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Revelation's Mystery Author? Rev 1:1 Suggests a Third-Party Author

Veridican

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2022
Messages
28
« on: January 03, 2022, 11:15:56 PM »

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that a mysterious person actually wrote Revelation? Look at 1:1. It reads:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant, John, (Rev 1:1, NIV 1984 ed.)

Okay...so... God gave Jesus a revelation of the things that must soon take place. Jesus then made it known to John by sending his angel to John. ...all well and good, BUT...

Who's doing the talking here? Rev 1:1-3 sounds like a third party. I'm not saying I believe this, but I started an exegesis of Revelation today, and it just popped out at me. I've never heard anyone ever suggest it before.

What is your take on it?
 
« on: January 03, 2022, 11:15:56 PM »

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that a mysterious person actually wrote Revelation? Look at 1:1. It reads:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant, John, (Rev 1:1, NIV 1984 ed.)

Okay...so... God gave Jesus a revelation of the things that must soon take place. Jesus then made it known to John by sending his angel to John. ...all well and good, BUT...

Who's doing the talking here? Rev 1:1-3 sounds like a third party. I'm not saying I believe this, but I started an exegesis of Revelation today, and it just popped out at me. I've never heard anyone ever suggest it before.

What is your take on it?
John used the third person in other places as well.
 
Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that a mysterious person actually wrote Revelation? Look at 1:1. It reads:

Heard this theory before. Wikipedia mentions it as well.
But it's John.
 
Now I get it . Another in the long list of special insider only knowledge guys, usually related to the Apocalypse and claiming unusually accurate awareness of the short term future.
'I dont think so Tim'
 
John used the third person in other places as well.

John? What John? The Gospels are all anonymous.

Heard this theory before. Wikipedia mentions it as well.
But it's John.


No, I'm not talking about the ambiguity of "John." I'm talking about the first three verses of Revelation. They seem to actually be from another person.
 
« on: January 03, 2022, 11:15:56 PM »

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that a mysterious person actually wrote Revelation? Look at 1:1. It reads:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant, John, (Rev 1:1, NIV 1984 ed.)

Okay...so... God gave Jesus a revelation of the things that must soon take place. Jesus then made it known to John by sending his angel to John. ...all well and good, BUT...

Who's doing the talking here? Rev 1:1-3 sounds like a third party. I'm not saying I believe this, but I started an exegesis of Revelation today, and it just popped out at me. I've never heard anyone ever suggest it before.

What is your take on it?
That seems plausible to me. Though it wouldn't have to be a mysterious person, just an unknown person. Perhaps John wrote directly to the seven churches, then an unknown benefactor produced many more copies making it more widely available throughout the church, and adding an introductory note at the beginning.

Just as likely, John is introducing the letter in the third person.

That's pure speculation on my part - who know for sure? - it's an interesting historical point, but I don't think anything in our understanding of Revelation hangs on it.
 
Veridican said:
Hello Talk Jesus people.

I'm looking forward to hanging out in here and having fellowship with other people who love Jesus Christ. My profile has a short bio, so I won't repeat it here in this post, but I do want to say that I love Jesus Christ, and I follow only Jesus Christ.

Bovine excrement.
It is especially vile to name the name of Christ as you have above , claiming love Christ and being a seeker of fellowship with others who love Christ while knowing full well the christ you speak of is by no means the Person we ALL refer to as Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Trinity. It is entirely dishonest on your part.
 
That seems plausible to me. Though it wouldn't have to be a mysterious person, just an unknown person. Perhaps John wrote directly to the seven churches, then an unknown benefactor produced many more copies making it more widely available throughout the church, and adding an introductory note at the beginning.

Just as likely, John is introducing the letter in the third person.

That's pure speculation on my part - who know for sure? - it's an interesting historical point, but I don't think anything in our understanding of Revelation hangs on it.

Actually, I completely agree with the way you've summed that up. We don't have the original copy of Revelation. The earliest we have is a scrap that is estimated to have come from around 275 AD. But it does do one thing, at least for me. It assures me that I have ears to hear. I can see things in Revelation others have not. And so it gives me confidence to write the manuscript I feel chosen to write explaining Revelation. A lot of people have done that. A lot--just check out Amazon. But in all of that, and throughout Church history, no on has ever seen that in Rev 1:1. I may be the first.
 
