(Refuting) The (Original Sin) Doctrine!!

[spiriteddove05]

Many people in churches today especially the cultic denominations like the catholic church and the watch tower group think that people are born sinners and not only that but even think they have a sinful nature that they can nether eradicate and that all they can do is just (strive) along and hope for the best and if they sin weather wilfully or unwilfully they can just ask God for forgiveness each time and it will be ok. This is wats been taught in most churches 2day people.


Catholics think that babies are born sinners!! Its why they sprinkle babies with water, if that’s the case den why does jesus say in matthew 18:3 you must become like a little child to enter into heaven, in other words babies are innocent.


How can a baby be a sinner? They barely have the capacity to even think let alone even move and yet their supposed have the understanding of wat sin is. Sin is not innate, its not done on impulse, sin is a choice acted out upon our free will which requires an understanding to begin with.


Sin is a premeditated thing which also has to be thought out, its deciding to or not 2 do something iver way the person doing it has an understanding of wat their doing. Yes we have inherited the carnal nature and incorruptible flesh from our ancestors but that’s not a licence. Sin is a choice, we can always choose to or not to regardless of our canal nature!!


Jesus said to the adulterer (Go and sin no more) john 8:5-11 was he commanding the impossible? Not according 2 deu 30:11 my commandments are not far from you. Not according 2 1 corith 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not (common to man). God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability.


Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Our obligations nether exceed our abilities if so then It would be unfair for God to command something that could nether be achieve.

 

[spiriteddove05]

Couple of verses from excuses city that people like to use substantiate why they cant stop sinning. Pslam 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. and Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.


First off dis is poetic literature. The word psalm means hymn or song and in many of the chapters ull see the word (salah) which means next verse of a hymn or next paragraph. Many of the poetic books like psalms, proverbs, ecclesiastes and sos!! Are full of pithy’s and imaginative text. meaning their not to be taken literally but as a general truth, or piece of wisdom.


Also jewish poems are different then say English poems. English poems are mainly about rhythm and rhyming. But jewish poems use wats called synthetic parallels which I can get into later.


Book of pslams was written by david at the most part at terrible times of his life. Like for instances this is the same person who got his best friend killed and then slept with his wife, was punished by God and had his child die. And his best friend and even his own son wanted to kill him. Pslam 51:5 was written at a time where david had done a lot of backsliding, this was a time of sorrows and he was crying out 2 God for forgiveness.



So I don’t think this is a book that you wanna use for moral instruction and to formulate a doctrine from as opposed to a lot of the books in the NT they are more literal based.

 

[Sue D.]

Take a look at Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Genesis 3: 1-7 most of that chapter is telling how sin entered this world. And why we do have a propensity For sin. From telling a little fib to being prideful or being a serial murderer or rapist or what ever is the 'worse' sin a person can imagine.

You're talking about the Psalms -- some wonderful passages -- 62: 1-3 and vs 6 and then 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nation, I will be exalted in the earth!" He Is and Will be.

 

[spiriteddove05]

Take a look at Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Genesis 3: 1-7 most of that chapter is telling how sin entered this world. And why we do have a propensity For sin. From telling a little fib to being prideful or being a serial murderer or rapist or what ever is the 'worse' sin a person can imagine.

You're talking about the Psalms -- some wonderful passages -- 62: 1-3 and vs 6 and then 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nation, I will be exalted in the earth!" He Is and Will be.

Hay!! heres a forum dat iv'e joined and im talking about this exact same thing if u wud like 2 join, christianityboard

 

[Sue D.]

I didn't think it was proper to advertise for another Forum on here.

Besides -- you're changing the subject. You were just down-playing the Psalms in their importance. And original sin.

 

[spiriteddove05]

ok if u wanna have a debate!!

Romans 3 hes addressing the jews!! gotta take it in context, he's telling dem what coz ur jews u think ur saved!! because of circumcism.

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both 'Jews and Greeks are under sin,

10 as it is written:
None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
T)'The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 3 is talking about people who have already strayed from the law, they wilfuly break Gods law. Not tho's who are born into a sinful world.

"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." is a connotation!! an image of our carnal nature!! the propensity to sin!! in this particular passage, what is sin? a transgression of the law right!! in order to sin you have to break Gods law, explain 2 me how a new born baby dat has just come into the world has done dat??

