SIAP...Can you make the BIBLICAL argument that abortion is morally acceptable after rape?

[complete]

'He came to His own,
.. and His own received Him not.
.... But as many as received Him,
...... He gave to them authority to become the children of God,
........ to those who believe on His name,
who were born,
.. not of bloods,
.... nor of the will of the flesh,
...... nor of the will of man,
........ but were born of God.
And the Word became flesh,
.. and tabernacled among us.
.... And we beheld His glory,
...... the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,
........ full of grace and of truth.'
(John 1:11-14)

Hello there, @K9Buckeye, @PloughBoy, @Reba1, @Hekuran, @Born Again 2004, @Kirby D. P., @joestue, @Brother Paul,

When the subject of abortion comes up, my mind always goes to, the words of verse 13 in the reading above, which identifies those born from above, by the Spirit of God, ( ie., the children of God ) and those born of the flesh, by saying, 'who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. ''

'not of bloods'
'nor of the will of the flesh,'
'nor of the will of man'

I find these factors interesting, and the predominant point is that a child is born by the WILL of those whose union in the flesh produce it. In the case of rape, the will of the woman is denied expression, and the will of the perpetrator of that crime is not to produce offspring, but to satisfy his own lust. Also in the case of an act of mutual sexual gratification on behalf of two individuals, again the will of both is not to produce offspring, but to gratify a basic need.

The introduction of 'the will' brings responsibility, and accountability to what is otherwise an action born of mindlessness and lust driven desire. How important it is to think through the implications of our actions before contemplating engaging in it. The sexual act should be the consummation of the love expressed between two individuals, who are committed to one another and in a position to provide for the resulting outcome. It should be an act of will that brings forth a child.

How this influences the discussion I don't know, but I felt the need to express it.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Brad Huber]

It depends. By which moral standard? By strictly Biblical standards, occurring to the society abroad at the time and context of the composition of Scripture, abortion has no moral valence beyond “destruction of property” whatsoever (more on this below). By modern Western standards, there are ethical complications when the fetus is a viable baby. This standard, however, is unjust in so far as viability depends heavily upon the standard of medical care in the pregnant woman’s community. A miscarriage in rural El Salvador might easily be an (otherwise uncomplicated) premature delivery in Santa Barbara. This is why I wish so fervently that the vast energies and resources applied by good Christians to America’s “pro” life movement would instead devote them to providing better social services to needy communities around the world.

To the extent “anti-abortionism” is a major cause among American evangelicals, it is a much more modern concept with no basis in Scripture. In the few cases when premature termination of a pregnancy is mentioned in the Bible, it is neither called a murder nor is it punished as if it were. Indeed, in the Ordeal of the Bitter Waters, Israelite temple priests are commanded BY GOD to subject a wife suspected of pregnancy by infidelity to a procedure intended to abort an illegitimate pregnancy.

The Bible makes no mention, ever, that a human life “begins” at “conception” (itself a vernacular word with no clinical meaning). Moreover, in every verse describing the beginning of a human life, the moment specified is BIRTH, when the newborn draws its first breath of LIFE. Indeed, this is precisely the language used in Genesis to describe God’s vivification of Adam. God formed the first man fully out of clay (which is interesting in that he alone among the creatures required ingredients for assembly) but he was not alive until God blew the breath of life into his nostrils. My understanding is this interpretation is still common among Jewish communities. Life begins with the first breath.

In any case, the concept of the immorality of abortion is not Biblical. The Catholic Church adopted it as doctrine in the 1300s. And American evangelicals who argue against ANY abortion whatsoever suffer the same problem of like-minded Catholics. If “Morality” is absolute, objective, unchanging, and explicitly delineated in Scripture, then abortion neither is, nor can it be interpreted as, immoral. On the other hand, if abortion is immoral, then “Morality” is a spoken and unspoken code of behavior we all agree to (albeit inconsistently and imperfectly) and strive to abide (just as inconsistently and imperfectly) drawing whatever information and inspiration from God we can glean from Scripture, dogma, and examples of piety throughout history and in our community.

Personally, I hold that preventing a woman’s access to any abortion before the fetus is a viable baby is without question LESS moral than granting that access. I have a long list of reasons for this opinion and am happy to discuss them, but I am aware mine is a minority and unpopular perspective here and don’t want to deliberately spark brush fires needlessly. I merely wanted to lay out that the argument can be made by someone while still considering themselves a true Christian.

Its not very scientific to say life begins at the first breath. What scientific analysis was done to reach such a conclusion by you and so many others?