Bovine excrement.
It is especially vile to name the name of Christ as you have above , claiming love Christ and being a seeker of fellowship with others who love Christ while knowing full well the christ you speak of is by no means the Person we ALL refer to as Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Trinity. It is entirely dishonest on your part.
How dare you judge me? Who are you to tell me I'm lying about Christ. And what gives you the right to say "we all refer to..." How do you know the mind of every person in this forum? It seems to me that for you, Christianity is just a weapon to use against other people. You're a Church bully. I've been dealing with your spirit my whole life it seems. And by the way, just as a side note here, if you think it's wrong to swear, you're just as guilty when you say bovine excrement.
 
After reading @Veridican articles i was drawn to this passage...

2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

As for judgement we are required to in the Words of Christ... Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. The writings of your cult prove who and what you and your follow followers are and are about.
Nice to have a platforum to expose the putridness of your teaching.
 
I'm sorry...after reading the Articles of Faith, you came to the conclusion that Veridicans are "lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God"? Are you serious?
Veridicans have been accused of a lot of things--lovers of pleasure is not one of them.

You know what's funny, is that you don't even know what Paul is talking about--no one does. He constantly refers to a doctrine and a Gospel, but nowhere in his letters does he spell out exactly what that is. So, he tells you to avoid false doctrine, but you don't even know what his doctrine was. YOU KNOW WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOCTRINE IS. Oh, yes, you know that--that's what you follow, and THEY tell you what you are allowed to believe. But you don't know what Paul believed. So, throwing around Bible verses just makes you look like a fool.
 
I'm sorry...after reading the Articles of Faith, you came to the conclusion that Veridicans are "lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God"? Are you serious?
Veridicans have been accused of a lot of things--lovers of pleasure is not one of them.

You know what's funny, is that you don't even know what Paul is talking about--no one does. He constantly refers to a doctrine and a Gospel, but nowhere in his letters does he spell out exactly what that is. So, he tells you to avoid false doctrine, but you don't even know what his doctrine was. YOU KNOW WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOCTRINE IS. Oh, yes, you know that--that's what you follow, and THEY tell you what you are allowed to believe. But you don't know what Paul believed. So, throwing around Bible verses just makes you look like a fool.
You are welcome to believe whatever you choose . If quoting Scripture makes you say i am a fool Thank you !

