Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Revelation Speculation

For instance, I am usually told that one cannot find the Way and the Truth of his life from Jesus sayings only.

So what could I do? The revelations, that Jesus did in person only, happen to be more than enough for me to help me answer, logically and practically, all the important questions that I was looking for about my existence (now and after life). So I am sorry if I look rather weird in this respect.

You are right. Jesus is the foundation upon which we build everything else. Without Him none of the other stuff matters.
I've been here on TalkJesus for about 9 years now. I have written literally hundreds of threads about the teachings of Jesus.
I'm sure I'll get more involved in those again when the time comes. But we are given the "whole" Bible for a reason. You could say the entire book
of Revelation is really about Jesus. In fact, in the section about the seven churches which I just finished.. Jesus is the only person speaking.

We could look at just the gospels.. ( Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ) and the teachings of Jesus, and that is enough for some people. There is
certainly enough information there for people to get saved. But God gave us a lot more teachings as well from the apostles. As far as I'm concerned,
none of these teachings conflict with anything Jesus said.

We could look at it this way... Jesus didn't write a single book in the Bible. But on the other hand, He wrote the entire Bible.

2 Tim 3:16; All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

It is correct to say Jesus Himself is the word.

John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Rev 19:13; He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

So by knowing the "Word" (Bible) you get to know Jesus.
 
But we are given the "whole" Bible for a reason. You could say the entire book
of Revelation is really about Jesus. In fact, in the section about the seven churches which I just finished.. Jesus is the only person speaking.

You are right, the whole Bible is given for a 'reason' though we likely differ, as we will see, in how you and I see this reason ;)

But first and since I didn't read the book of Revelation, would you please tell me to whom Jesus was addressing on this book?
On the Gospel, Jesus is addressing 'in person' the multitudes and/or the Apostles in different places and at different times. Thank you.

Kerim
 
Back in the section about the bowl judgments, the sixth bowl was mentioned.

Rev 16:12; The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.
Rev 16:13; And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
Rev 16:14; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Rev 16:15; ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
Rev 16:16; And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

The Euphrates river is dried up so that the "kings from the east" can cross the river. (Apparently they are headed west).
The beast has three frog demons that go performing signs and miracles (it is often said this will be like counterfeit apostles). Why are these kings gathering together?
Where are they gathering? Verse 14 says they are gathering together "for the war of the great day of God".
Verse 16 says they are gathering together at Har-Magedon. (NASB)

Other Bible versions say "Armageddon"

(NLT) And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon.
(NIV) Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
(KJV) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
(ASV) And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-Magedon.

In Revelation 14 we see and angel with "a sharp sickle". A large blade used for cutting down wheat. I have actually used one of these once to cut grass.
Sometimes we see "death" depicted as the grim-reaper wearing a black robe and holding a sickle. I suspect this likely comes from this passage in the Bible.

Rev 14:17; And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18; Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe."
Rev 14:19; So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20; And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

But the angel doesn't actually kill people with his sickle. He simply uses it to "gather the clusters" from the earth when they are ripe.
The clusters are thrown into "the great wine press of the wrath of God". If this is the great war "of the day of God", notice it says here... the blood will come out
(from the wine press) up to the horses bridle for a distance of two hundred miles. Wow!! That is a lot of blood.

I can't help but think of the flooding in Houston Texas from hurricane Harvey right now. Not because I think this is the great war or the wine press of God.
But because the water is eight, nine, ten feet deep in some places even deeper. The flood is larger than the entire state of Rhode Island. (Rhode Island is
roughly 30 miles wide and 40 miles high, or about 1200 square miles). But this will be nothing compared to the blood that flows to a distance of 200 miles.

We often hear "God is love" ( 1 Jn 4:8; ) and so He is... but the Bible also says...

Psa 7:11; God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day.
Psa 7:12; If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword; He has bent His bow and made it ready.

Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

Luke 21:20; "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
Luke 21:21; "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
Luke 21:22; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23; "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
Luke 21:24; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This is usually taken as a "parallel prophecy". Parallel prophecies in the Bible are things that have already happened, but will happen again.
In this case Jerusalem was destroyed in about 587 BC, and then again in 70 AD. The entire book of Nehemiah is about the Jews rebuilding the wall
around the city that was destroyed. But neither of those events will be on the scale of Armageddon. Verse 22 above says "these are the days of vengeance".
Make no mistake... God's vengeance is coming upon the earth.

