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Sabbath

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New Member
wow thanx everyone for the comments here, however the main issue has still been skirted with holding this discussion the confussion in one sister was allowed to fester i fear. Mouse was over-looked in all this. wow i got lots of posting to do ... but in the mean time look at these 3 entries(in the Gospels) Matthew 12:1>8 ; Mark 2:23>28 ; Luke 6:1>5 there is enough said in the parables. As for the Old and New Covenants are concerned, I recently put a thread on the Lounge Forum, called The Bible i believe, to date I have had no reason to alter my views on that matter. Jesus also has made several remarks on keeping the Gospels since God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit are all one it stands to reason the Gospels contain the Laws of God which is the first 5 books of the O.T. and in the Jewish Bible the Torah.

Mouse plz look at those Gospel enteries I just posted ... the Sabbath is a day of rest ... on that day of rest you must give praise to God through Jesus as long as that is done the Sabbath is maintained ... Man, not Jesus put a day to the sabbath

again thank you all for the posts It warms my heart to see so may discuss the Lord so vigorously agape my Brothers and sisters
 
New Member
If we are to keep the Sabbath, we are to keep the whole law also. And the whole law isn't the 10 commandments, as some here seem to suggest. Among the whole law commands is circumcision, would those who say we should keep the Sabbath also agree we should circumcise our male children?


I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!
 
New Member
Sabbath

It is often claimed that "God instituted the Sabbath in Eden" because of the connection between the Sabbath and creation in Exodus 20:11. Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath-keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a special sign between God and Israel: "And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine'" (Exodus 19:3–5).

“Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed” (Exodus 31:16–17).


In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15).

Notice the word therefore. God's intent for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but that they would remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance. Note the requirements for Sabbath-keeping: A person placed under that Sabbath law could not leave his home on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29), he could not build a fire (Exodus 35:3), and he could not cause anyone else to work (Deuteronomy 5:14). A person breaking the Sabbath law was to be put to death (Exodus 31:15; Numbers 15:32–35).

An examination of New Testament passages shows us four important points: 1) Whenever Christ appears in His resurrected form and the day is mentioned, it is always the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1, 9, 10; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1, 13, 15; John 20:19, 26). 2) The only time the Sabbath is mentioned from Acts through Revelation it is for evangelistic purposes to the Jews and the setting is usually in a synagogue (Acts chapters 13–18). Paul wrote, "to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews" (1 Corinthians 9:20). Paul did not go to the synagogue to fellowship with and edify the saints, but to convict and save the lost. 3) Once Paul states "from now on I will go to the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6), the Sabbath is never again mentioned. And 4) instead of suggesting adherence to the Sabbath day, the remainder of the New Testament implies the opposite (including the one exception to point 3 above, found in Colossians 2:16).

Looking more closely at point 4 above will reveal that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath, and will also show that the idea of a Sunday "Christian Sabbath" is also unscriptural. As discussed above, there is one time the Sabbath is mentioned after Paul began to focus on the Gentiles, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Colossians 2:16–17). The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us" (Colossians 2:14).

This idea is repeated more than once in the New Testament: "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it" (Romans 14:5–6a). "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years" (Galatians 4:9–10).

But some claim that a mandate by Constantine in A.D. 321 "changed" the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. On what day did the early church meet for worship? Scripture never mentions any Sabbath (Saturday) gatherings by believers for fellowship or worship. However, there are clear passages that mention the first day of the week. For instance, Acts 20:7 states that "on the first day of the week the disciples came together to break bread." In 1 Corinthians 16:2 Paul urges the Corinthian believers "on the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper." Since Paul designates this offering as "service" in 2 Corinthians 9:12, this collection must have been linked with the Sunday worship service of the Christian assembly. Historically Sunday, not Saturday, was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.