 

[Sue D.]

I was simply making a comment, And, no, I don't want to get into any debate.

To answer your question about baby's -- I've given birth to four babies. Watching a baby develop -- they have to be Taught to share their toys, playing nicely does Not come 'naturally'. 'we' inherit our tendency towards sin from our parents. Our original parents were Adam and Eve. The sin nature. As young as six months of age, a baby Can show 'temper'.

A couple we'd known Years ago had two sons. The one son -- all they had to do was give him a 'look' and he knew he was doing wrong and felt sorry. The 2nd son was just the opposite -- a 'look' was simply a 'look' -- didn't phase him. His personality Really needed loving Disciplining. They had to Constantly remind him who was boss.

 

[spiriteddove05]

I was simply making a comment, And, no, I don't want to get into any debate.

To answer your question about baby's -- I've given birth to four babies. Watching a baby develop -- they have to be Taught to share their toys, playing nicely does Not come 'naturally'. 'we' inherit our tendency towards sin from our parents. Our original parents were Adam and Eve. The sin nature. As young as six months of age, a baby Can show 'temper'.

A couple we'd known Years ago had two sons. The one son -- all they had to do was give him a 'look' and he knew he was doing wrong and felt sorry. The 2nd son was just the opposite -- a 'look' was simply a 'look' -- didn't phase him. His personality Really needed loving Disciplining. They had to Constantly remind him who was boss.

prove it, by scripture or facts I don't want ur own conjecture!!

 

[Sue D.]

Not sure what you want me to 'prove it'.

From you bio info -- you're 38 and from London. Wondering if you have children? Your response suggests you don't.

There is that passage that says to 'train up your child in the way that he should go..... Proverbs 22:6 and when he is an adult, he will not depart from it.

And Proverbs 23:13 -- Do not withhold correction from a child.... suggests that children / young child is needing correcting. They do tend to be sinning and need correcting.

The 'tone' of your post suggests you're not really open to conversation. Just a good 'debate' -- and I don't care to 'debate'. IF you're a parent -- mother -- then a parent to parent , Maybe.

 

[B-A-C]

One of the common verses that many people take to mean not "all" babies will go to heaven is...

1 Cor 7:14; For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

The thought is.. if at least one parent is saved... the children are "clean". But if neither parent is saved... then they are "unclean".
But even if this is true... it only works until the age of accountability, then you are responsible for your own salvation.

I know the phrase "original sin" is popular in RC churches, but I personally feel the "original" sin, happened before Eve ate the fruit.

Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

Isa 14:12; "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13; "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
Isa 14:14; 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

I believe this sin happened before Adam and Eve ever sinned.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- yes, there is the concept of 'covenant' children. And , yes, there Is the age of accountability. A person needs to be able to understand right from wrong that they , personally, have sinned / done something wrong And feel sorry for it.

Some children understand That at a very young age, other take longer. Most kids understand at a little later of age. Not something that can be 'forced'. And That would include adults who are mentally slow. It's believed that those who can't understand right from wrong are under God's grace. It's the responsibility of Christian parents to take time with their children from early on. Reading Bible stories to them. There are Children's Bibles -- I've never looked at any of them. there Are those who are very good at putting Bible on a child's level of understanding. And there are those who believe that reading from a regular Bible is fine. It's a matter of what's going to be read and understood. And, yes, the Holy Spirit does reach our hearts.

And sometimes a child / person will do something wrong / against the law and someone has to explain Why it's wrong. that's another subject area.

Meaning that the Real Original sin took place with Lucifer and his pride that 'took him down'. then again, he was part of the angelic realm. Not mankind. So - for Mankind / us/ it started with Adam and Eve.

Lucifer / satan has done everything in his power to thwart everything that God has planned. He tried to stop the birth of Jesus Christ. He's twisted marriage that God ordained as between one man and one woman. etc, etc.

As for original sin being popular in the RCC -- wouldn't know. People give the RCC credit for a Lot of things. And many things they Do hold to are not Biblical.

 

[spiriteddove05]

Not sure what you want me to 'prove it'.

From you bio info -- you're 38 and from London. Wondering if you have children? Your response suggests you don't.

There is that passage that says to 'train up your child in the way that he should go..... Proverbs 22:6 and when he is an adult, he will not depart from it.

