Rapture and Tribulation

[Darian]

[rant status="on" color="hot"]
Continually, I see and hear about the imminent return of Christ to rapture the church in advance of the great tribulation. I see and hear about how the great tribulation is all 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel. Relentlessly, there is talk about believers being left behind coz dey ain't ready. Persistently, I hear of how the rapture will be secret, such that all the "true" believers will vanish, and the rest of the world will be scratching their heads wondering what happened to all those people. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

Does anybody actually read the bible?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The first resurrection PRECEDES the rapture.

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Every man Jack, and every woman Jill, and every faithful child who will be murdered during the great tribulation for the sake of Christ, having His testimony, will take part in the first resurrection, and the first resurrection precedes the rapture.

The great tribulation is the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel, not the whole of it, this being clearly and thoroughly extant in the 24th chapter of Matthew, and in the 27th verse of Daniel chapter 9.
The pre-trib/secret rapture/imminent return doctrines first appeared in the year 1830, in the confines of the Catholic Apostolic Church in England, under the leadership of Edward Irving. A woman allegedly received a "word" from the Holy Spirit claiming these things to be true, even though there isn't a single sentence in the bible which supports it unless half of relevant prophecy is ignored. Shortly thereafter, John Darby, of the Plymouth Brethren, who owned a printing press, began to spread the foolishness far and wide with great enthusiasm, and here we are today, stuck with fat, lurching heresy, sweating up the pews of thousands of Christian labeled churches. What garbage.

How many will have their chance at salvation destroyed because, having been taught they will be taken up before the tribulation, find themselves on the Earth when the killing begins? How many adherents of the church will turn away from Christ instead of into saving faith because of the same heresy?

Secret Rapture? Not hardly. Mark 13: 24-27
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The two witnesses will begin their testimony in Jerusalem on the first day of the great tribulation, and at the end of the tribulation, three days after they are killed, they will stand up on their feet, and be caught up to heaven in the rapture, as it is called, even though the word does not appear in the bible.

The pre-trib/imminent return/secret rapture doctrines are cozy and warm, but they are grand and overt heresies that have no place at all in the truth of the matter. The church at large needs to repent of these lies.
[/rant]

 

[TC4JC]

Hi Darian,
Its ok to have your beliefs , but to say that those that have a different view regarding the rapture and the Tribulation is heresy, garbage and lies , sort of stings a little. I am a pre Trib rapture before Tribulation kind of guy, and if you like, I can show you how I came to that conclusion. Didn't have anything to do with what happened in 1830. Just comparing scripture to scripture , and allowing the Holy Spirit to show me what I have learned. Nothing secret about it , and there aren't any multiple raptures as I've seen people believe. I don't think that end times events will be like watching a DVD , and there are several ways it will unfold , just press alternate ending, and a different prophecy is available to choose. Let me know if you are interested in how I came to my belief, and I'll share it with you. I'm not always on here, due to work, but I'll give it my best try.

 

[grandmamary1219]

Yes, I agree that the OP is an offensive post unnecessarily slamming those with any rapture view other than the OPs which I do not agree with either. But why do we relentlessly argue these viewpoints?

While I strongly disagree with the OPs view, I do not think it prudent to argue and sling mud back at him.

Is Christ best served in this manner?

GotQuestions has an excellent overview of the different viewpoints on the subject of the rapture, and I believe that all readers to THIS thread would be best served by visiting the GotQuestions article on this subject.

 

[james1523]

I believe in a partial rapture and that only those deserving of it will make it. Who are we kidding if we believe that just because we believe in Christ we deserve to get raptured along with the "Mother Teresas" of the world who truly live their life for Christ and serving others? As an adherent, though not a follower, of Darby and others, I believe in all of the so-called heresies in the OP . No one has been able to fit the whole Bible into their point of view, whether that is pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib, and this leads to arguments between the various adherents. I believe the Bible shows a number of resurrections, and whichever resurrection we get to participate in will depend upon whether we are deserving of it. As the Bible says in Rev 20:6, blessed and holy are those who participate in the first resurrection - that is, those deserving of it (those martyred for Christ, see verse 4) , the rest of the dead (verse 5) did not get resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. Paul was one who hoped and strived to be one to participate in the first resurrection of the dead (Phil 3:11). There are a number of resurrections/raptures, the partial rapture doctrine fits the Bible better than the others.