In Matthew 24, the the well known passage abut the end-times. It speaks of the abomination of desolation (more about that later).
It also speaks of four beasts. Because of this Daniel 11 and 12 are usually included in eschatology (the study of end-times).
But we saw in Rev 16 above that the beast (actually his demon frog spirits) will gather the armies of the earth together.

Dan 11:20; "Then in his place one will arise who will send an oppressor through the Jewel of his kingdom; yet within a few days he will be shattered, though not in anger nor in battle.
Dan 11:21; "In his place a despicable person will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue.
Dan 11:22; "The overflowing forces will be flooded away before him and shattered, and also the prince of the covenant.
Dan 11:23; "After an alliance is made with him he will practice deception, and he will go up and gain power with a small force of people.
Dan 11:24; "In a time of tranquility he will enter the richest parts of the realm, and he will accomplish what his fathers never did, nor his ancestors; he will distribute plunder, booty and possessions among them, and he will devise his schemes against strongholds, but only for a time.
Dan 11:25; "He will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South with a large army; so the king of the South will mobilize an extremely large and mighty army for war; but he will not stand, for schemes will be devised against him.

This "despicable person" (the beast) will practice deception and he will "gain power" with a small force of people. This is similar to Revelation 17.

Rev 17:12; "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
Rev 17:13; "These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
Rev 17:14; "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

It seems that 10 kings will be given kingdoms for a short period of time. But they really only have one purpose, to give their kingdoms to the beast.
Perhaps this is how "the despicable person" will gain power from a small force of people. (probably through deception). Daniel 11:21; says he seize the kingdom
by intrigue.

I was asked "why do you think Luke 12 and Matthew 24 are parallel prophecies?"

Because all of the events they mention haven't happened yet.
Immediately after the passage about Jerusalem being destroyed, it says...

Luke 21:25; "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
Luke 21:26; men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luke 21:27; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28; "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Obviously Jesus hasn't returned in a cloud with power and great glory yet.
Matthew says the same thing.

Matt 24:27; "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:28; "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

When Jesus returns, the whole world will change as we will see.

Next: the millennial reign
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Please forgive me for the interruption to talk about the reason for which we have the 'whole' Bible now.

Along history, God addressed humans (humanity) much like loving parents do in order to teach and prepare their beloved little children.

When I was a kid, many truths and the answers of my first questions, scientific or spiritual, were presented to me in rather easy simple ways. In other words, I had to be taught incomplete, if not wrong when necessary, ideas in order to prepare my fresh mind for the final updated versions of these ideas when I will be mature.

I hope the following simple scientific example can clarify, to a good extent, this universal important fact, because God addressed humans in the past following the same procedure:

When I was a kid student, our teachers told us:
[1] Two straights are said parallel if they don't intersect.

Later, when I became a teenager, it was time for the students and I to study 'space geometry' in which the previous definition is no more valid unless we add to it:
[2] ... and they are on the same plane.

But during my high studies at the university, the perspective geometry was also introduced in which the previous updated definition wasn't good enough, speaking practically. The complete updated definition was finally given as:
[3] Two straights are said parallel if they intersect at infinity.

All three definitions above belong indeed to the 'word of science' and, despite of their differences, each of them is very important at a certain age.

For about 40 years, I gain my daily bread as a designer of electronic controllers. Meanwhile, my various school books became souvenirs since I didn't need them anymore in my work. But I also cannot deny that without them I couldn't be the professional I am now.

In brief, I see God's school books in the Old Testament and in all parts of the New Testament in which Jesus, in person, is not present. To me in the least, Jesus came (as a human) to give me the final updated version of God's Word (hence, the truth of my existence I am looking for), because no man can do it, anytime in history (including now)..

Naturally, those who couldn't see in Jesus the Divine Perfect Teacher, speaking practically, have no choice but to keep looking for their complete truth via any other sources that suit better the nature of which they are created.

Kerim
 
B-A-C
I know you all moved on from the 7 Churches to another topic. Since I am new, I wanted to share my thoughts. I wrote a Commentary on the Book of Revelation about 3 years ago. This is an excerpt from the commentary on the 7 churches.
Trinity


The Seven Churches

Revelation 2 and 3


When Jesus spoke to John, He wanted to point out what the seven Churches were doing well and also where they had lost sound footing. I have summed up the condition of each Church and placed a descriptor with each one.