And Proverbs 23:13 -- Do not withhold correction from a child.... suggests that children / young child is needing correcting. They do tend to be sinning and need correcting.

The 'tone' of your post suggests you're not really open to conversation. Just a good 'debate' -- and I don't care to 'debate'. IF you're a parent -- mother -- then a parent to parent , Maybe.

u do know that proverbs is poetic literature, its not 2 be taken literely even tho! I do agree wiv dat verse, its a general truth not an absolute truth!! the book I mean,


Many of the poetic books like psalms, proverbs, ecclesiastes and sos!! Are full of pithy’s and imaginative text. meaning their not to be taken literally but as a general truth, or piece of wisdom.

Also jewish poems are different then say English poems. English poems are mainly about rhythm and rhyming. But jewish poems use wats called synthetic parallels which I can get into later. Yes 'train up your child in the right way and he wont depart from it but that doesn't apply 2 all kids as all kids are different like example some kids have ADHT!! here Solomon is talking more about not departing from the law as opposed 2 actual behaviour.

just to cross ref: proverbs 6:20-22 david tells Solomon when hes a child, keep the law on ur heart and bind it in u so wen u go it shall keep u and so on.

 

[spiriteddove05]

One of the common verses that many people take to mean not "all" babies will go to heaven is...

1 Cor 7:14; For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

The thought is.. if at least one parent is saved... the children are "clean". But if neither parent is saved... then they are "unclean".
But even if this is true... it only works until the age of accountability, then you are responsible for your own salvation.

I know the phrase "original sin" is popular in RC churches, but I personally feel the "original" sin, happened before Eve ate the fruit.

Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

Isa 14:12; "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13; "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
Isa 14:14; 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

I believe this sin happened before Adam and Eve ever sinned.

yeah for sure!!, john 8:44 but i'm talking about man not angel!!

1 Cor 7:14 yeah their sanctified from who ever but not saved!! they have 2 repent 1st once they come 2 the knowledge, their unclean coz their not being sanctified!!

 

[Acts2:38]

Many people in churches today especially the cultic denominations like the catholic church and the watch tower group think that people are born sinners and not only that but even think they have a sinful nature that they can nether eradicate and that all they can do is just (strive) along and hope for the best and if they sin weather wilfully or unwilfully they can just ask God for forgiveness each time and it will be ok. This is wats been taught in most churches 2day people.


Catholics think that babies are born sinners!! Its why they sprinkle babies with water, if that’s the case den why does jesus say in matthew 18:3 you must become like a little child to enter into heaven, in other words babies are innocent.


How can a baby be a sinner? They barely have the capacity to even think let alone even move and yet their supposed have the understanding of wat sin is. Sin is not innate, its not done on impulse, sin is a choice acted out upon our free will which requires an understanding to begin with.


Sin is a premeditated thing which also has to be thought out, its deciding to or not 2 do something iver way the person doing it has an understanding of wat their doing. Yes we have inherited the carnal nature and incorruptible flesh from our ancestors but that’s not a licence. Sin is a choice, we can always choose to or not to regardless of our canal nature!!


Jesus said to the adulterer (Go and sin no more) john 8:5-11 was he commanding the impossible? Not according 2 deu 30:11 my commandments are not far from you. Not according 2 1 corith 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not (common to man). God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability.


Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Our obligations nether exceed our abilities if so then It would be unfair for God to command something that could nether be achieve.

One of the common verses that many people take to mean not "all" babies will go to heaven is...

1 Cor 7:14; For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

The thought is.. if at least one parent is saved... the children are "clean". But if neither parent is saved... then they are "unclean".
But even if this is true... it only works until the age of accountability, then you are responsible for your own salvation.

I know the phrase "original sin" is popular in RC churches, but I personally feel the "original" sin, happened before Eve ate the fruit.

Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

Isa 14:12; "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13; "But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
Isa 14:14; 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

I believe this sin happened before Adam and Eve ever sinned.

@B-A-C -- yes, there is the concept of 'covenant' children. And , yes, there Is the age of accountability. A person needs to be able to understand right from wrong that they , personally, have sinned / done something wrong And feel sorry for it.