 

[simpleservant]

James, although I firmly believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, I will save that discussion for another time. But I do find something very troubling in your post. You stated in your idea of a partial/multi- rapture that we will be taken up at different times based on when we are "deserving" to be called up. Not one syllable of one verse of the Bible tells us this. No one, I repeat, no one is "deserving" to be raptured, to be called up into the presence of our Lord. We will be raptured from the coming horrors of this world because of our faith in Christ, not because of our works for Christ. I have spent the last several years of my life in service to the Lord daily, and not once have I thought or should I ever think I deserve to be caught up with the Lord before the guy who just minutes ago came to know our Lord. Christ promise to the Church(Revelation 3:10) does not say He will only keep those from the hour of testing that are "deserving", but will protect all who keep His Word, who keep Him in their heart, and look to Him only for their hope and salvation.

This is one place where we need to tread lightly, I would say not tread at all. Our works, what we deserve, will only come into play as we are rewarded after this life. The treasures that will be laid at our feet because all we have done to bring glory to God's Name while in this life. God's Word makes it absolutely clear, we will not enter the doors of Heaven because of our works, but because of faith in His Grace, and His Grace alone(Ephesians 2:8). That door will also not open to us through the Rapture because of our works. And not once does the Lord tells us that any of our works will cause that door to open any faster.

 

[RJ]

• I for one believe in the Pre- tribulation rapture ( the changing in a wink of an eye) when Christ will gather, at that time, his church of true believers and everyone else will be left behind.
• You can call me a Heretic or a Lier about what I feel that scripture tells me but, if I were you, I would be more concerned with and prepared for your immenent physical death, when you will certainly meet your personal and final Tribulation or Armeagedon.
• Either way, Christ's return or your death, you're going to come "Face to Face" with Jesus Christ, that should be of ultimate concern!

 

[james1523]

James, although I firmly believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, I will save that discussion for another time. But I do find something very troubling in your post. You stated in your idea of a partial/multi- rapture that we will be taken up at different times based on when we are "deserving" to be called up. Not one syllable of one verse of the Bible tells us this. No one, I repeat, no one is "deserving" to be raptured, to be called up into the presence of our Lord. We will be raptured from the coming horrors of this world because of our faith in Christ, not because of our works for Christ. I have spent the last several years of my life in service to the Lord daily, and not once have I thought or should I ever think I deserve to be caught up with the Lord before the guy who just minutes ago came to know our Lord. Christ promise to the Church(Revelation 3:10) does not say He will only keep those from the hour of testing that are "deserving", but will protect all who keep His Word, who keep Him in their heart, and look to Him only for their hope and salvation.

This is one place where we need to tread lightly, I would say not tread at all. Our works, what we deserve, will only come into play as we are rewarded after this life. The treasures that will be laid at our feet because all we have done to bring glory to God's Name while in this life. God's Word makes it absolutely clear, we will not enter the doors of Heaven because of our works, but because of faith in His Grace, and His Grace alone(Ephesians 2:8). That door will also not open to us through the Rapture because of our works. And not once does the Lord tells us that any of our works will cause that door to open any faster.

Jesus's blood does not cover us for protection from earthly trials, tribulations and martyrdom. So we cannot really make a claim to rapture because of what Jesus did on the cross. Our only claim is to Heaven. Therefore the "Grace versus works" argument does not apply to this topic of rapture, as it applies to the topic of salvation.