The Sabbath was given to Israel, not the church. The Sabbath is still Saturday, not Sunday, and has never been changed. But the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law, and Christians are free from the bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:1-26; Romans 6:14). Sabbath keeping is not required of the Christian—be it Saturday or Sunday. The first day of the week, Sunday, the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10) celebrates the New Creation, with Christ as our resurrected Head. We are not obligated to follow the Mosaic Sabbath—resting, but are now free to follow the risen Christ—serving. The Apostle Paul said that each individual Christian should decide whether to observe a Sabbath rest, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind” (Romans 14:5). We are to worship God every day, not just on Saturday or Sunday.
Romans 11.16If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. 17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; 18don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you.

If the 'Church' is in Israel, sabbath still applies. It is a blessing to us. Food for thought.
 
New Member
The Seventh Day

The Seventh Day Sabbath
In over one hundred languages throughout the world the seventh day is called ‘sabbath’ or its equivalent. Thus historically, the seventh day has never been just a day of rest for the Jews, but a day of rest for all peoples, recognised anciently as such in numerous cultures. This idea is confirmed for us in both the old testament and new testament of the scriptures. In Isaiah 56 the Lord declares through His prophet: “Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold upon it: that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord speak, saying, the Lord hath utterly separated me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths and choose the things that please me and take hold of my covenant; even unto them will I give in my house and within my walls a place and a name better than the of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger that join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it and taketh hold of my covenant; even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer.” Isaiah 56:2-7
And in the NT Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. Man in that context was a generic term meaning mankind.

444 ανθρωπος anthropos anth’-ro-pos

from 435 and ops (the countenance, from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being; TDNT-1:364,59;n m

AV-man 552, not tr 4, misc 3; 559

1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or promptedto sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
1g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman





The Jewish people were blessed with something unique and very special. It was something which God intended they share with gentiles, for God always intended that all peoples should know Him. The pagan nations around Israel had their fertility rites, their initiations, their icons, their statues and idols. But Israel had a day. This day set them apart. But rather than share the Sabbath with others, Israel repeatedly ignored, neglected, or polluted it by introducing pagan practices into their religion. Israel's time in Babylon cured them of this malady, but by the time of Christ they had moved to the other extreme and burdened the Sabbath with so many additional laws and regulations the day had become a curse rather than a blessing.



Jesus came to reveal how the Sabbath was intended to be kept and to free it from the encumbrances of legalism. To heal on the Sabbath was scandalous to the rabbis. They accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath, and because Jesus had such huge support and influence, it was partly through fear that the whole nation would begin ‘desecrating’ the Sabbath and of the subsequent judgments of God that the leaders of the nation sought to kill Him, “But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.” John 11:49,50, and that finally led to His crucifixion.


Jesus had numerous opportunities to speak of how the Sabbath was going to be changed or done away with. But rather than do this, all His discussions, debates and arguments with the rabbis were focused on how the Sabbath was to be kept. He defied the human traditions and yes, Jesus did break the Sabbath: He broke it free from the rigid guidelines that made it a burden, and a rigid formality.



The early Christians saw the Christian faith as a progression, not a new religion. Calvary gave the Sabbath new significance, but did not annul it. Christians were worshipping alongside Jews in the synagogues every Sabbath, but over a period of time Jews became less tolerant of this arrangement and the rabbis actually devised prayers that were to be said which exposed the Christians within the community. This made it very uncomfortable for Christians to continue meeting in the synagogues, but they did not forsake the Sabbath. They began to meet in their houses and in places like the riversides as Paul found in Thyatira. Eventually, Christians found it impossible to worship in the synagogues and about that same time found themselves questioning their connections to the Jews, and with good reason. Much conflict around the early second century between the Jews and Rome began to impact the church. Not wanting to be recognized by Rome as being sympathetic or in any way involved with the Jews, some Christians began to abandon the Sabbath in favour of Sunday, which became an attractive alternative.


At this time also Sun worship increased in popularity with Rome. Mithra was particularly popular with the military, and Sunday became increasingly significant throughout the empire. Constantine established the first Sunday law in 321ad, and the church of Rome shortly thereafter adopted that day as its own. As late as the 5<sup>th</sup> century however there were still a majority of Christian churches that were still observing the Sabbath. The church leaders in Rome strongly encouraged resting on Sunday in accordance to the law, while at the same time imposing fasts and other strictures on the Sabbath. Councils such as that of Laodicea in the mid 4<sup>th</sup> century recognized the continuing popularity of the Sabbath observance, and instituted canons to further enforce Sunday and demote the Sabbath. Churches that abandoned the Sabbath altogether however were very much in the minority, as attested to by Socrates scholasticus when he wrote in the 4<sup>th</sup> century “ For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.”