Some children understand That at a very young age, other take longer. Most kids understand at a little later of age. Not something that can be 'forced'. And That would include adults who are mentally slow. It's believed that those who can't understand right from wrong are under God's grace. It's the responsibility of Christian parents to take time with their children from early on. Reading Bible stories to them. There are Children's Bibles -- I've never looked at any of them. there Are those who are very good at putting Bible on a child's level of understanding. And there are those who believe that reading from a regular Bible is fine. It's a matter of what's going to be read and understood. And, yes, the Holy Spirit does reach our hearts.

And sometimes a child / person will do something wrong / against the law and someone has to explain Why it's wrong. that's another subject area.

Meaning that the Real Original sin took place with Lucifer and his pride that 'took him down'. then again, he was part of the angelic realm. Not mankind. So - for Mankind / us/ it started with Adam and Eve.

Lucifer / satan has done everything in his power to thwart everything that God has planned. He tried to stop the birth of Jesus Christ. He's twisted marriage that God ordained as between one man and one woman. etc, etc.

As for original sin being popular in the RCC -- wouldn't know. People give the RCC credit for a Lot of things. And many things they Do hold to are not Biblical.

spiriteddove05 does have a lot of "out there doctrines" but this is one that, according to scripture, I must agree on.

Original sin doctrine is false. Utterly false. It is a concept devised by the twisting of certain verses and the lack of understanding context and the tossing out of other scriptures.

Since there are feelings of not wanting to "debate", I will just place information on the subject. Debating IS a good way to get scripture across when everyone can keep a level head. Even if your opponent will not relent, those who read it can decide for themselves by the information provided.

Are Children Born With Sin? - Apologetics Press

Have you ever seen the face of a newborn child, touched the soft skin of his rose-colored cheeks, and sensed his innocence when looking into his beautiful eyes? In stark contrast, Catholic teaching alleges that “small infants are sinful!” The Catechism of the Catholic Church declares: Born with...

www.apologeticspress.org

Does Psalm 58 Teach "Original Sin"?

A sincere reader believes that Psalm 58:3-6 teaches that infants are "born in sin." But this is a mistaken view of the figurative nature of the poetic language. Study this issue with us.

www.christiancourier.com

Original Sin and a Misapplied Passage

This essay addresses a verse commonly used in support of the false doctrine of original sin.

www.christiancourier.com

Original sin is a doctrine that the RCC devised really. And the reformation churches just ran with it. Since then, the infection of original sin has not gone away.

Hosea says - "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge...". The same can apply today.

None of you who support Original sin here on this thread have even brought any scripture to prove it. All the scripture I would post is found in these articles posted above. Instead of speculation and conjecture, we should be using scripture.

BTW, some are using family to inch their theories as "more valuable" and therefore more correct. I find that is flawed logic.

I am married and have 3 children myself. Four if you include the help I gave my sister for a while raising her child til she was able to get her life straight.

None of that matters though if people are not going to go by scripture.

 

[Sue D.]

@spiriteddove05 -- referring you back to your post #9 -- do you have children? I've shared that I have 4 -- in their 30's and 40's. How about you?

 

[Sue D.]

u do know that proverbs is poetic literature, its not 2 be taken literely even tho! I do agree wiv dat verse, its a general truth not an absolute truth!! the book I mean,


Many of the poetic books like psalms, proverbs, ecclesiastes and sos!! Are full of pithy’s and imaginative text. meaning their not to be taken literally but as a general truth, or piece of wisdom.

Also jewish poems are different then say English poems. English poems are mainly about rhythm and rhyming. But jewish poems use wats called synthetic parallels which I can get into later. Yes 'train up your child in the right way and he wont depart from it but that doesn't apply 2 all kids as all kids are different like example some kids have ADHT!! here Solomon is talking more about not departing from the law as opposed 2 actual behaviour.

just to cross ref: proverbs 6:20-22 david tells Solomon when hes a child, keep the law on ur heart and bind it in u so wen u go it shall keep u and so on.

Yes, I'm very aware of the Poetic books -- your keyboard language is interesting to read -- 'wiv dat' -- just an observation.

A great deal of Godly wisdom is found in those books. God inspired their authors to write them for a reason.

And, of course all kids are different. They grow into adults who are all different. You and I are different. We Do have the same Bible to read.

Parents are their children's first teachers -- What are we teaching them? A lot of daily living is how we live. Day by day. What are we teaching day by day?