 

[Reba1]

'He came to His own,
.. and His own received Him not.
.... But as many as received Him,
...... He gave to them authority to become the children of God,
........ to those who believe on His name,
who were born,
.. not of bloods,
.... nor of the will of the flesh,
...... nor of the will of man,
........ but were born of God.
And the Word became flesh,
.. and tabernacled among us.
.... And we beheld His glory,
...... the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,
........ full of grace and of truth.'
(John 1:11-14)

Hello there, @K9Buckeye, @PloughBoy, @Reba1, @Hekuran, @Born Again 2004, @Kirby D. P., @joestue, @Brother Paul,

When the subject of abortion comes up, my mind always goes to, the words of verse 13 in the reading above, which identifies those born from above, by the Spirit of God, ( ie., the children of God ) and those born of the flesh, by saying, 'who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. ''

'not of bloods'
'nor of the will of the flesh,'
'nor of the will of man'

I find these factors interesting, and the predominant point is that a child is born by the WILL of those whose union in the flesh produce it. In the case of rape, the will of the woman is denied expression, and the will of the perpetrator of that crime is not to produce offspring, but to satisfy his own lust. Also in the case of an act of mutual sexual gratification on behalf of two individuals, again the will of both is not to produce offspring, but to gratify a basic need.

The introduction of 'the will' brings responsibility, and accountability to what is otherwise an action born of mindlessness and lust driven desire. How important it is to think through the implications of our actions before contemplating engaging in it. The sexual act should be the consummation of the love expressed between two individuals, who are committed to one another and in a position to provide for the resulting outcome. It should be an act of will that brings forth a child.

How this influences the discussion I don't know, but I felt the need to express it.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Amazing to what lengths a Christian will go to defend the destruction of the image of God.

 

[PloughBoy]

A lot depends on how people depicts "GOD". Either they may be christian of non-christian. And their view of HIS "SOVEREIGNTY" His "SUPREMACY", which including who gives Life, and who gives "breath" and the ability to move, And who has the "Authority" over death. And what does GOD think of LIFE! Or are we a people that "evolve", Is *****, living, if so Who gives it Life. Is a female egg living, if so who gives it life. to some these might be complex questions, to some easily answered by "Scientific Data" and then to others a quick and simple answer, in which no thinking is required.

It seems to me "Reba 1" sees pretty clear, without a doubt! No thinking is required. What is there to debate! Yes, she got my vote! I am on her side

 

[complete]

Amazing to what lengths a Christian will go to defend the destruction of the image of God.

Hello @Reba1,

You disappoint me! Is this what you believe I have done?

I am against abortion, so I suggest you think again.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Reba1]

Hello @Reba1,

You disappoint me! Is this what you believe I have done?

I am against abortion, so I suggest you think again.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Your post reads to me as i stated.... I guess i failed to understand your post. Could it be something is lost in the language across the pond?

 

[Hekuran]

Its not very scientific to say life begins at the first breath. What scientific analysis was done to reach such a conclusion by you and so many others?

We're not discussing the scientific approach, but the biblical view. "Life" and "breath" are concepts that are very tightly bound together in the Bible.

 

[Reba1]

We're not discussing the scientific approach, but the biblical view. "Life" and "breath" are concepts that are very tightly bound together in the Bible.

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Fetal circulation
Author: Shahab Shahid MBBS • Reviewer: Jerome Goffin
Last reviewed: September 08, 2021
Reading time: 6 minutes

The cardiovascular system develops early in the embryonic stage of development. It starts towards the end of the third week or at the beginning of the fourth week of fetal development.

Once the cardiovascular system is fully established, blood circulation commences and the embryo can directly derive nutrients from its own blood supply.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Fetal circulation
Author: Shahab Shahid MBBS • Reviewer: Jerome Goffin
Last reviewed: September 08, 2021
Reading time: 6 minutes

The cardiovascular system develops early in the embryonic stage of development. It starts towards the end of the third week or at the beginning of the fourth week of fetal development.

Once the cardiovascular system is fully established, blood circulation commences and the embryo can directly derive nutrients from its own blood supply.

God created this embryo before the foundation! It's not for a woman or man to decide , the decision solely belongs to God alone, creation is His alone!

 

[PloughBoy]

God created this embryo before the foundation! It's not for a woman or man to decide , the decision solely belongs to God alone, creation is His alone!

Thats alright, Judgment DAY is coming and on that DAY, HE will not be handing out Mercy or Grace! for "now is A Day of Salvation. Bring forth the "fruits of Repentance now! for tomorrow might be too late. For HE is slow to anger and Great in Power! Now is the Time, while He is near

 

[Brad Huber]

We're not discussing the scientific approach, but the biblical view. "Life" and "breath" are concepts that are very tightly bound together in the Bible.

But the bible doesnt state that life begins at the first breath, but it does state that God knew them before they were born, Jesus and John the baptist reacted to each other while both in the womb, the bible "clearly" shows that life begins before we are born. Since Kirby is trying to set standards, I am bringing into the conversations his belief in science being the way, the truth, and the life. If he cant defend himself, he has no place questioning us. And I am sure he is a big boy, probably an adult that often deals with questions about such things. Why do you speak for him?

 

[Hekuran]

But the bible doesnt state that life begins at the first breath, but it does state that God knew them before they were born, Jesus and John the baptist reacted to each other while both in the womb, the bible "clearly" shows that life begins before we are born. Since Kirby is trying to set standards, I am bringing into the conversations his belief in science being the way, the truth, and the life. If he cant defend himself, he has no place questioning us. And I am sure he is a big boy, probably an adult that often deals with questions about such things. Why do you speak for him?