I believe in the pre-trib rapture also however I believe the view that millions of people will be raptured (as portrayed in books and movies) "just because" is not considering the nature of rapture as revealed in the Bible and is also unjust (it is unjust, that the extra-faithful should endure tribulation with the unfaithful, just as it is unjust that both the wise and foolish virgins get the same reward).

The best Biblical proof I can give for a selective pre-tribulation rapture based on faithfulness/readiness is Gen 5:24:
Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Most Christians view Enoch's rapture as an example of a miracle and probably don't think much further than that. However I believe it is recorded there for a greater purpose and Enoch's rapture can be considered as an Old Testament (prophetic) foreshadowing of the New Testament rapture. From this, we can learn a number of things about the New Testament rapture:
a) It is highly selective, and available only to a few. Enoch was only one person, and there is no record of anyone else being raptured in the whole Bible, so it is a rare thing.
b) it requires a close walk with God. Enoch was an exemption to the norm, a man who lived an upright life in close fellowship with God.
c) If we are not living like Enoch's, we cannot expect to be raptured. Even if we are living like Enoch's, we cannot expect to be raptured - in the eyes of God, a martyrdom is greater than a rapture. Death, to die once, and then judgement, is the norm, for most people, and there will be a general resurrection for those who missed out on the rapture.

The grace vs works argument applies to salvation but not to rapture. Anyhow, the concept of reward for readiness is in the Bible (e.g. the 10 virgins, 5 were ready, 5 were not). Rapture is the reward for readiness. The place of works in this, is the difference between the virgins who had oil in their lamps (due to their efforts/works), and the ones that didn't (due to laziness, indifference). This is where the partial rapture idea is closer to what the Bible teaches than pure pre-trib or post-trib - the Bible shows there will be a pre-trib rapture (debatable I know), yet the Bible also shows the Church will still be on the Earth during the tribulation (Revelation 12:6, 14). Now on this point the pre-trib and post-trib will argue, but the partial rapture accounts for both views and there is no argument. The pre-trib rapture is not really a right given to all, but a reward given to a few. .A pre-tribulation rapture is an exception, and contrary to the movies which show worldwide chaos when pilots get raptured out of planes etc, the number of people raptured may be as few as 10 worldwide, and unlikely to be noticed by anyone ( a secret rapture).

 

[simpleservant]

I am sorry James, but your own words disprove your point. The rapture is a direct result of faith, not of works, and Enoch proves it. Simply read what Hebrews 11:5-6 tells us. It says that by faith Enoch was taken up, because he was pleasing to the Lord. The next verse then goes on to tell us, that without faith we cannot be pleasing to God. Enoch was taken up because of his faith, not because of his works. That is not my opinion, or your opinion, but the fact of God's Word. We will be taken up because of our faith, not because of how many works we perform on this earth. You cannot, and will not, ever earn your way onto the Rapture.

And I am sorry, but Enoch was not alone. Elijah was also taken up to Heaven( 2 Kings 2:11). Both are examples of ones who the Lord keep from death because of their faith, not because of their works.

And as far as your example of the 10 Virgins(Bridesmaids), read both Matthew 24 and 25 in full. Jesus is answering the questions the Disciples asked Him about the end of this Age, and His Second Coming. The 10 Virgins are a story of readiness, that we should always be prepared for Christ return. Just like the groom, Christ could come for His Bride at any second. In the text of the story of a Jewish wedding that Christ was using to explain His Second Coming, we need to look no farther than the actions of the groom to know that he only returned once for his bride,so the bride must always be faithful and ready for his return to bring her to him, into the house he prepared for her. No groom ever came for his bride multiple times! And if you look closely at the story of the 10 Virgins, you will see they were to have their lamps ready and prepared, filled with oil. Any Biblical scholar worth his salt will tell you that the oil is representative of the Holy Spirit in Christ parable of the 10 Virgins, thus making the story an issue of faith, not one of works. Christ was telling them that our acceptance of Him and our faith in Him will have us prepared for His return, not the works that we might be doing.

