. I never had the desire to listen to Eve. I don't even know her. You are reciting a popular but nonsensical belief. It holds no water.

David was a believer with a heart after God, but David did some bad things....didn't he? Just like there are unbelievers who do many 'good' things. Yet they reject Jesus Christ.

Believer? Believer in what? God looked at the earth and saw a man called David who was upright in all his ways. David committed mortal sins, but he repented as he hated them. No this is not the same as unbelievers doing good things but rejecting Christ. How can you think that goes together? If unbelievers did good things they wouldn't remain unbelievers James 4:8, Matt 16:16-17, 1 Cor 12:3.

No, (1 Peter 4:18) says 'if the righteous scarcely be saved'. It doesn't say 'many'. All of the righteous are scarcely saved.

Non issue. You missed the point it seems. Namely, there are wicked that almost made it.

Your God given brain doesn't always reflect the truth found in Scripture. You can be mistaken and it will reflect that.

Deeper truths / Additions to what we already know as we grow closer to God, yes. Not replacements. In no universe is tyranny and torture a good thing.

1.) Yes it is always Gods way or the highway. That doesn't mean God is a tyrant. It just means He is God.

Yes it does, if His way or the highway influences non grievous disobedience. Imagine you say this to your wife. Will she stay married to you? Thou shalt not eat that fruit. Thou shalt not wear that dress. Thou shalt not egg thy neigbors house. If it is ''thou shalt not rape and murder', sure. Agreed. His way or the highway.

2.) Jesus is the One Who said only God is good. (Luke 18:19) Your argument is with Him.

Now you suggesting Jesus is deceitful? Jesus should have qualified His statement. ''Only God is good, God's goodness is something you and I will judge as terrifyingly wicked, but ignore that, He is good, just keep saying that, one-day we will have a different dictionary that amends the word good / or one-day you will have a more corrupted mind that sees wickedness as good''.

3.) Scripture says the unbelieving will be tossed into the lake of fire for ever.

Half truth. You are now inferring the '''unlucky'''. The unbelieving are those who hate what is good full measure John 3:19, please meditate on it!

Eternal death. God would be just in tossing all into the Lake of Fire if He so wanted.

No He would not. What is wrong with you? How can you think this? If all Adam did was eat a forbidden fruit.....'''God is justified in tossing him in a burning lake of sulfur for all eternity..???? What the heck??? You honestly telling me you believe this???? God is just. Not unjust. I am so glad He is a just judge. The devil would do what you are proposing.

But in mercy, He does not. It is not a question of 'what' sins one commits. It is a question of whether or not you 'die' in your sins. (John 8:21)

''What sins'' point to hating or loving sin and hating sin leads to repentance and to God giving mercy.

In the OT a sin like adultery resulted in death Lev 20:10. If a man marries his sister he is not to be put to death but excommunicated Lev 20:17. In the NT if we have thoughts of a woman we sin Matt 5:28 but only actual adultery is grounds for divorce Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9. Why is this?

4.) What do you base this on what I have said? If indeed God chooses without partiality, how is He partial?

You have said you are part Calvinist. You have touched on some of it here. How do you explain God choosing without partiality? Our ability to believe? or our hatred of sin that leads to Him giving us faith? Or He randomly picks some to save?

I have never said man doesn't have a will. I never said God lied. I never said God is deceitful. I never said God is unjust. All Scripture is true.

I have explained myself. I can assure you that a god basher or an unsaved person will interpret your words as I have. I do not believe you speak ill of God. I am showing you that you are miss-representing Him. You are blindly defending Him when you don't need to. The truth defends Him as good to any and every rational mind.

Concerning (Acts 10:34) Indeed God is no respecter of persons when it comes to judgement or salvation. Both will be found from all aspects of society. Concerning (Rom. 9), which I assume you meant verses (8-13), there is a difference between the children of promise and those who are not. This has nothing to do with any partiality, as God knows those that are of Him and those that are not.

What do you mean in your last line?

 

[KingJ]

Greetings,

Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

from what I understand, a person is a slave. either to God, or to the Devil. A slave is owned by his master.
We have been bought with a price....

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit Who is in you, Whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body. 1Corinthians 6:19-20

mind you, it is God Who has the first and last say...
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:11-12

Bless you ...><>

In my posts I refer to the slave master being a tyrant.

We choose to accept and obey Jesus and be His slaves because we agree with His teachings. What He stands for. Turn the left cheek. Love thy neighbor. Love thy enemy. If in heaven we discover God is an unjust, deceitful tyrant. What then?

This thread's purpose is to make clear the fact that God is not an unjust, deceitful tyrant.

I find it interesting that He says to the Jews who had slaves, that any slave who wants to leave their master can do so. The new master is not allowed to report the slave to the old Deut 23:15.

Scripture when read properly has so many truths that when added together paint such a wonderful picture of a good God. I hate it when some take a few cherry picked scriptures that suggest God is a wicked tyrant. Many do this. What is wrong with everyone? We have one job as a Christian. Properly represent God to the unsaved.

 

[Quantrill]

We are not sinners due to Adam's sin. Get over this. I never ever ate a forbidden fruit and nor did you.

No He would not. What is wrong with you? How can you think this? If all Adam did was eat a forbidden fruit.....'''God is justified in tossing him in a burning lake of sulfur for all eternity..???? What the heck??? You honestly telling me you believe this???? God is just. Not unjust. I am so glad He is a just judge. The devil would do what you are proposing.