I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm exploring the question, what does the Bible teach that directly informs our view on abortion?

 

[PloughBoy]

A lot of people either do not care and some do not want to bring it up, that abortions cause pain and suffering to the child within the wound, common sense that GOD has place into everyman. But remember "Humanity loves darkness rather than Light", But if that christian is a "Pelagian thinking christian, of "Semi-Pelagian" or a "Arminian thinking" christian. Abortions becomes a topic. But If that christian is more "Augustinian"or "Calvinistic" in their Theological thinking they see the Pain and feel that pain of that baby that is in the wound that has a soul. There is no debate need.ed

 

[joestue]

A certain homeless person i am familiar with believes the purpose of life is pain. He is hyper calvanist. I asked him once why Jesus told us to spread the gospel and he couldnt give me an answer.

Made the mistake of getting into an argument at church with him. A woman interrupts us and starts talking to me. Man leaves. She says he made her cry, but she felt sorry for him because he was so full of darkness that he was in physical pain in his spine.

Im like.. Woman how do you know that. She proceeds to explain she is a reluctant empath and ever since God showed up in a cancer ward and cured her of cancer she has had this sort of knowledge ever since. So im like. Well you know you can kick that stuff out right? She is like? We can?

I bought her the book "victory over the darkness" by neal t anderson. She says it helped her a lot.

I have to say ive never understood people that dont believe we have free will.

 

[PloughBoy]

A certain homeless person i am familiar with believes the purpose of life is pain. He is hyper calvanist. I asked him once why Jesus told us to spread the gospel and he couldnt give me an answer.

Made the mistake of getting into an argument at church with him. A woman interrupts us and starts talking to me. Man leaves. She says he made her cry, but she felt sorry for him because he was so full of darkness that he was in physical pain in his spine.

Im like.. Woman how do you know that. She proceeds to explain she is a reluctant empath and ever since God showed up in a cancer ward and cured her of cancer she has had this sort of knowledge ever since. So im like. Well you know you can kick that stuff out right? She is like? We can?

I bought her the book "victory over the darkness" by neal t anderson. She says it helped her a lot.

I have to say ive never understood people that dont believe we have free will.

How can a person be in the "bondage of Sin" and be free. Any kind of Bondage is not freedom. And if Jesus had to purchase you by HIS, Blood, you where bought with a price, you do not belong to yourself, now since he has purchase you, He has become Your, LORD meaning Your MASTER! And you have become a Bond Slave! Until you have receive you full inheritance, at your coronation which is Heaven. does any even know any more what the word "LORD" means anymore. A Common Word> Why call me LORD, LORD and do nothing i say? If i am your MASTER you are suppose to obey me! With no questions!

These churches has messed christians up! It is not your fault! l That devil is working hard! This is elementary. Too many christians are reading to many men and women books, they need to read their Bibles, and don't buy cheap ones, and they need to buy "ISBE" and Bible Lexicons, and A Unabridged Dictionary! and Old english Webster Dictionary! And do not skip a biblical word you do not understand. And read your Bible beginning, at Genesis straight threw to Revelation in that order and the 1st year, accomplish this task 7 times in one year! Until the WORD of GOD is running through your nose, in systematic order.

And you are Liar, if you a christian and you say you cannot do it! "because., I can do all things, threw Christ Jesus who strengthens me" With Prayer and supplications! And if you don't do it, it is because you don't want too! "free will" Put your free will in action! Now Will that!

Don't get mad ok, please do not grow "horns"

New King James Version
"Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of ean enemy are deceitful."

Your quote:
I have to say ive never understood people that dont believe we have free will.

have the light come on yet?
"they who sat in darkness saw a Great Light"

 

[Brad Huber]

I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm exploring the question, what does the Bible teach that directly informs our view on abortion?

Thy shall not murder?

 

[Hekuran]

Thy shall not murder?

I raised this in post 6. Exodus 21:22-25 accords a different value to the life of a pregnant woman and to the unborn child. One is compensated as life, the other property.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I raised this in post 6. Exodus 21:22-25 accords a different value to the life of a pregnant woman and to the unborn child. One is compensated as life, the other property.

We live under the New Covennant, Jesus changed everything!

 

[Hekuran]

We live under the New Covennant, Jesus changed everything!

Writing to a Timothy (pastoring a New Covenant church in Ephesus) Paul writes, "All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness so that you may be equipped for every good work"

 

[Brad Huber]

I raised this in post 6. Exodus 21:22-25 accords a different value to the life of a pregnant woman and to the unborn child. One is compensated as life, the other property.

I know you dont value what others are told by the Holy Spirit. Like so many others, if you cant read it in scripture, its not true and even if it is in scripture, other verses might contradict it.

But this is what the Holy Spirit told me.... The women and men who promote abortion are doing something as evil as worship of Molech. God hates abortion.

Link about Molech Who was the Canaanite god Molech?