1. Ephesus the Loveless Church had continued to do the work of the ministry; they were patient and endured hardships. They strictly adhered to the removal of false teachers and apostles. The church was not growing weary or wanting to give up. Yet, Jesus had an issue with them. He stated that Ephesus had “abandoned the love they had at first”. There was an emotional component, a passion that had overtaken them in their service for Christ, which was now gone. In essence, they had fallen “out of love” with Him. Their work was one of duty not love.


Jesus acknowledges that Ephesus hates the works of the Nicolaitans as does He. The Nicolaitans taught that Christians were free to eat food offered to idols and to practice immorality in the name of religion. Jesus hated both of these practices and saw them as sin. He tells Ephesus that they must remember their love for Him, for this lifelong mission they have entered in to. If they do not, He will remove them, their church from its position with Him. Jesus tells them they must repent of having a cold heart.


2. Smyrna the Impoverished Church is in another place altogether. They are suffering affliction and poverty of unimaginable proportions, however; they are spiritually very rich. Smyrna is being slandered by people who state they are Jews but are not. They are not true Jews, the chosen of God because they do not bear the fruit in their daily lives that would witness that fact. Here we see Jesus say instead, those people are a synagogue of Satan.


Jesus further tells them not to fear what they are about to suffer, some will be thrown into jail and be afflicted, some tortured for up to 10 days. He tells them to be faithful unto death and He will give them the Crown of Life. This church has met with the approval of Jesus. The Crown of Life is for those who remain faithful even under persecution, even death.


3. Pergamum the Deceived Church is placed directly in the line of fire. Jesus tells them He knows that they are living where Satan’s throne is. (Modern day Turkey, the city of Aeolis). He tells them that He knows they have not denied His name or their faith in Him.


However there are problems, a very similar problem that Ephesus had, there were people who were holding onto the teachings of Balaam regarding eating foods sacrificed to idols and practicing fornication and some holding to the teachings of the Nicolaitans of practicing immorality in the name of religion. It appears that spiritual warfare was intense here; a battle for truth to prevail.


Jesus tells them they must repent; if they do not, He himself will come and make war against those who are practicing these things. There are many who acknowledge Jesus yet are deceived into believing and doing things that He does not find acceptable. There is no allowance for being deceived.





4. Thyatira the Tolerance Church is a church that seemed to have a perfect blend of service and love. Their works, love, faith, service and patient endurance were all impeccable. Yet again we see a problem. The church tolerated a false prophet in the congregation, a woman named Jezebel. Jezebel was giving advice to the congregation, but it wasn’t godly advice at all. She was teaching that fornication was okay and actually encouraging it. She encouraged the people to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols. Jesus said He gave her time to repent but she refused to do so. Because the church did not confront Jezebel with her sin, Jesus says that He will.


He states He will place her in great distress and all those who are following her advice. Jesus notes that He will strike her children dead and all will know He is the one who searches the intent of minds and hearts and everyone will be given according to what they deserve. By tolerating a Jezebel spirit a church becomes one of her children, whom will be stricken dead.


5. Sardis the Illusion Church is a church that for appearances sake appears to be alive for Christ, but upon a deeper inspection is found to be a dead church. Jesus says there are a few but not many here who have not soiled themselves and will walk with Him dressed in white. He states that this church must wake up and strengthen itself. Jesus announces that He has not found their service acceptable to the standards of God. He tells them to remember what they learned and obey, that they must repent. If they do not “wake up” and get back on track, Jesus says He will come like a thief and remove their names from the Book of Life.


6. Philadelphia the Insignificant Church is a small group, they have little power or influence yet they have not denied Christ. They have kept His word and patiently endured. Jesus says He will open a door that no one can close on them. He states that He will protect them from the hour of suffering that is coming on the whole world and to hold fast to what they have. Jesus further tells this church that He will make those in the synagogue of Satan come and bow down at their feet and they will see that Jesus truly loved these servants of God and that they have not been abandoned by Him. They are the second church that has met with complete approval from Jesus.


7. Laodicea the Influential Church is a very large wealthy church in the material sense, they think that since they have prospered and are rich that they have no spiritual problems; that God is satisfied with them and they do not need to improve or need to make any changes. Jesus says they are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked and poverty stricken spiritually; neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm in regard to Him. He states they must be earnest and repent of this, that it is not too late. However, if they do not repent He will spit them out of His mouth. They will not be counted in the Household of God. The issue here is not the physical size of the church, but rather the attitude of the congregation and leadership.


Each of these seven types of Church exists today.