Despite theological arguments, anti-jewish prejudice, and empirical decrees, the Sabbath was still honoured well into the 5<sup>th</sup> century. It was not dead. In fact, the Sabbath issue became a greatly heated debate between popes and patriarchs throughout the ensuing centuries, and became a test of authority. Sunday became the sign of submission to papal authority, and was a major cause of the great rift within the Christian faith that remained for 900 years.

In addition to that, there were pockets of resistance to the papal persecutions re Sabbath keeping throughout the ensuing dark ages, and ironically it was only when coming into connection with theProtestant churches in the reformation period that those Sabbath keeping churches relented.


With that history in mind, let us forever lay to rest the idea that Jesus or the apostles, or the scriptures themselves for that matter, had anything to do with any change or annulment of the seventh day Sabbath. Let us, at least in this matter, agree with the Church of Rome that responsibility for such a change can be laid squarely upon her shoulders. For it was the leaders, the popes, cardinals and bishops of that church who down through the ages from the 3<sup>rd</sup> century to the present day deliberately exalted Sunday and erroneously named that day the Lord’s Day; meanwhile persecuting Sabbath keepers, labelling them, among other things as Judaisers and heretics, and have trampled upon the true Lord’s day and cast it aside.

It remains for the Christian today to “choose this day whom ye will serve”. It is for you friend to decide upon whose authority your faith is surrendered to. The Creator of the “heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and all that in them is”, or the prelates and lawmakers of the Catholic church, the foster parents of the counterfeit day of rest and worship, the day of the Sun.
 
New Member
In Deuteronomy 5; Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15).

.....

The Sabbath was given to Israel, not the church. The Sabbath is still Saturday, not Sunday, and has never been changed. But the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law, and Christians are free from the bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:1-26; Romans 6:14). Sabbath keeping is not required of the Christian—be it Saturday or Sunday. .
The reason for the Sabbath is stated differently in Ex 31:13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying, 'Most certainly you shall keep my Sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies you." also in Eze 20:12 "Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies them."

Keeping the Sabbath is to remind us of our sanctification.

Yes those who repent are free from the bondage of the Law, this means they are free from the power of sin to give death. This does not exempt us from upholding the commandments.
Romans 6: 8But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; 9knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him! 10For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.12Therefore don't let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts
 

DHC

The reason for the Sabbath is stated differently in Ex 31:13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying, 'Most certainly you shall keep my Sabbaths: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies you." also in Eze 20:12 "Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies them."

Keeping the Sabbath is to remind us of our sanctification.

Yes those who repent are free from the bondage of the Law, this means they are free from the power of sin to give death. This does not exempt us from upholding the commandments.
Romans 6: 8But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; 9knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him! 10For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. 11Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.12Therefore don't let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts
Hello Alyse.

An interesting topic 'the Sabbath' and a topic that sometimes becomes rather heated.
What we endeavor to do is to always read the scripture very carefully. In doing this
we can be confident that we are behaving the way Jesus want's us to behave.

I noticed that you quoted from the book of Exodus, Alyse. The verse explains that
'YHWH' is speaking to the Israelites or children of Israel. These Israelites are a nation
of people that are the refugees from Egypt. The Israelites are not related to the Gentile nations!

God is not instructing the Gentile nations to obey the sabbath in this verse, God is telling the
nation of Israel that they must obey the sabbath. You will need to quote the verses where
God specifically instructs the Gentiles to obey the sabbath. We need hard Biblical evidence
and not inference.
 
New Member
I was simply stating the reason for the Sabbath in response to what chad posted as the reason for the Sabbath. However, it is my belief that based on Romans 11 believing gentiles are "grafted" into Israel.
 