Not only Adam, but the whole human race went down at the eating of the fruit. And most of those will wind up in Hell. Adam will not go to Hell as he was redeemed. As was Eve. But, yes, due to the simple act of eating the fruit, mankind was fallen. This is the best and most merciful thing God could do for the human race. It is called Federal Headship. Adam represented his whole race. He is the first Adam. The first representative. His acts determined the outcome of his race, which fell. (1 Cor. 15:45) Jesus Christ is the Last Adam. He is the last representative of the human race. And by His good works, those who He represents are saved. (1 Cor. 15:45)

Because God sees the human race guilty due to one man, Adam, Then God can redeem all in one man, Jesus Christ. This is the only way one Man's sacrifice will suffice for all. This is why I say the human race falling due to Adam's sin is the best God could do for us. Because he can now redeem the human race in one Man's good work. If it is not this way, then one sacrifice for one man. And who is the man?

Read (Rom. 5:12-19). How many times is the words 'by one man' used? And who are they addressing?

Quantrill

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings KingJ,

I am convinced that you desire to serve and love the Lord with all you have and I appreciate your posts even though i do not always fancy all the ingredients upon the plate. You always put a lot of effort into attempting to share what you do. I don't do that very often as i tend to ramble on a bit and it is quite possible that i lose people along the way. I have been known to send folks to sleep while talking about Biblical/Scriptural things!

Please understand i am not having a go at you personally; not your heart, nor faith, with the following.

You wrote:

Yes it does, if His way or the highway influences non grievous disobedience. Imagine you say this to your wife. Will she stay married to you? Thou shalt not eat that fruit. Thou shalt not wear that dress. Thou shalt not egg thy neigbors house. If it is ''thou shalt not rape and murder', sure. Agreed. His way or the highway.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; Ephesians 5:25 KJV

Most husbands don't have a problem with this, in theory at least. Most wives would definitely agree with it.

But what does the verse(s) before tell us?

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and He is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Ephesians 5:22-24 KJV

Now, most husbands would definitely agree and most wives would, in theory at least.

But do we read on? And this is the 'crunch line' to what i am writing to you....

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:32 KJV

So, in your presented argument (argument is OK, as is criticism; it is how they are used and presented), let us turn it around a little. Any 'true' Christian knows that if the Lord says, "Jump", we are to jump. In fact we all know that those who love Him obey Him and that obedience, rather than rebellion against, is vital in believing and living the Life He died for, for us, and has given us to live. So, if a husband such as He, who is willing to be as Christ towards his wife, says

Thou shalt not wear that dress.

then the wife need not get flustered and she can and should obey, especially if she sincerely desires to please the Lord. The same with the other examples you presented.
We don't hesitate to be obliging in obedience (in theory at least) to the Lord and we are repentantly sorry if we do resist and hear His gentle chiding and correction, if our Lord AND King gives an order to us, which He has as seen in the Bible. In fact, one big problem is that we can so easily forget that as the King, we must obey. Jesus is Lord and King, not Lord only. (and much, much more, for example, He is the Lover of our souls and the Good Shepherd of our souls and the Captain of our Salvation)

No, God is NOT a tyrant. That is the sort of thing man might attain to if left unchecked but God is NOT a tyrant... BUT, it is His way or the highway, so to speak and rightly so. How can I say that? you may ask. it is because He is Holy. Therefore, His way, and we well know, is the only way, and we know also that His Way is in and through His Son, alone. And I am So glad that this is true. I know exactly where i stand and which way to go and it is not left up to me to exercise my feeble, shortsighted and carnal 'free will' to attempt to get it right. I am also glad because it puts us all in the same boat with the same set of rules and the same destination, planned and set out for us, complete with a precious Comforter to help us and teach us along the Way.
People do need to hear that it is God's 'way or the highway' ... before it is too late.
Noah was told to do something quite odd. Build an ark. From what i understand Noah told people of God's way and they all have plenty of opportunity to both hear of it and to listen (which is sort of what obey means) and most assuredly, those who did not want it His 'way or the highway' perished. We know our Holy God is NOT willing that any should perish.

Let me know if this does or does not make sense and if you have any differing thoughts on what i have written, KingJ.

You have been engaging with your fellow Member Quantrill @Quantrill for some time on this thread and I want you to feel more at peace and assured that he means no harm to you nor is after a battle of words and like you, seeks the truth and that truth is Gods Way. (correct me if i am wrong @Quantrill . )
None of us want to be told....the highway with you!


Bless you ....><>

 

[Curtis]

If sin is tied to free will, then also is obedience tied to free will. Sometimes having the free will to choose what we want, and do is not always a good thing.
It's nice to have free will, but it is better to freely choose to have someone else make those choices for me who knows all things!

My will is to do the will of God. That is my free will choice that I freely give up!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

Perhaps when push comes to shove, the only free will. (as being discussed) is to want and do God's will, for in so doing, we have liberty (freedom)
Apart from God's will is to be in chains as servants to the Devil.
By faith (through grace) we can both hear and believe in the will of God and from then on ask and pray that His will be done.
Jesus has paid full price for our redemption, justification and salvation, delivering us and setting us free.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31-32

Again, Thy will be done, O God, Thy will be done.

Choose this day who you will serve.... or another way might be rendered, choose this day whose will you will serve?

Can we follow Jesus and His example?

For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me. John 6:38

that is when you will becomes truly free.


And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40


Bless you ....><>

After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father Which art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
as it is in heaven.
Matthew 6:9-10