Again I would suggest to you to read Revelations 3:10, "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." That promise is not given to a few of us, but all of us who have Christ as our Savior. Not one word of the Bible teaches us that the Rapture is a reward for a few, but the promise given to all who have faith in Christ. Not one word tells us that all the works in the world will cause us to be a part of the Rapture. We will be "caught up" because of our faith, because of the salvation we have found in and through Christ. How many will that be, only God can answer that. But I can say with certainty that the world will notice, and I certainly have far more respect, trust, and devotion in His Word than to speculate by putting a number like 10 on it.

 

[james1523]

I am sorry James, but your own words disprove your point. The rapture is a direct result of faith, not of works, and Enoch proves it. Simply read what Hebrews 11:5-6 tells us. It says that by faith Enoch was taken up, because he was pleasing to the Lord. The next verse then goes on to tell us, that without faith we cannot be pleasing to God. Enoch was taken up because of his faith, not because of his works. That is not my opinion, or your opinion, but the fact of God's Word. We will be taken up because of our faith, not because of how many works we perform on this earth. You cannot, and will not, ever earn your way onto the Rapture.

And I am sorry, but Enoch was not alone. Elijah was also taken up to Heaven( 2 Kings 2:11). Both are examples of ones who the Lord keep from death because of their faith, not because of their works.

And as far as your example of the 10 Virgins(Bridesmaids), read both Matthew 24 and 25 in full. Jesus is answering the questions the Disciples asked Him about the end of this Age, and His Second Coming. The 10 Virgins are a story of readiness, that we should always be prepared for Christ return. Just like the groom, Christ could come for His Bride at any second. In the text of the story of a Jewish wedding that Christ was using to explain His Second Coming, we need to look no farther than the actions of the groom to know that he only returned once for his bride,so the bride must always be faithful and ready for his return to bring her to him, into the house he prepared for her. No groom ever came for his bride multiple times! And if you look closely at the story of the 10 Virgins, you will see they were to have their lamps ready and prepared, filled with oil. Any Biblical scholar worth his salt will tell you that the oil is representative of the Holy Spirit in Christ parable of the 10 Virgins, thus making the story an issue of faith, not one of works. Christ was telling them that our acceptance of Him and our faith in Him will have us prepared for His return, not the works that we might be doing.

Again I would suggest to you to read Revelations 3:10, "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." That promise is not given to a few of us, but all of us who have Christ as our Savior. Not one word of the Bible teaches us that the Rapture is a reward for a few, but the promise given to all who have faith in Christ. Not one word tells us that all the works in the world will cause us to be a part of the Rapture. We will be "caught up" because of our faith, because of the salvation we have found in and through Christ. How many will that be, only God can answer that. But I can say with certainty that the world will notice, and I certainly have far more respect, trust, and devotion in His Word than to speculate by putting a number like 10 on it.

Rev 3:10 proves that rapture is conditional upon us doing something -

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The Bible also says, that the Bride has prepared herself and made herself ready (Rev 19:7). Many Christians are not preparing themselves and ready, so they won't be raptured. To say that those who don't prepare themselves get the same rewards as those who don't, is unjust and God is not unrighteous.

Regarding Enoch's faith and works, the Bible says Enoch "walked". Walking includes works. It includes everything Enoch did over his lifetime. It does not say Enoch was raptured because of mental faith or believe "alone". The bible says faith (i.e. mere mental belief) without works (corresponding actions) is dead and faith is not alone. James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. That is not my opinion, that is what the Bible says.

Yes, Elijah as well, but these are very special people. In the whole Bible, only two special people were raptured (is there a third?). Most go through martyrdom, and there is no shame in that either, in fact there is special reward for martyrs that raptured ones don't get (Rev 2:10).

