revival

[aaroncam85]

do you believe the church in the west is becoming dry and stale? if yes, where are we going wrong? do we need a spiritual revival amongst western christians?

 

[His_will_i_am]

do you believe the church in the west is becoming dry and stale?

I would say that the Body in the west has been sick for a very long time, longer than many people would care to admit.

if yes, where are we going wrong?

There are many erros in which His people need to repent; structure, separation from sin, lack of godly discipline amongst the assemblies, mixtures with wordliness, business versus service mentalities, etc... One could go on and on with points of deviation.

do we need a spiritual revival amongst western christians?

I would say that we need a restoration or a return to the Way which our ancestors walked in.

 

[aaroncam85]

i know this may be a little long for you but could you give a bit more detail to your answers just i want to understand more and at least make a difference where i am.

 

[His_will_i_am]

When one honestly reads the Scriptures, there are many differences between what the apostles taught, established, and demonstrated and the things which many are used to today.

For instance, the vast number of our assemblies operate according to a set program and only a limited number of people are actually allowed to operate in their callings and functions. Whereas in the Scripture, we are told that our gatherings are supposed to be openly particpatory. This doesn't mean that anarchy is to be allowed, but everyone is supposed to come to each assembly prepared to share a song, a psalm, a teaching, etc... Surely, the model of assembly which encourages and enables most people to be pew warmers during our gatherings should be obviously deviant from what the Lord and His apostles set forth.

Then we have the 'pastor' controlled model of leadership. Whereas in Scripture we are told that our assemblies are supposed to be led by a plurality of elders, the more spiritually mature, and they aren't there to dictate what everyone is supposed to do. they are simply there to help guide and maintain purity.

Then we have vast sections of the Body who don't believe in the existance or operation of certain callings and giftings on one end. On ther other, we have those who accept them, but really have no idea what they are doing and end up accepting flawed imitations and abuses as from God.

Our assemblies are also operated like businesses with the leader filling the role of CEO, rather than looking like and operating more as a family reunion of sorts.

There's just a lot of things which many people have grown up with and accept which differentiate what they are part of from the faith which was given.

 

[Boanerges]

do you believe the church in the west is becoming dry and stale? if yes, where are we going wrong? do we need a spiritual revival amongst western christians?

Some "western" churches are sick, some are dead dry religious tombs but others are alive and on fire for God. God is moving greatly anywhere the hearts of the people are turned fully to Him.
Our home church has seen almost 3/4 of a million people come to Christ through it's outreaches and the presence of God is breathtaking. Pastor's from all overt he globe have testified that revival started in their churches when they came to our local house of God and where touched. This body of believers has been in revival for almost 10 years.
Anywhere people are really hungry for God, not hung up on religion and willing to be His hands and feet then you will find Him moving.

 

[Boanerges]

Then we have the 'pastor' controlled model of leadership. Whereas in Scripture we are told that our assemblies are supposed to be led by a plurality of elders, the more spiritually mature, and they aren't there to dictate what everyone is supposed to do. they are simply there to help guide and maintain purity.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

One should not criticize others because they are different from you. There are many members in the body of Christ and the come in many "flavors" or different styles. Pastor is one of the five fold ministries given to us by God Himself and the word pastor translates shepherd. If God gave us these 5 offices then they must be as needful as the 9 fruits of the Spirit and the 9 gifts of the Spirit.

 

[derek6711]

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

One should not criticize others because they are different from you. There are many members in the body of Christ and the come in many "flavors" or different styles. Pastor is one of the five fold ministries given to us by God Himself and the word pastor translates shepherd. If God gave us these 5 offices then they must be as needful as the 9 fruits of the Spirit and the 9 gifts of the Spirit.

I agree, we are supposed to help out our fellow believers and help each other stay on track and be an encouragement

 

[His_will_i_am]

One should not criticize others because they are different from you. There are many members in the body of Christ and the come in many "flavors" or different styles. Pastor is one of the five fold ministries given to us by God Himself and the word pastor translates shepherd. If God gave us these 5 offices then they must be as needful as the 9 fruits of the Spirit and the 9 gifts of the Spirit.

