Should Believers Have a Consciousness of Sin?

[Bendito]

It is distasteful to humiliate anyone, but must point out Rev. 12 is obviously a revelation of the future of the Church and of Israel. In fact, all of Revelation is yet to be seen carried out. Israel is not yet in flight, pursued by the antichrist, who obviously has not even been revealed. Plucking scriptures entirely out of context, especially declaring historical events not yet lived, is always a sign of false teaching.

The need to put on the armor of God is still quite evident.

So how do you think the accuser accuses you to God? Email? But wait! Perhaps you can enlighten us.... There was a war in heaven....When did this war end? Where are we told the dragon can never return? Who is the woman the dragon tormented? Who was the manchild and what happened to him?
It look like Rev 12 speaks about the past present and the future...I guess you had better educate us poor ignorant boogers. OH Oh...And who is the woman?

 

[Dovegiven]

@Dovegiven,

The spirits are subject unto all believers because all power has been given unto Jesus Christ in heaven and in earth. This is why God has given believers power over the devil. Satan cannot win and has been defeated in those that believe. Why, because he has been condemned.

This is still an active commandment:
1 Peter 5:5-9 (KJV)
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

There are no guarantees a Christian has nothing to worry about concerning the Devil.
Concerning pastors in particular:
1 Timothy 3:6-7 (KJV)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Maybe this will help explain. I saw an animal standing on a rock in the yard, looking so proud. I realized that wasn't a wily squirrel, but a foolish pet, a neighbor's guinea pig, usually a very spoiled, helpless creature. Before I could get out there our dog took it easily, snapped it's neck. That's a bit harsh, but exactly what Satan likes to find among us. That weakness is what helps lead to ISIS rounding up a church congregation, beheading them on video, just because they were Christians. Christians are being persecuted all over the world, lacking the protections like we enjoy in America. Satan is in fact still roaming, very much a deadly enemy.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,

It is distasteful to humiliate anyone, but must point out Rev. 12 is obviously a revelation of the future of the Church and of Israel. In fact, all of Revelation is yet to be seen carried out. Israel is not yet in flight, pursued by the antichrist, who obviously has not even been revealed. Plucking scriptures entirely out of context, especially declaring historical events not yet lived, is always a sign of false teaching.
The need to put on the armor of God is still quite evident.

Why would you think I should be or would be humiliated for posting what I believe to be true? So you obviously "do not" believe the devil has been cast down out of Heaven?

The Salvation spoken of happened once; after which, "ALL" power was given unto Jesus Christ in "Heaven" and in "Earth."

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come "salvation," and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the "power of his Christ:" for the accuser of our brethren is "cast down," which accused them before our God day and night.

How many times does the devil need to be cast out of Heaven?

Hebrews 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood "he entered in once into the holy place," (Heaven) having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Jesus entered Heaven with His own blood obtaining Eternal Salvation. This is when Revelation 12:10 was fulfilled.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All" power is given unto me in "heaven" and in "earth."

The Kingdom of God could not be within men unless "Salvation" in Heaven happened. The Kingdom of God is now within men.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the "kingdom of God" is within you.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,
Whoever said the devil was not active? If I'm not mistaken I used 1Corinthians as a reference.

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Who do you think does the tempting?

 

[regibassman57]

@Life,
Side note:
A sinner is redeemed/ransomed and release from the captivity of sin and the nature of sin by a price paid by Jesus Christ. The price Jesus paid was death because the wages of sin or the debt owed to God was death. This is why THER is no sin consciousness.

After the ransom for sins owed was paid, the release of the prisoners from the bondage and nature of sin occurred. Jesus reconciled man back unto God who will no longer "impute" sin unto them. Neither will God remember them as sinners capable of sin and will never remember their sins again. Believers are declared innocent of all charges of sins past, present and future.

The redemption for sins satisfied two main conditions:
1. Payment payed for the release of the prisoner.
2. The release and freedom of the prisoner "from" the captivity of sin.

There are two ways of understanding the redemption process in Christ.
1. Is by faith, believing without seeing.
2. Is by sight, seeing then believing.

Believers are eternally redeemed from sin by faith, without initially seeing. In the process of walking by faith the manifestation of the full sanctification of being redeemed will be revealed as we walk by faith. The just shall live by faith.

If a believer choses to understand the redemption process by sight "first," they will only see their actions as sins because they see "their" physical works which blinds them from faith in what Jesus has truly done for them.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood jesus entered in once into the holy place, having obtained "eternal redemption" for us.