The Bible is not so clear that the rapture is a "promise given to all who have faith in Christ". You are confusing rapture with salvation and the resurrection. Salvation and resurrection are firm promises, that every Christian can agree upon because it is clearly in the Bible, however the rapture is not, and I'm not sure how many non-biblical sources (e.g. popular Christian books, magazines etc) you may have used to arrive at that conclusion, but give two Christians a Bible, and they will be able to agree on resurrection and salvation because it is clear, but they probably won't be able to agree on rapture because it is not so clear. The resurrection is clear in the gospels but not the rapture. This is further indication that the rapture is not a widescale and general thing (like the resurrection is), otherwise the Bible would be more clear about it, and it would be something about which all Christians would agree.

 

[simpleservant]

James, Revelation 19:7 is dealing with the body of Christ after the Lord's return at the end of the Tribulation, after He is reigning on this earth. It is not talking about the Rapture, and you know that, and there is no way to twist the verse to try to make it fit what you are speculating on.

And your reference to Enoch, is just as plain inaccurate, beyond speculation. The Hebrew word for walked used in the verse in Genesis 5:24 that you referenced, means 'to journey faithfully", "to proceed in fellowship". It has absolutely nothing to do with works, and is why Hebrews 11:5 clearly states that Enoch was taken up because of his faith. And your reference to faith is James 2:24 is plainly your opinion, it is not what the Bible says. Faith is not "mere mental belief". Faith is far more! I may "believe" I will wake up tomorrow, but I know that if I do not exactly where I will be, and in Whose Presence I will stand forever. Faith is certainty. Faith inspires us, faith drives us, faith directs us, and faith molds us. It is through the actions that are inspired and called on us by our faith that others see Christ reflected in us. It is because of the justification of our faith that we can find assurance in our salvation, not by our works(Romans 5:1). Our works do not sanctify us, grace through faith does. Our works are an outcome of that faith, as we strive to have Christ reflected in us each day. Faith calls our works into action.

And your reference to Revelation 2:10 is just as speculative. To agree with the reply you made to the verse would be to say that the Lord would be making a mistake by calling us up in the Rapture, because by doing so it would cost us a reward we could receive by staying here during the Tribulation. By your analogy,that God will only take the handful of most loyal and hard-working followers in the first of many raptures, then God would be denying His greatest followers a "great reward" they could receive by living through part of the Tribulation, and dying in it for Christ. Anyone who even takes the time to read Revelation 2:10, quickly realizes that this is a specific message to the church in Smyrna, and is preparing them for what they would soon face as a loyal church. It is not talking about the Tribulation. To try to make it fit martyrs that will die for Christ in the Tribulation is to twist His Word to try to make it fit one's own personal beliefs.

This is where my discussion with you on this issue ends James. Anyone can pick up there Bible and read for themselves the verses that have been mentioned. And if they seek the Truth, the Holy Spirit will show them the purpose and desire the Lord has in giving us every single verse. Men may mislead us, the Holy Spirit never will. Faithful. God-seeking men may disagree on the timing of the Rapture, but they will always agree on the principles and purpose of God's Word, unless they seek to make God's Word fit their own personal beliefs. And James, I truly doubt if even you believe some of the things you have stated. I doubt that you believe in a Partial/Multi Rapture. If you truly did, you would not be spending time on this site, or for that matter on any site. If you truly did believe that the Rapture was work based, you would be spending every waking moment working for the Lord. You would do every thing in your power to be one of those ten or so you think will be taken first, so you would not have to spend a single moment going through the horrors that the Tribulation will hold.

 

[grandmamary1219]

Thanks simpleservant for adding some clarity to a subject that has been very badly mishandled (the rapture of the church age saints) in multiple threads. It is refreshing to have a true scholar among us. I, for one, greatly appreciate sound bible teaching by one qualified to rightly divide the Word of God.