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
 
Definition
Veridicanism is a neologism that derives from the word “veridical.”
Veridical, in the case of this word, means true. The suffix -an is combined with veridical to denote a follower of that which is true (Veridican), and -ism is a suffix attached that denotes a doctrine. Thus, according to practicing Veridicans, Veridicanism means The doctrine of those who follow that which is true.
History
Veridicanism is the name of a Christian religion founded by Edward Jerome Gordon in Riverside, California in 1993. It began as the Veridical Christian Society, a protestant non-denominational sect with only a few members, but over the next twenty years evolved into its current form. Veridicanism is the theological philosophy of a group of believers known as Veridicans and they belong to the online Church of the Veridican which started in January of 2013.
Although Veridicans maintain they are Christians, the ideology of Veridicanism is widely dismissed by many other Christians as heretical.
Articles of Faith
Below are the stated Articles of Faith for those belonging to the Veridican religion.
Preface
We live our lives in preparation for the eternal life hereafter. In aid of that we hold the following articles of faith to be true:
God
God is the fundamental monistic consciousness, creator of the universe in all its dimensions, father of souls, the definition of Life, author of truth, existence for its own sake.
Christ
The basic purpose of all human beings is to transform our spirit into Christ. Christ is God conscious of Himself from within His creation.
Jesus Christ
We assert that Jesus Christ was a physical man living on earth who was the first among us to transform into Christ. Thus his life and teachings are the instructions we follow for our transformation.
Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, God on Earth. He lived during the time of the Ancient Roman Empire, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He died, but he rose to life again three days later and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Glory of God. He will return to earth one day to judge the living and the dead.
Salvation
Salvation is the transformation from our inborn human spirit into the spirit of Christ. It is accomplished when we put our faith in the concept of Christ, realize our imperfection as human beings, and honestly desire that transformation.
Baptism
We define baptism as transformation through death and rebirth. We all have a baptism to undergo in that our human spirit must die and be reborn as Christ.
Communion
We believe that during the ceremony of eating bread and drinking wine that our faith transforms the bread into the actual body of Christ and the wine into Christ’s actual blood, and when we consume it, we transform into it. We hold this ritual on each solstice of every year, either alone or in community.
Bible
We interpret the true life and teachings of Jesus Christ from the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. All other religious books and writings are available for our edification, but the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ is the final authoritative text in all matters of our faith.
We hold that it is inerrant in purpose in that it will not fail to transform and grow the human spirit into Christ if read and understood.
Commandments
We have only two moral commandments: That we should love God with all our heart, all our mind, all our soul, and all our strength. And that we should love our neighbor by doing unto them what we would have done unto us.
Sin
We define sin as any action or thought that impedes our spiritual transformation into Christ. Anything that moves us toward becoming Christ is good; anything that slows that or reverses it is evil.
The Church
We hold that the Church is the community of minds where Christ is present. Thus we define it as the body of believers united in the solitary purpose of transforming into Christ. For Jesus Christ said, “Where two are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them.”
Satan
We believe in a spiritual entity that exists to draw human beings away from any development into Christ. We hold that Satan is a creation of God intended to purify the elect and to prune those from the Church who are not truly committed to it by faith. Anyone not in a league with Christ necessarily remains in a league with Satan.
Heaven
We hold that if a human dies while transforming into Christ, they continue that transformation in paradise. Paradise is an alternate plane where individual souls have a much greater control over their environment than what they have in the physical plane. Heaven is not the end, of the transformation, but only a stop along the way to a complete union with God.
Hell
We believe hell is a place of spiritual agony where souls are kept for the pleasure of God. We believe anyone not transforming into Christ at the time of death will go to hell.
Evangelism
We believe it is our duty to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ to whomever will listen in hopes the seed of the Word of God will grow within them and the transformation into Christ will commence. We evangelize because we love our fellow human being, even as God loves us all, therefore we evangelize with fervor, commitment, and by any means necessary.
Eschatology
We believe there are two meanings inherent in the “Second Coming.”
1. We believe Christ returns whenever a human being is transformed into Christ through faith in Christ.
2. We wait for the return of our teacher, Jesus Christ, who said he would come again to judge the world. This we believe occurs just before the end of the physical world.
Mission
Veridicans exists to spread the good news of Jesus Christ to the world and reveal the great potential of humankind expressed through the fullness of Christ. To this end, we endeavor by the power of God to be a light within the world, and from that power, to follow our template who is the firstborn among us—Jesus Christ. The fruition of our work is a great awakening within the human soul, empowering it to overthrow the kingdom of Satan and usher in the kingdom of God ruled eternally by those unified in Christ. We hold this to be the will of our Heavenly Father and the legacy of Glory owed to our posterity. Therefore, with perseverance we continue this struggle through the power of faith, the boldness of truth, our commitment to Christ, and the indomitable favor of the Lord our God.
Differences from mainstream Christianity
Veridicans deny the Holy Bible as the current word of God and follow instead The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ, a synthesis of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas authored by Edward Gordon in 2005 and published in 2012.
Veridicans believe the human spirit is transformed into Christ through faith, communion, and the study of scripture.
Veridicans believe that God is a monistic fundamental consciousness and as such is not separate from his creation, but rather is his creation. Mainstream Christians often view this as a form of pantheism, but Veridicans disagree claiming that in pantheism, the universe is God, but in monistic consciousness all that exists is of the substance of God. In this respect they are loosely aligned with the philosophy of Barouche Spinoza, in his work, Ethics.
Veridicans believe that Christ is actually God, but is God conscious of himself, or self-aware, within his own creation. Therefore, Veridicans believe that when a human being is transformed into Christ, they simply become aware of being God from a perspective within the creation as opposed to outside the creation looking in. However, it is understood that while the process of transformation begins on earth during their physical life, much of this progression into Christ occurs after death when their soul enters a lucid spiritual plane they believe Jesus referred to as “paradise.”
Recent Developments
Veridicans come together in an online forum owned by Gordon, entitled, “The Veridican.” Membership is free, however, there is a subscription required for added member benefits and to be nominated for leadership roles.
Veridicans are considered by some to be fundamentalist in the sense that they adhere strongly to the teachings found in The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ, but they are liberal in many areas. Veridicans have no stated opinion on homosexuality, abortion, capital punishment, or drug use. They do not endorse any political party, and they have no stated prejudices related to race, religion, or sex.
Their strongest fundamental trait is probably best observed in their vehement resistance toward atheism. According to Edward Gordon:
“We hate atheism because we love the human being who is tormented by atheism. We are committed to fighting the atheistic influence in society, and see it as a detriment to the psychological functioning of human beings, to society as a whole, and to future generations influenced by it.”
Indeed, most of the efforts of Veridicans today are directed at challenging atheistic beliefs through online discussions, debate, and through sermons offered on a weekly basis through the Church of the Veridican.