How many times does Jesus Christ redeemed a sinner from sins?

REDEEMED DEFINITION
to buy or pay off; clear by payment:
to buy back, as after a tax sale or a mortgage foreclosure.
to obtain the release or restoration of, as from captivity, by paying a ransom.
Theology. to deliver from sin and its consequences by means of a sacrifice offered for the sinner.

RANSOMED DEFINITION
the redemption of a prisoner, slave, or kidnapped person, of captured goods, etc., for a price.
the sum or price paid or demanded.
a means of deliverance or rescue from punishment for sin, especially the payment of a redemptive fine.

 

[B-A-C]

w many times does Jesus Christ redeemed a sinner from sins?

REDEEMED DEFINITION
to buy or pay off; clear by payment:
to buy back, as after a tax sale or a mortgage foreclosure.
to obtain the release or restoration of, as from captivity, by paying a ransom.
Theology. to deliver from sin and its consequences by means of a sacrifice offered for the sinner.

How times can you buy a car? How many times can you buy a house? Just because something was "paid off" doesn't mean you can't add more debt.
There is a point, where God sees that you aren't really trying to stay out of debt.

2 Pet 2:21; It would have been better for them never to have known the way of life that God approves of than to know it and turn their backs on the holy life God told them to live.
2 Pet 2:22; These proverbs have come true for them: "A dog goes back to its vomit," and "A sow that has been washed goes back to roll around in the mud."

God forgives you as long as you are trying not to "willfully" continue sinning.

If you are climbing a mountain.... you probably won't make it to the top in 5 minutes, in fact in could take days or weeks. This particular mountain takes your entire life.
Now along the way, it's possible you'll make mistakes. You might fall, you might stumble, you might even take a wrong turn or a dead-end path.
It's possible you might run into snow and ice at higher elevations. Almost everyone slips at least a few times.
But stumbling and slipping is completely different from giving up and not climbing the mountain at all. Some people turn around and start walking back down the
mountain, they never try again to climb it. Stumbling and falling doesn't disqualify you. Giving up and turning your back on the mountain does.

 

[regibassman57]

@B-A-C,

How times can you buy a car? How many times can you buy a house? Just because something was "paid off" doesn't mean you can't add more debt.
There is a point, where God sees that you aren't really trying to stay out of debt.

2 Pet 2:21; It would have been better for them never to have known the way of life that God approves of than to know it and turn their backs on the holy life God told them to live.
2 Pet 2:22; These proverbs have come true for them: "A dog goes back to its vomit," and "A sow that has been washed goes back to roll around in the mud."

God forgives you as long as you are trying not to "willfully" continue sinning.
If you are climbing a mountain.... you probably won't make it to the top in 5 minutes, in fact in could take days or weeks. This particular mountain takes your entire life.
Now along the way, it's possible you'll make mistakes. You might fall, you might stumble, you might even take a wrong turn or a dead-end path.
It's possible you might run into snow and ice at higher elevations. Almost everyone slips at least a few times.
But stumbling and slipping is completely different from giving up and not climbing the mountain at all. Some people turn around and start walking back down the
mountain, they never try again to climb it. Stumbling and falling doesn't disqualify you. Giving up and turning your back on the mountain does.

The question that was asked was how many times does "Jesus Christ" redeem a sinner from sins? Man "CANNOT" "redeem himself" as you seem to think with your references and descriptions of what "man" does and must "do." It's not by man's work or efforts; but according to God's mercy He saved us (Tit. 3:5). It was "sin" that separated man from God and life. Salvation minus sin equals life with God.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood "JESUS" entered in "ONCE" into the holy place (Heaven), having obtained "ETERNAL REDEMPTION" for us.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have "redemption" through his blood, the "forgiveness of sins," according to the riches of his grace;

God through Jesus Christ has redeemed and forgiven you "ONCE" "Eternally" when He purged/forgave "ALL" your sins "ONCE" and sat down because He finished the work (Joh. 19:30). This is something the priest of Israel "could not do (Heb. 10:11).

Hebrews 1:3
Jesus being the brightness of his (GOD's) glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself "purged our sins," sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you "ALL" trespasses;

1 John 2:12
I write unto you, little children, because your sins "ARE" forgiven you for his name's sake.

SINS FORGIVEN AT THE "PRESENT" BUT FOR "HOW LONG" DOES SCRIPTURE TEACH?