 

[james1523]

And your reference to Enoch, is just as plain inaccurate, beyond speculation. The Hebrew word for walked used in the verse in Genesis 5:24that you referenced, means 'to journey faithfully", "to proceed in fellowship". It has absolutely nothing to do with works, and is why Hebrews 11:5clearly states that Enoch was taken up because of his faith. And your reference to faith is James 2:24is plainly your opinion, it is not what the Bible says. Faith is not "mere mental belief". Faith is far more! I may "believe" I will wake up tomorrow, but I know that if I do not exactly where I will be, and in Whose Presence I will stand forever. Faith is certainty. Faith inspires us, faith drives us, faith directs us, and faith molds us. It is through the actions that are inspired and called on us by our faith that others see Christ reflected in us. It is because of the justification of our faith that we can find assurance in our salvation, not by our works(Romans 5:1). Our works do not sanctify us, grace through faith does. Our works are an outcome of that faith, as we strive to have Christ reflected in us each day. Faith calls our works into action.

And your reference to Revelation 2:10is just as speculative. To agree with the reply you made to the verse would be to say that the Lord would be making a mistake by calling us up in the Rapture, because by doing so it would cost us a reward we could receive by staying here during the Tribulation. By your analogy,that God will only take the handful of most loyal and hard-working followers in the first of many raptures, then God would be denying His greatest followers a "great reward" they could receive by living through part of the Tribulation, and dying in it for Christ. Anyone who even takes the time to read Revelation 2:10, quickly realizes that this is a specific message to the church in Smyrna, and is preparing them for what they would soon face as a loyal church. It is not talking about the Tribulation. To try to make it fit martyrs that will die for Christ in the Tribulation is to twist His Word to try to make it fit one's own personal beliefs.

What about Revelation 6:9-11 or Revelation 20:4, which proves that there are martyrs who die for their faith during the tribulation period (verse 11 in particular). The fact that there are some martyrs during the tribulation period, disproves the general/all pre-trib rapture theory completely. So let us think about this logically - a) there is a pre-tribulation rapture, and b)some Christians will be martyred during the tribulation, therefore c) not everyone will participate in the pre-trib rapture.

Both pre-trib and post-trib adherents will argue back and forth on points a) and b) continually, without arriving at the obvious conclusion of c).

I doubt that you believe in a Partial/Multi Rapture. If you truly did, you would not be spending time on this site, or for that matter on any site. If you truly did believe that the Rapture was work based, you would be spending every waking moment working for the Lord. You would do every thing in your power to be one of those ten or so you think will be taken first, so you would not have to spend a single moment going through the horrors that the Tribulation will hold.

Regarding the Hebrew definition, are you saying that a person can journey faithfully with God without doing anything? That they can merely "believe" they way through life to attain the blessings of God? I would think that a faithful journey implies belief and action (works), working together as I believe James 2:24 says.

Your presumption of what I should be doing is not accounting for the fact that I may not be trying to be one of the 10 raptured, because a) I do not fear death and suffering, or b) God promises to protect the church during the tribulation period. I would think that a self-denying Christian would be willing to go through the Tribulation for Christ's sake and not be overly concerned with being one of the few to escape it. If the apostle Paul's life is anything to go by, as an example to us, note his self-less and Christ-focussed attitude to death:

Phil 1:21-23
1 All I live for is Christ, and to die would give me more blessing.
22 If I keep on living, then I will keep on doing my good work. I really do not know which I want more, to live or to die.
23 I am caught between these two. I want to die and go to be with Christ, which would be very much better.

 

[grandmamary1219]

I could have quoted Revelation 6:9-11, which proves that there are martyrs who die for their faith during the tribulation period (verse 11 in particular). The fact that there are some martyrs during the tribulation period, disproves the general/all pre-trib rapture theory completely. The idea that all will be raptured is untrue, and therefore must be twisting God's Word.

These are the tribulation saints who come to faith during Daniel's 70th week.

The Church Bride exits (is raptured, removed from planet earth) in Revelation 4:1.

I have no doubt you will stick to your faulty interpretations of scripture no matter what proofs you are given that you are teaching your own thoughts on the bible.