We were given the Law in the Old Testament to show us that it's not possible to obey all of it all the time -- but it was given to guide us Until the promised Messiah would be born. When a person Does accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- the Holy Spirit puts it in our hearts. We have a desire to please God. Now -- God desire Relationship with us. We need to be willing to follow His guidance.

 

[spiriteddove05]

Yes, I'm very aware of the Poetic books -- your keyboard language is interesting to read -- 'wiv dat' -- just an observation.

A great deal of Godly wisdom is found in those books. God inspired their authors to write them for a reason.

And, of course all kids are different. They grow into adults who are all different. You and I are different. We Do have the same Bible to read.

Parents are their children's first teachers -- What are we teaching them? A lot of daily living is how we live. Day by day. What are we teaching day by day?

We were given the Law in the Old Testament to show us that it's not possible to obey all of it all the time -- but it was given to guide us Until the promised Messiah would be born. When a person Does accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- the Holy Spirit puts it in our hearts. We have a desire to please God. Now -- God desire Relationship with us. We need to be willing to follow His guidance.

yes!! it was a schoolmaster but God give dem 2 us 2 actually prove the inadequacies of us, not sure theres anyone on the planet dat can keep 613 laws, not breaking a single one, keeping dozens at a time!! he was making a point!! break one u break dem all

 

[spiriteddove05]

@spiriteddove05 -- referring you back to your post #9 -- do you have children? I've shared that I have 4 -- in their 30's and 40's. How about you?

i don't think dats really relevant but ive got none!! ur probly gonna give me a speech about ur experiences right!! which is probly gonna be subjective, and not according 2 scripture!!

 

[Brother Paul]

Pslam 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.



Though often twisted by Catholics and Calvinists this merely says David was born as result of his mother and father's lust (not love). The Hebrew poetic is near to hyperbole. This says NOTHING (zero, zilch) about the state pf David's or all peoples spiritual state at birth.

Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

This is only addressing a particular variety of people not ALL! Psalms and Proverbs draw sharp distinction between the righteous and the wicked. This is OBVIOUSLY not addressing those who would be referred to as “the righteous.”

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Yes indeed eventually every one of us sins. As a god unto ourselves, we do what is right in our own eyes as if we are lord (like Satan) – Genesis 3:5 – self lordship and the will to lord over others is the fruit of the tree. The question here is WHEN? This does NOT say babies are born condemned.

The kingdom of God is like unto them....they are the gift of God and BLESSED is the one whose quiver is full. Should one impose that the gift of God are little devils ready for Hellfire? Top me such a thought is blaspheme.

The error came from a judicial interpretation of “in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die” the middle ages Roman Catholic church used this interpretation to mean God would punish them and used this threat to manipulate people...the other Christians the world over did not accept this view and rightly so because in truth it is a warning from Love just like if we as a loving parent tells our child “Do not run out into the busy street for in the day you do you shall surely get hit by a car”. Now if in their self will they disregard our word and do it any way and get hit does this mean WE HIT THEM OR CAUSED THEM TO BE HIT as a punishment?

You see, we loved them so we warned them. but they applied my will not yours be done (I am boss of my own life, no one can tell me what to do, I will do as I please, and so on). It was the expected consequence of that action and attitude and we were trying to save them. So it was with God. His warning then still applies...self lordship and the will to lord over others brings death (spiritually and in the world...men over women, clan against clan, tribe over other tribes, nation over other nations, political or religious philosophy over another).

 

[Brother Paul]

Ashmah in the Hebrew (which is how the Apostles thought regardless of their using Greek to write in, means to do wrong or commit and offense. In the Greek, paraptōma means to fall beside or deviate from the correct path. The word sin here is hamartia which can mean to be without a share in, to miss the mark, or to err and make mistakes. To transgress is anomia and means to not obey the law because of ignorance or to intentionally violate it.

Now in light of this, the Bible tells us “sin” (the wages of which is death…thus death is the product of or consequence due for sin) is a transgression of the law. When we are born we have neither trespassed, sinned, or transgressed even in ignorance and certainly not intentionally, therefore Condemnation/spiritual death is not the state of our birth. Isaiah 49:2 reveals it is OUR sin that separates us from God, not the sins of some ancient relatives or even our immediate parents.