DHC

I was simply stating the reason for the Sabbath in response to what chad posted as the reason for the Sabbath. However, it is my belief that based on Romans 11 believing gentiles are "grafted" into Israel.
Hello Alyse.

Thanks for the reply and I understand the intention of your previous post. If you do not
mind Alyse, could you quote the verse from Romans eleven and how you read it. So that
I can see how you derive your idea that the Gentiles become (grafted) into Israel?
 
New Member
Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree;

The branches that were broken off are the Israelites who did not accept the Messiah. The gentiles are the wild olive grafted into the tree root that is Israel and gains the richness of the olive tree meaning the promises.
 

DHC

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree;

The branches that were broken off are the Israelites who did not accept the Messiah. The gentiles are the wild olive grafted into the tree root that is Israel and gains the richness of the olive tree meaning the promises.
Hello Alyse.

Now I see how you are reading this verse, the root of the olive tree is Israel?

If we read this verse again Alyse, the verse actually is not saying what you think it says.

The branches that were broken off the olive tree are the non believing Israelites, yes I agree.

The wild olive branch grafted into the root are the believing Gentiles, yes and I agree again.

But the wild olive (Gentiles) is not grafted into the branches Alyse that have been removed (Israelites).

The wild olive is grafted into the root itself which is Christ.

Please read the verse again carefully and see that the branches themselves are Israel.

The verse does not say that Israel is the root of the olive tree!
 

DHC

I did not say the wild olive is grafted into the braches I said the wild olive was grafted into the tree root
Hello alyse.

Yes, but the root is not Israel.
The gentiles are the wild olive grafted into the tree root that is Israel

Israel are the branches, alyse, and we are grafted in among the believing branches.
The root of the olive tree is Christ and not Israel.
 
Active Member
Hopefully, some understanding.If i were born in Washington D.C but now live in Texas,would I still have to follow the laws in Washington D.C which govern that state? Of course not. When I was born a gentile, the laws of the Jews never ever concerned me,I was never under them to start with. hehe( rom 2:14-16) Why would I look to become a law to myself anyway?? LOL ( rom 14:5-12)) If you choose a day over another, that is fine! Same for you! What does concern me about some,is that they want us to go back to the shadows, when we are suppose to stay in the light.( heb 10:1)
 
New Member
Never Changing

Malachi 3:6"For I, Yahweh, don't change; therefore you, sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
7From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my ordinances, and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says Yahweh of Armies..

Yahweh never changes. He will want his people to obey his commands always.
Did Yahushua (Jesus) ever tell the people to not keep Torah or the Sabbath? Yahushua said "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. 18For verily I say to you, Till heaven and earth shall pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do, and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. " Matthew ch 5:17-19

There are still prophecies that have not been fulfilled. How can you argue against this, Yahushua is clearly saying you will be least in the kingdom of heaven is you disobey any of the command sin the Torah. He could not be referring to any other commands, he refers the Torah just before that statement. Do you want to be least in the kingdom of heaven?

In no way could Yahushua contradict Yahweh and Yahweh's commands
John 4:34
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
 

DHC

Malachi 3:6"For I, Yahweh, don't change; therefore you, sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
7From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my ordinances, and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says Yahweh of Armies..

Yahweh never changes. He will want his people to obey his commands always.
Hello Alyse.

Your viewpoint that you must obey the law is incorrect on a number of points.

The nation of Israel was under the law, the Gentile nations are not told that they are under the law. Your
understanding of the scripture is a consequence of reading the Bible and disregarding the context of the
scripture.

When Jesus talks about the law, remember that Jesus was addressing the Jews in this regard. Jesus was
born in Israel and under the law. Gentiles are outside the old covenant that God established with Israel.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law

Paul tells us that the law speaks to those who were under the law. Those under the law are
the Jews and the Old Testament is very clear that Israel was the chosen nation that was given
the law at Mt Sinai.

We are not considered righteous by observing the law Alyse.

Romans 3
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight;

You cannot be justified by any legal obedience if you are an Israelite. No Gentile could ever attempt
legal obedience, as the Gentiles were never given the law to start with.

Romans 3
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Our justification is a gift! We live under Grace and not under the law.
 
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