 

[Dovegiven]

@B-A-C,



The question that was asked was how many times does "Jesus Christ" redeem a sinner from sins? Man "CANNOT" "redeem himself" as you seem to think with your references and descriptions of what "man" does and must "do." It's not by man's work or efforts; but according to God's mercy He saved us (Tit. 3:5). It was "sin" that separated man from God and life. Salvation minus sin equals life with God.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood "JESUS" entered in "ONCE" into the holy place (Heaven), having obtained "ETERNAL REDEMPTION" for us.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have "redemption" through his blood, the "forgiveness of sins," according to the riches of his grace;

God through Jesus Christ has redeemed and forgiven you "ONCE" "Eternally" when He purged/forgave "ALL" your sins "ONCE" and sat down because He finished the work (Joh. 19:30). This is something the priest of Israel "could not do (Heb. 10:11).

Hebrews 1:3
Jesus being the brightness of his (GOD's) glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself "purged our sins," sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you "ALL" trespasses;

1 John 2:12
I write unto you, little children, because your sins "ARE" forgiven you for his name's sake.

SINS FORGIVEN AT THE "PRESENT" BUT FOR "HOW LONG" DOES SCRIPTURE TEACH?

Day by day as one is found to sin in the slightest. We are promised no forgiveness if we don't forgive on a daily basis concerning those who sin against us. Even if one of us were to somehow miraculously never sin again, it's still a requirement to forgive. Salvation in Christ is based on believe + say with the mouth, confessing. There is no reason to think a one-time confessing of faith will do for a lifetime. Every Christian must remain on guard 24/7 like Paul did, whose ministry was constantly under attack by Satan. All the apostles suffered the same, and so do modern day apostles/evangelists/pastors/laymen for Christ, one of fame being held by the Chinese government. Many languish in their prisons, all for the name of Jesus.

 

[Dovegiven]

As for Satan's right to present accusations in heaven, there isn't much evidence supporting any changes. It can be said all angels with reports might meet on another planet to conduct court as prosecuting attorneys. What we have is
Job 1:6-7 (KJV)
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

What is the identity of the other "sons of God" (angels) in that meeting? Where is there a record of that practice being halted? How might Satan, having fallen from heaven in time to bring Adam & Eve down, have been tolerated among the other son so God, usually a reference to angels? Were all those fallen angels coming around to accuse, with God in attendance?

What has changed for sure is what Jesus did for all those calling upon his name, our own High Priest making intercession for us.

For those who make a habit of overcoming sin and the Devil, those are the ones who will enter into glory with Jesus. Meanwhile, obviously the majority of the world population is ignorant of that provision, remaining under the power of Satan. Jesus made the way of escape for all, but few take advantage of the gospel of Christ. Those who do believe are "scarcely" saved.
1 Peter 4:14-19 (KJV)
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,
I don't think you fully understand what Hebrews 9:12 is saying.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in "once" into the holy place, having obtained "eternal redemption" for us.

Eternal Redemption means "forever" beyond the scope of time.

 

[Bendito]

@Dovegiven,
I don't think you fully understand what Hebrews 9:12 is saying.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in "once" into the holy place, having obtained "eternal redemption" for us.

Eternal Redemption means "forever" beyond the scope of time.

I don't know about Dovegiven but I don't see your point

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,

Every time you commit sin, Satan has taken dominon over you because you are condemned with him; only because Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. If you sin, it can only be in the flesh. Satan is the god in the flesh of tares, he has been overcome in the spirit by Jesus. All power has been given unto Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin "is" death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin separates a man from Eternal Life. Eternal Life is Jesus Christ. You either have the Gift, or you have sin and death. You cannot have both. The wages of sin "IS" death (in a present tense). It did not say it "WAS"death (in the past tense).

 

[regibassman57]

@Bendito,@Dovegiven,

I don't know about Dovegiven but I don't see your point

What do you think Hebrew 9:12 is saying?

 

[Bendito]

@Bendito,@Dovegiven,


What do you think Hebrew 9:12 is saying?

Its saying....
Hebrews 9:9-14 (CJB)

9 This symbolizes the present age and indicates that the conscience of the person performing the service cannot be brought to the goal by the gifts and sacrifices he offers. 10 For they involve only food and drink and various ceremonial washings — regulations concerning the outward life, imposed until the time for God to reshape the whole structure.