Why would you characterize me as being critical of others when all that I did was point out the differences between the assemblies modeled in the Scripture against those which most people are familiar with today? Never have I said that the role of pastor/shepherd isn't needful. But I do say that the role as it's demonstrated in most assemblies today has become perverted from that which the Lord intended.

If you can demonstrate that I'm wrong, then by all means do so. But if you don't like what I've stated simply because I am challenging the status quo, don't try to use the 'critical' route.

 

[Boanerges]

Why would you characterize me as being critical of others when all that I did was point out the differences between the assemblies modeled in the Scripture against those which most people are familiar with today? Never have I said that the role of pastor/shepherd isn't needful. But I do say that the role as it's demonstrated in most assemblies today has become perverted from that which the Lord intended.

If you can demonstrate that I'm wrong, then by all means do so. But if you don't like what I've stated simply because I am challenging the status quo, don't try to use the 'critical' route.

Nothing personal. I see so many who complain about the church but most do little to support or pray for her. I also see so many who diss everyone that seems different so being defensive may just be a habit.
Paul and the rest of the Apostles would gladly use auditoriums, PA systems, differnt venues and etc if they were here today. They would gladly be "all things to all men" to reach them for Christ. While the Word of God gives us parameters the Holy Spirit gives us the freedom to be the people we are in Christ. If that is different that others before us that does nothing to preclude revival or any move of God. In fact if you travel in the right circles God is doing great things daily.
So no, nothing personal, I just do not see bemoaning what others are doing or not doing- just live daily for Christ and He will be pleased.

 

[His_will_i_am]

Paul and the rest of the Apostles would gladly use auditoriums, PA systems, differnt venues and etc if they were here today.

No doubt. But these things are simply tools. They have nothing to do with the spirit which an assembly or minister may be operating in.

While the Word of God gives us parameters the Holy Spirit gives us the freedom to be the people we are in Christ. If that is different that others before us that does nothing to preclude revival or any move of God. In fact if you travel in the right circles God is doing great things daily.
So no, nothing personal, I just do not see bemoaning what others are doing or not doing- just live daily for Christ and He will be pleased.

If we're not doing things as we were shown, according to His Spirit, then we can't possibly be living for Christ, at best we are living for self. The freedom in Christ which is found in Him isn't a license to deviate from His examples and teachings. But in fact, it's only through doing things as He and His apostles set forth that we can actually walk in that freedom, other wise that freedom which one walks in is actually bondage.

 

[jiggyfly]

Here's an interesting question. Paul and many of the other apostles went to the temple(s) and synagogues to evangelize. In light of this where do you think they would go today?

 

[Boanerges]

No doubt. But these things are simply tools. They have nothing to do with the spirit which an assembly or minister may be operating in.



If we're not doing things as we were shown, according to His Spirit, then we can't possibly be living for Christ, at best we are living for self. The freedom in Christ which is found in Him isn't a license to deviate from His examples and teachings. But in fact, it's only through doing things as He and His apostles set forth that we can actually walk in that freedom, other wise that freedom which one walks in is actually bondage.

First I would agree that those things are simply tools or venues. Second to question the "spirit which they are operating in" has to be done individually. The places I hang out are Holy Ghost filled and directed.
Second, God is always doing a fresh thing and those things I have witnessed are in no way in contradiction to the Word of God. Perhaps you are just hanging out in an old line dead denomination or some fringe groups. There are plenty of Spirit filled, Spirit lead churches that are in the very center of God's will. This is evident by the godly fruit they are producing and the people they are reaching.
It is obvious to me that the Apostles would gladly use all the resources available today with no contradiction .
My friend Jiggyfly must have been reading my mind when he posted that the Apostles indeed used the pulpits in the synagogues to preach and those are the exact equivalent of our churches. So the only apparent contradiction is in the mind of some.

 

[His_will_i_am]

Paul and many of the other apostles went to the temple(s) and synagogues to evangelize. In light of this where do you think they would go today?