Copyright@ 1/2013 by Kasey J. Burt

Taken from “Revelation and Matthew 24 A Commentary” The Judgments and Blessings of God. Author: Kasey J. Burt
 
As anyone who has been on TJ for very long knows, there have been numerous debates about the rapture, if, when, who , etc...
But for the purpose of this discussion none of that matters right now. I want to focus on the second coming Jesus.
The is viewed a number of different ways.

For example, some think this has already happened in a strictly spiritual sense. Most Christians think it will happen in a material physical sense.
Some believe it has "partially" happened, but not fully. In any case, let us see what we can discover here.

Most of what we know about the millennial reign comes from Revelation 20.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Verse 4 may be the most controversial verse in this entire series. But it narrows down who will reign with Jesus for the 1,000 year millennial reign.
If there is no rapture previous to this time, then "ONLY" those who have been beheaded because of their faith and testimony, and those "who had not worshiped
the beast or his image" .. and also had never received his mark will come to life and reign with Jesus. This means all other Christians since the beginning
will not reign with Jesus at this time. However if there is a rapture before this time, I would assume those people would reign with Jesus also.
It says in verse 5... "the rest of the dead" .. do not come back to life until the thousand year reign has ended. "This" is the first resurrection.
apparently there will be a second resurrection for everyone else.

It's interesting to me, that these people will also be "priests of God and Christ". The purpose of priests in the old testament was to do sacrifices and
confession. Will this still be necessary at this time? It seems there will be priests.

Before the thousand year reign, Satan is thrown into "prison" or a great pit if you will.

Rev 20:1; Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

After the thousand years reign Satan is released again for a while. It may be a great coincidence, but... it was a serpent that deceived Eve in the garden,
was that serpent Satan? It says here that Satan is the serpent of old". Could it be... ?

Some believe that Ezekiel 28 is reference to Satan.. "the king of Tyre". If so, he is thrown into the pit.

Ezek 28:8; 'They will bring you down to the pit, And you will die the death of those who are slain In the heart of the seas.

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

It seems some Christians believe the war between Jesus and Satan will be over for good before the millennial reign.. but no we see that Satan is released
again after his time in the pit. He gathers up a great army. In fact the number of this army "is like the sand of the seashore".
You would think that after a thousand years of peace, especially with Jesus being right here on the earth, that people would never go back to following
Satan.. but it says they will be numbered like the sands of the seashore. Have to ever tried to count the grains of sand in a one gallon bucket?

Of course fire will come down from heaven and wipe out Satan and his army once and for all at this time.

In fact it isn't until all of this happens that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, and there is a new heaven and a new earth.

so... how will Jesus reign during this time? Who will He reign over? Especially if some of us are reigning with Him. Who will we be reigning over?

It seems this time won't be quite so "lovey", "gentle" and "free" for those who are being reigned over on the earth.

Psa 2:9; 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"
Rev 2:27; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
Rev 12:5; And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

There are several scriptures that says Jesus (and those who He gives authority to) will reign "with a rod of iron". There will be no rebellion or uprisings
during this time.

Some Christians will reign with Jesus during this time. (perhaps all, depending on your view of the rapture)

1 Cor 4:8; You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.
2 Tim 2:12; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 2:26; 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

So for those who think this has already happened? Or is happening right now... why is Satan still running around deceiving people?
Why are people still rebelling and denying God? Why isn't Jesus and "his priests" reigning over them? If they are reigning over them, where is the
"rod of iron" to keep these people in line? Where is the fire from heaven that "devoured" these who joined Satan army? Is Jesus still King or Kings, or has He given it all
back to the Father already? If the thousand years is complete, why haven't "the rest of the dead" (or even those who have beheaded for that matter) come back to life yet?

If this is all there is, and life goes on as always.. and sin and rebellion continue, then the Bible and Jesus are liars. Why are there still other religions,
philosophies, selfishness, etc...

Rev 15:3; And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
Rev 15:4; "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

But even after the millennial reign, it isn't the end... yet.
.. to be continued ..

We're probably not ready for this yet, I think there should be study done on Mt Zion as a preface to this part of the study. But here we go...

The New Jerusalem.

The phrase "New Jerusalem" only appears in the Bible twice. Both times in revelation. ( Rev 3:12; and Rev 21:2; )
It is a highly disputed subject, everyone has an opinion. (including me) but hopefully we can separate fact and fiction here.

Lets start with the obvious stuff here.
This is basically the entire chapter of Revelation 21.