11 But when the Messiah appeared as cohen gadol of the good things that are happening already, then, through the greater and more perfect Tent which is not man-made (that is, it is not of this created world), 12 he entered the Holiest Place once and for all.

And he entered not by means of the blood of goats and calves, but by means of his own blood, thus setting people free forever. 13 For if sprinkling ceremonially unclean persons with the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer restores their outward purity; 14 then how much more the blood of the Messiah, who, through the eternal Spirit, offered himself to God as a sacrifice without blemish, will purify our conscience from works that lead to death, so that we can serve the living God!
Just what it says...But again....not that you understand the concept....Nothing is automatic...One has to recieve it and walk in it

 

[regibassman57]

@Bendito,

Its saying....
Hebrews 9:9-14 (CJB)
But again....not that you understand the concept....Nothing is automatic...One has to recieve it and walk in it

Thanks for answering the question... I would have responded sooner, but I never got a post message that you'd replied. I happen to be going through my posts and found it. Though you used scripture, without explaining your personal understanding, it doesn't shed light on the initial question about "redemption" that Hebrews 9:12 is talking about.

The scriptures you posted, Hebrews verses 9-14, are teaching the blood of bulls and goats "could not" make the priest's perfect pertaining to their consciousness where sin was concerned. This is why man could not be "redeemed" eternally as Hebrews 9:12 is speaking about.

Hebrews 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that "could not" make him that did the service "perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;"

We know if those sacrifices could have made the people perfect in conscious, they would not have had a consciousness of sin as scripture teaches.

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:2
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

When we reference the blood of bulls and goats for confirmation of what's being said, we know exactly what the people/priest could not be made perfect from under the law. I'm choosing to given insight for edification as I see what the scriptures are saying as the spirit gives me the understanding.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:11
And every priest stands daily ministering and offering oftentimes the "same" sacrifices, which can "never" take away sins:

This is why Hebrews 9:12 is so important among the other scriptures. We are taught believers have "Eternal Redemption" from "sin" as we understand and consider "all" the scriptures on the subject. Scriptures tells us "specifically" what, when, and how long we've been redeemed from sin.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood Jesus entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The scriptures give us the understanding of why Jesus entered into the "Holy place once for all" with His blood. We can say what scripture says, and rest in our conscious knowing the reason why God is not imputing sin unto believers.

 

[Dovegiven]

Salvation in Christ is so simple, yet many will not receive due to reason, logic, carnal thinking, letting that cancel faith.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,

Salvation in Christ is so simple, yet many will not receive due to reason, logic, carnal thinking, letting that cancel faith.

Salvation from sin is simple because that is impossible for a man to work for. Eternal Life is obtained as Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler in Matthew 19 and the lawyer in Luke 10. If a person doesn't hear Jesus' words, they cannot have life. It is this simple. Obedience is always better than sacrifice.

Scripture tells us specifically how faith is canceled.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

Israel was made righteous in the flesh according to the law, but under this new covenant, only the blood of Jesus is sufficient to justify a believer making him or her Righteous in spirit.

 

[Dave M]

The Holy Ghost is not convicting a believer of sin; the Spirit is conviction the “world” of sin. Of sin because the people of the world “do not” believe. This is why the people killed Stephen because they were convicted in themselves by what he was preaching

 

[regibassman57]

@Dave,
Is there a point you would like to make?

 

[Dovegiven]

So how do you think the accuser accuses you to God? Email? But wait! Perhaps you can enlighten us.... There was a war in heaven....When did this war end? Where are we told the dragon can never return? Who is the woman the dragon tormented? Who was the manchild and what happened to him?
It look like Rev 12 speaks about the past present and the future...I guess you had better educate us poor ignorant boogers. OH Oh...And who is the woman?

@Dovegiven,
I don't think you fully understand what Hebrews 9:12 is saying.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in "once" into the holy place, having obtained "eternal redemption" for us.

Eternal Redemption means "forever" beyond the scope of time.

That verse has to do with Jesus only entering and sacrificing once, making the final atonement (appeasement), contrasted against the flesh priesthood having to keep doing that with blood of animals daily. Why pluck the one verse out, missing the main point (Reggie)? What did that have to do with my comment anyway? And how does that fit into the topic title? Would Reggie support your use of his comment?

Rev 12:1 has the woman's identity as only possibly Israel the nation as set in the middle of the tribulation, the middle of Daniel's 70th week. It isn't the Church, as we are out of there in Rev 4. Again, why try to apply that in this thread?