Without a doubt, the firts place that they would go is to our assembly places. But unfortunately, because of the current structure of most instituionalized assemblies, they wouldn't even have the freedom to stand up and address the assembly without asking the 'pastors' for permission and first explaining to the 'pastor' what they're going to share before they share it. Then, if they are even allowed to speak, in most assemblies, they'd be run out of the building by the 'ushers' and told that if they ever returned they'd be arrested for trespassing. Of course, after all of this happens the leadership would be busy trying to perform damage control and stifling and questioning or pondering by the 'sheep'.

Great question.

Second to question the "spirit which they are operating in" has to be done individually.

That's not true at all. Look at the first 3 chapters of revelations and you'll see descriptions of different spirits at work amongst entire assemblies which the Lord was finding issue with.

The places I hang out are Holy Ghost filled and directed.

Are you sure? Can I test that declaration? If so would you prefer it to be in public or privately?

Second, God is always doing a fresh thing and those things I have witnessed are in no way in contradiction to the Word of God.

Perhaps it's because you don't know any better, or don't want to know any better? The vast majority of believers simply don't want to acknowledge any deviations/sin in their assemblies because that would mean that they are responsible to address those deviations and interrupt the staus quo.

There are plenty of Spirit filled, Spirit lead churches that are in the very center of God's will. This is evident by the godly fruit they are producing and the people they are reaching.

I agree. But the vast, vast majority of believers, at lest here in the West, only think that they are part of such an assembly, when in fact they are still in captivity to Babylon. Again, when it comes to fruit from my travels around the country, U.S.A, and in Canada and Mexico, the supposed fruit is actually only numbers versus actual good fruit, at best.

My friend Jiggyfly must have been reading my mind when he posted that the Apostles indeed used the pulpits in the synagogues to preach and those are the exact equivalent of our churches. So the only apparent contradiction is in the mind of some.

Really? Have you read the Scripture or done even a little bit of research into early Christianity or Judaism?

If so, how can you possibly say that what Paul and the rest of teh apostles experienced and taught is the exact equivalent to our assemblies today? For instance, in the Jewish Synagogue assemblies, everyone was expected to contribute to the meeting, with no one control the flow of it. We see numerous accounts in the Scripture itself describing how my Lord and His apostles would enter the synagogues and teach, even when they were strangers to the assembly! Even today in the Synagogues, the members are expected to participate in some form, not just sit there looking at the back of each others heads.

In today's 'christian' assemblies, this just simply isn't possible, what with the building being considered some person or organizations private property. These places have become people's private kingdoms versus houses devoted to God and His people. I dare any of you to walk into, even your home assembly, and take the pulpit without permission and simply start to deliver a message or teaching without running it by the pastor or priest. Just to see the reaction.

I'd like to say that I'm not trying to condemn anyone, just pointing out the truth. Again, if I'm wrong in anything which I've said, show me where and how, preferably through Scripture. But if you can't then it must be the truth.

 

[Boanerges]

If you just like to argue (which is how it seems) I see no point in discussion.
Nor do I need to verify the presence and power of God to please a religious spirit.
In fact I am quite sure you will be able to continue nit picking and fault finding without me so I think it best I exit this "discussion".
Have a blessed day.

 

[His_will_i_am]

If you just like to argue (which is how it seems) I see no point in discussion.
Nor do I need to verify the presence and power of God to please a religious spirit.
In fact I am quite sure you will be able to continue nit picking and fault finding without me so I think it best I exit this "discussion".

Come on, Boanerges. Don't use a cop out. A follower of Christ is supposed to be a lover and seeker of truth. If anything which I've said is wrong, it should be easy to prove or demonstrate. No one's arguing here, as far as I can tell. It just really seems that I may truly be exposing some modern deviations which much of the Body, including yourself, may walk in and condone/justify.

 

[rjones]

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!
REVIVAL! REVIVAL!
Glory to God Almighty. We all could benefit from a revival in our lives.

Brother aaroncam85,
What are your thoughts on the questions you have asked?