Rev 21:1; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

One of things often debated is "when" the new Jerusalem appears. But in the context here, it seems it appears about the same time or possibly slightly after
the "new" heaven and earth appear. Some say the new Jerusalem is already here (in a spiritual only sense) but if so. Then the new heaven and new earth are already here also.

Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
Rev 21:4; and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

All through the Bible, especially the new testament, we hear that God is seated on the throne.. "in heaven". Here is a sampling of some of those verses.

Matt 5:34; "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
Matt 23:22; "And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
Acts 7:49; 'HEAVEN IS MY THRONE, AND EARTH IS THE FOOTSTOOL OF MY FEET; WHAT KIND OF HOUSE WILL YOU BUILD FOR ME?' says the Lord, 'OR WHAT PLACE IS THERE FOR MY REPOSE?
Rev 4:2; Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.
Rev 5:13; And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

But now God is leaving heaven for the new Jerusalem it seems.

Rev 21:5; And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
Rev 21:6; Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

The Alpha and Omega. It is God the Father speaking here, but the same language is used by Jesus earlier in Revelation.

Rev 1:8; "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
If there weren't red letters in this verse, how would I know this is Jesus? Simply, the previous verse says...
Rev 1:7; BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Jesus is also speaking in ...

Rev 22:13; "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Rev 21:7; "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Another warning that certain types of people won't make it to new Jerusalem, but will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Rev 21:9; Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

This is another debated verse. Is "the bride" the city.. (the building itself) .. or.. is the bride... the church? The people in the building. Jesus calls Himself the "bridegroom"
at least 8 or 9 times in the New testament, not to mention a couple of parables about the bridegroom. ( Matt 9:15; Matt 25:1; Matt 25:5-6; Matt 25:10; Mark 2:19-20;
Luke 5:34-35; John 3:29; Rev 18:23; ) Eph 5:23; is also an often quoted verse pertaining to this.

Rev 21:10; And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

Another debated point is... "is the new jerusalem heaven?". Well technically it comes down out of heaven. Heaven must be a very large place :)

Rev 21:11; having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
Rev 21:12; It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
Rev 21:13; There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
Rev 21:14; And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15; The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
Rev 21:16; The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
Rev 21:17; And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
Rev 21:18; The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
Rev 21:19; The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
Rev 21:20; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
Rev 21:21; And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

Here we have the physical dimensions of the city. I know of no place in the Bible where it gives physical dimensions for "spiritual" things. So if the new Jerusalem is
only a spiritual place, this would be the only place in the Bible that breaks that rule. Perhaps the most amazing thing about this city is it's size. 1500 miles cubed!!
1500 miles long, 1500 miles wide, and 1500 miles high. For you people not in the US, that amounts to roughly 2400 kilometers!! This is almost half the continental US.
or almost the continent of Australia. ...except imagine Australia 1500 miles high!! The highest object on the earth currently is Mt. Everest, about 5.5 miles or 8.8 kilometers.
Verse 14 mentions the 12 apostles, but the Bible mentions 15. So which 12? Most assume it's the 12 minus Judas, plus Paul. Barnabas and Matthias are also called apostles.
There is a wall, measured at 72 yards. Does this mean 216 feet high? Or does it means the walls are 216 feet thick?

Rev 21:22; I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23; And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24; The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
Rev 21:25; In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
Rev 21:26; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

I'm not sure I can really add anything here, those verses are pretty self explanatory to me.

Rev 21:27; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This last verse pretty much limits who will be allowed into the city.

... to be continued... (we aren't even close to be being done with the New Jerusalem yet).

The Holy City.... new vs old Jerusalem.

Neh 11:1; Now the leaders of the people lived in Jerusalem, but the rest of the people cast lots to bring one out of ten to live in Jerusalem, the holy city, while nine-tenths remained in the other cities.
Neh 11:18; All the Levites in the holy city were 284.
Isa 48:2; "For they call themselves after the holy city And lean on the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is His name.
Isa 52:1; Awake, awake, Clothe yourself in your strength, O Zion; Clothe yourself in your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; For the uncircumcised and the unclean Will no longer come into you.
Dan 9:24; "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Several times in the old testament Nehemiah, Isaiah, and Daniel call Jerusalem "the holy city". Isaiah :21 is remarkably similar to Rev 21:8; and Rev 21:7;

Matt 4:5; Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple,
Matt 27:53; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
Rev 11:2; "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

I could find no place in the new Testament, (other than Revelation) that specifically says Jerusalem is the holy city, but it would seem from the context of
some of these verses that it is indeed Jerusalem. When Jesus was crucified and the dead came out of their tombs, what other city would this be?