Above is your truth, your truth does not line up with Scripture .. Hell is your free will choice. The is only Salvation in the Cross Of Christ.
 
For the record, that's an old list of Articles someone posted on Wikibin. I've tried to give them an updated version, but I can't get in touch with anyone there. For the most part they are true to our beliefs however we are firmly against abortion. Also, we don't bother fighting with atheists any longer. In these end times, there's no point in it. The key points, however, are still accurate, especially in regard to salvation, the nature of God, Christ and Jesus Christ, and the purpose of mankind. If you want the official list, visit the website for the Veridican Church. Veridican Articles of Faith (veridicans.org)
 
For the record, that's an old list of Articles someone posted on Wikibin. I've tried to give them an updated version, but I can't get in touch with anyone there. For the most part they are true to our beliefs however we are firmly against abortion. Also, we don't bother fighting with atheists any longer. In these end times, there's no point in it. The key points, however, are still accurate, especially in regard to salvation, the nature of God, Christ and Jesus Christ, and the purpose of mankind. If you want the official list, visit the website for the Veridican Church. Veridican Articles of Faith (veridicans.org)
lol
 
all that has been and will be revealed is in the bible. Looking for more "truths" is pointless and futile. Actually, the truth (the truth what mankind and his purpose actually is, the true Jesus, the true God) can be found in the bible, you dont need to look very far to find it.
 
all that has been and will be revealed is in the bible. Looking for more "truths" is pointless and futile. Actually, the truth (the truth what mankind and his purpose actually is, the true Jesus, the true God) can be found in the bible, you dont need to look very far to find it.
You do realize advice like that is useless. I mean, of course it's all in the Bible, or in the case of my religion, the Gospels. But how we interpret those scriptures is what all the different religions are about.
 
How dare you judge me? Who are you to tell me I'm lying about Christ. And what gives you the right to say "we all refer to..." How do you know the mind of every person in this forum? It seems to me that for you, Christianity is just a weapon to use against other people. You're a Church bully. I've been dealing with your spirit my whole life it seems. And by the way, just as a side note here, if you think it's wrong to swear, you're just as guilty when you say bovine excrement.
Its my job, I stop wolves before they get in the corral when ever I can .

My qualifications are located in a part of Scripture you dont recognize, I wont tell you where but if you look up EVERY use of antichrist in a real Bible you'll find it.
 
Its my job, I stop wolves before they get in the corral when ever I can .

My qualifications are located in a part of Scripture you dont recognize, I wont tell you where but if you look up EVERY use of antichrist in a real Bible you'll find it.

You know..."Hitch"... it's not your job. You're not stopping wolves, you're just preventing the truth because you like to bully people. This is just a means for you to do that. And, I'm sorry, are you saying you're the Antichrist? Seriously? Somehow, I have a feeling you don't mean that.

As for "the parts of the scriptures I don't recognize" that's just a lie. We canonize the Gospels; the rest of the books are like the Apocrypha to us. They can be very useful for historical background and context, and for wisdom. I mean, Paul is a religious genius. But Paul's not Jesus Christ and I follow only Jesus Christ. That's the nature of our cult, if you must call it a cult: Our thing is that we follow only Jesus Christ. It's not complicated. In fact, when you think about it, it's prima facie the true religion. I mean, the whole reason we're in this thing called faith or religion is to follow Jesus Christ, am I right or wrong about that?
 
You do realize advice like that is useless. I mean, of course it's all in the Bible, or in the case of my religion, the Gospels. But how we interpret those scriptures is what all the different religions are about.
Interpret how you wish, all interpretations fall short of Jesus is my Savior and Lord!!
 
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