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Two out of three verses here call the "new" Jerusalem the holy city. The last verse in chapter 22 doesn't specifically mention the new Jerusalem, but it does mention the holy city.
Verse 22 is a fair warning to people who add to the Bible. I think people under estimate that warning, or don't take it seriously. I have seen some pretty far-out posts here on TJ
over the last decade or so.

Rev 22:1; Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:2; in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3; There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev 22:4; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
Rev 22:5; And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Here we see a little more information about the new Jerusalem. A little of what it looks like inside. I also notice that Rev 21:25; and Rev 22:5; are very similar.

I won't copy the entire first 12 verses of Ezekiel 47, but many scholars believe the language in Ezekiel 47 is talking about the same river mentioned in Rev 22:1-2;

Ezek 47:1; Then he brought me back to the door of the house; and behold, water was flowing from under the threshold of the house toward the east, for the house faced east. And the water was flowing down from under, from the right side of the house, from south of the altar.
Ezek 47:2; He brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate by way of the gate that faces east. And behold, water was trickling from the south side. ( see Ezek 47:1-12; and Daniel 12:4-6; )

Some people miss the fact the people in the new Jerusalem will have the name of Jesus on their foreheads ( Rev 22:4; ) (also see Rev 14:1; )

...to be continued... the New Jerusalem vs Mt. Zion

The shape of the new Jerusalem is also an item of much speculation. Will it be a square cube? Or will it be pyramid shaped?

There is a small "mountain" in Jerusalem, about 2500 feet high (765 meters). Known as Mt. Zion. Why does this matter in a study about the new Jerusalem?
Because if the new Jerusalem is where God/Jesus will reign... then we need to take in account some verses about Mt. Zion. There is some disagreement over
exactly which hill was the original "Mt. Zion" of the old testament.

Psa 146:10; The LORD will reign forever, Your God, O Zion, to all generations. Praise the LORD!
Isa 24:23; Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.
Mic 4:7; "I will make the lame a remnant And the outcasts a strong nation, And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on and forever.

Psa 9:11; Sing praises to the LORD, who dwells in Zion; Declare among the peoples His deeds.
Psa 134:3; May the LORD bless you from Zion, He who made heaven and earth.
Psa 135:21; Blessed be the LORD from Zion, Who dwells in Jerusalem. Praise the LORD!
Isa 33:5; The LORD is exalted, for He dwells on high; He has filled Zion with justice and righteousness.
Jer 31:6; "For there will be a day when watchmen On the hills of Ephraim call out, 'Arise, and let us go up to Zion, To the LORD our God.'"
Joe 3:17; Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, And strangers will pass through it no more.
Mic 4:2; Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Zec 8:3; "Thus says the LORD, 'I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the LORD of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain.'
Psa 48:2 ; Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion in the far north, The city of the great King.
Isa 18:7; At that time a gift of homage will be brought to the LORD of hosts From a people tall and smooth, Even from a people feared far and wide, A powerful and oppressive nation, Whose land the rivers divide—To the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, even Mount Zion.
Isa 59:20; "A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.
Psa 2:6; "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
Isa 65:25; "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

The term "new Jerusalem" isn't in the old testament anywhere. .. or is it? It seems that all through the old testament, the Lord was going to return to Mt. Zion
and rule and reign from "His Holy mountain". For this reason, some think the new Jerusalem will be more "mountain" (pyramid) shaped, rather than cube shaped.
I do not know to be honest, but it makes for interesting conversation.

Another debate is "will the new Jerusalem float above the earth, or will it rest on the earth?"
Again, I don't know the answer, some have speculated it would be too heavy to rest on the surface of the earth... (but it's not too heavy too float above the earth??)

But if the Lord is going to reign forever in the new Jerusalem, and the Lord is going to reign forever from Mt. Zion is Jerusalem, it seems there must be some connection here.
( Micah 4:7; Rev 22:3-5; ) .. so which is it? Mt Zion or the new Jerusalem? Or are they somehow the same place?

There are some other similarities, such the river that flows from the throne,

Ezek 47:12; "By the river on its bank, on one side and on the other, will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither and their fruit will not fail. They will bear every month because their water flows from the sanctuary, and their fruit will be for food and their leaves for healing."

Rev 22:1; Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:2; in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

There comes an obvious question from the verses above, if the saints are ruling and reigning with jesus... who are they reigning over?
If our new bodies are no longer lame, sick, broken and aged.... what people (in the "nations") will need the leaves for healing?

Part of the answer may be in these verses.

Rev 22:14; Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

It seems there will still be unsaved people outside the gates of the new Jerusalem even after it comes down from heaven.

... more about that coming... to be continued ...

It is my personal conviction that God gives us all freedom of choice. This is easily proven every time we sin. God never makes us sin, God never wants us
to sin, but we do it anyway. He could keep us from doing it, but He lets us make our own choices. Ever since He told Adam and Eve not to eat of tree, ( Gen 2:17; )
mankind has been making choices. It wasn't that Adam and Eve didn't know what God wanted ( Gen 3:3; ) they just chose to do something else.

What does Genesis have to with Revelation?

Because I believe this freedom of choice will continue for a while. Even before Adam and Eve made a bad choice, Satan made a bad choice.
Even after the millennial reign, people will still be free to make "bad" choices. Some people will still want to follow Satan.

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

Apparently a "LOT" of people will still follow Satan at this point. The tribulation has been over for a thousand years already at this point. Jesus has been reigning over the
earth for a thousand years at this point. Satan was imprisoned for a thousand years with no power. ... and yet... after all of this, some people will follow him.

I believe Joshua and the prophets of the old testament had it right.

Josh 24:15; "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

So, OK the thousand years have passed at this point, and Satan (and his army) has been defeated once and for all.

Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It's interesting, that even those who believe that the events of Revelation have already happened, don't believe Satan is already defeated. (??)

So does that mean everyone is happy, holy, and in heaven (the new Jerusalem) ?? No, apparently it does not. As with Adam and Eve, and you and me. People will still
have to make a choice.

Rev 21:27; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:14; Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Who are these people outside the city? The dogs, sorcerers, immoral, murderers, idolaters, and liars? Where did they comes from? Satan has been thrown into the lake of fire at
this point. In fact the new Jerusalem doesn't even appear and come down out of heaven until Satan is defeated. The millennial reign isn't in the new Jerusalem, it's
on the earth. After the millennial reign, Jesus is in the new Jerusalem.

Rev 21:22; I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23; And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Rev 22:3; There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev 22:4; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
Rev 22:5; And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

As we have already mentioned a few times, Jesus and the saints will be ruling over "the nations". Who are the nations? Other Christians? If so, then who are the saints
ruling with Jesus? Also as mentioned previously, who are the people who the leaves of the tree of life for healing? Isn't everyone a Christian at this time?
I do not believe so. I believe every successive generation will have to make the same choice that Adam and Eve did, that you and I did.

If that is the case.. does it ever end? Is there ever a time when sin and death are completely eliminated? Yes, I believe at the end of this age, even death is done away with.

1 Cor 15:24; then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:25; For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1 Cor 15:26; The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1 Cor 15:27; For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1 Cor 15:28; When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

But all of that doesn't happen until Jesus makes everything right again and abolishes all of the enemies of God. Then He hands the keys of the kingdom over to the Father.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ephesus

Rev 2:1; "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:
Rev 2:2; 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
Rev 2:3; and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.
Rev 2:4; 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
Rev 2:6; 'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Rev 2:7; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

This is of course the same church that the book of Ephesians was written to. At the time the new testament was written Ephesus was in Ionia,
a part of Greece. This territory is now part of Turkey. Ephesus was near modern day Selcuk in Turkey.

I personally feel that to understand the church of Ephesus, you would do well to read Ephesians. For the most part Paul doesn't have bad things
to say about the church in Ephesians. This book is known for instructions on how husbands and wives should live together, ( Eph 5:22-33; )
but also the passage about putting on the armor of God. ( Eph 6:10-20; ). Many scholars believe there was about 20 years between the writing
of Ephesians and the writing of Revelation. So what happened to Ephesus?

We already found out what the seven stars and seven golden lampstands were back in Rev 1:20; Jesus is talking to John here.

I know your deeds and your perseverance. He praises them that they do not tolerate evil men. So much for the "tolerance" doctrine that
some churches are preaching today. He says they test "those who call themselves apostles". This is often debated, were there more than
the 12 apostles? (13 if you count Judas). Barnabas is called an Apostle in Acts 14:14; Matthias was added to the eleven apostles in Acts 1:26;
So there were at least 15. Possibly more. But there were also some "false" apostles. I think there are still some of these false apostles in the world today.
The church was smart enough to test them back then. I wonder if some churches are smart enough to do that today?

You have persevered... and have endured... and have not grown weary. There are several other verses in the new testament about those who "overcome"
and do not grow weary, and those who "stand firm" and do not lose hope. A whole sermon could be written about this. But these are things we
have do individually as believers as well as corporately as a church body.

.. to be continued ...
Hello @B-A-C,

The visions which were given to John to record, were prophetic of the events which will take place in, 'The Lord's Day', or, 'The Day of the Lord' (Rev.1:10), and the churches addressed will be present in that day. (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, - these are all in Asia)

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
BAC I just say you might be a bit confused on one point that yes Jesus did defeat Satan at the cross, I mean we christians DO believe that as we aren't under satan's power anymore, if you apply the blood then you can be free.

Unless you actually don't believe that and are still in bondage. This is not to say satan isn't working in unbelievers, but he shouldn't be hassling believers.
 
BAC I just say you might be a bit confused on one point that yes Jesus did defeat Satan at the cross, I mean we christians DO believe that as we aren't under satan's power anymore, if you apply the blood then you can be free.

Unless you actually don't believe that and are still in bondage. This is not to say satan isn't working in unbelievers, but he shouldn't be hassling believers.

You bring up a good point, I guess I should clarify here :)

Satan is defeated in the sense that he is not the ruler of this world anymore (he is still the prince of the air). Eph 2:2;
After Jesus was resurrected He said..
Matt 28:18; And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth

Up until this time Satan had the earth. When he tempted Jesus and offered Him the kingdoms of the earth, they were his to give.

Matt 4:8; Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
Matt 4:9; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."

I would disagree with you on one point, I think Satan harasses believers much more than unbelievers. He doesn't have to harass unbelievers
they already belong to him. Satan tested Jesus, Satan tested Job. Satan tested Peter. Satan loves to harass believers.
Only Christians are actually involved in spiritual warfare. Unbelievers don't even know there is war going on. Who is the warfare against?
Satan.

However what I meant by Satan being "defeated" in the previous context was... in the book of Revelation satan is imprisoned for 1,000 years.
With no power and no influence over people on the earth (until he is set free after the 1,000 years)
Satan still roams around seeking to devour people. ( 1 Pet 5:8; ) He hasn't been utterly destroyed and thrown into the lake of fire yet.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
Hmm ok but I would say since we know in revelation the victory has been won we can overcome. Therefore we can say to satan get lost.

Unbelievers are under satans power but they are in bondage. Only the name of Jesus can break those strongholds.

Revelation is a book that has a beginning and end and also an eternal timeframe of the 'hereafter'. I would rather proclaim victory in the spiritual then have this mindset that what is prophesied is only ever going to happen sometime in the future in this world. It leaves you in limbo if you always thinking well Jesus has to come back 'one day'. How about him dwelling in you NOW? Today...is the day of salvation!
 
It leaves you in limbo if you always thinking well Jesus has to come back 'one day'. How about him dwelling in you NOW? Today...is the day of salvation!

Jesus reigns in the hearts of those who accept Him and give their lives and hearts to Him.
However He doesn't reign over the entire earth yet. He is coming back to do that. He hasn't eliminated Satan yet, but He will do that also.

One day every knee will bow and tongue will confess... Php 2:10-11; but that day hasn't happened yet.
We can do it willingly now... or we can suffer the consequences of having to be forced to acknowledge it later.

John 14:2-3; .. says Jesus is preparing a place for "us" (you and me).
Some take this to me He is preparing a place for Him (or the Holy Spirit) to dwell within us.
But that is the opposite of what it says.... it says for "us" not for "Him".
 
The one day is the day you die.

You cannot predict the 'one day' . The day of atonement that Jesus warned about for the kingdom of Israel, has not that happened when Jerusalem was destroyed. And it was overrun and the temple destroyed just as Jesus said it was. No holy of holies there, no more sacrifices. The temple is now within us!

We are not hanging round Judea anymore!!! Just wondering what your take is, cos Ive heard some sects like christadelphians and sdas talk about weird things that they believe will happen, which is from a very skewed interpretation of the bible.

Jesus is talking about Heaven. He is bringing the kingdom, but he is harvesting souls from earth to be raised in heaven. Is this not so or are you saying something else.
 
Back
Top