 

[grandmamary1219]

Regarding the Hebrew definition, are you saying that a person can journey faithfully with God without doing anything? That they can merely "believe" they way through life to attain the blessings of God? I would think that a faithful journey implies belief and action (works), working together as I believe James 2:24 says.

The Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the time of salvation, James. The Holy Spirit then begins a work inside of each believer called progressive sanctification, and yes, the believer does cooperate with this sanctification process and there will be fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, manifest in a believer's life. The works of God is this: To believe upon Jesus whom He sent. That is not anything we can boast about either, because God gives us our faith.

No room for boasting about works, James! NONE. It is all by the grace of God.

 

[james1523]

These are the tribulation saints who come to faith during Daniel's 70th week.

The Church Bride exits (is raptured, removed from planet earth) in Revelation 4:1.

I have no doubt you will stick to your faulty interpretations of scripture no matter what proofs you are given that you are teaching your own thoughts on the bible.

I always found it hard to believe that tribulation saints miraculously come to faith when the Church has already left, given that the Church's main responsibility on Earth is evangelism and maturing/growth of the Saints (to such a degree that they would rather die for Christ than worship the Beast).
How are they supposed to come to such a strong faith if the church has already left?

I have watched most of the Left Behind movies by the way, so I am familiar with most of these ideas. I may change my views if convinced, as I used to believe in post-tribulation rapture, so even me believing that there is a pre-tribulation rapture is a big step for me.

 

[james1523]

The Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the time of salvation, James. The Holy Spirit then begins a work inside of each believer called progressive sanctification, and yes, the believer does cooperate with this sanctification process and there will be fruit, the fruit of the Spirit, manifest in a believer's life. The works of God is this: To believe upon Jesus whom He sent. That is not anything we can boast about either, because God gives us our faith.

No room for boasting about works, James! NONE. It is all by the grace of God.

I agree, that is true for salvation yes, but for rewards (and I consider rapture a reward, as it has nothing to do with our salvation), it depends upon our works, faithfulness etc, though not of ourselves, but with cooperation with the Spirit. Jesus died for our sins so that we may escape hell, He didn't die for our rewards so that we may escape death. Also, I don't think anyone in their right mind would boast about making it to the rapture, I think they would be grateful/thankful, perhaps even concerned for those they have left behind.

 

[grandmamary1219]

The tribulation saints will be made up of all those who found the bible and the scriptures hard to believe, James. They will "get a revelation" after the rapture of the Church Bride. And yes, those "tribulation saints" will have to suffer the horrors of the great tribulation. But they will receive a martyrs crown for their newfound true faith.

May we all come to a true faith before the great tribulation!

 

[james1523]

The tribulation saints will be made up of all those who found the bible and the scriptures hard to believe, James. They will "get a revelation" after the rapture of the Church Bride. And yes, those "tribulation saints" will have to suffer the horrors of the great tribulation. But they will receive a martyrs crown for their newfound true faith.

May we all come to a true faith before the great tribulation!

Although it is possible, that they will get a revelation and turn to the Bible (as opposed to the writings of other religions or cults/sects like JW's and Mormons) sounds like pure assumption and speculation to me. There is nothing in the Bible which gives such detail to that, so for me this is a "maybe" rather than a definite yes.

 

[james1523]

The timing of the rapture and end-time events depends upon the works of the Church in fulfilling the great commission to all parts of the Earth (Mark 13:10).
The need to be watchful, awake and ready to participate in the rapture is given by Matthew 25:13, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, Revelation 3:3.
The general pre-tribulation doctrine ignores the plain words of the Bible to be sober, watch and be ready.
For the general pre-tribulation believer, there is no need to be awake, sober or watchful, as they will be raptured anyway (regardless).

 

[simpleservant]

Your presumption of what I should be doing is not accounting for the fact that I may not be trying to be one of the 10 raptured, because a) I do not fear death and suffering, or b) God promises to protect the church during the tribulation period. I would think that a self-denying Christian would be willing to go through the Tribulation for Christ's sake and not be overly concerned with being one of the few to escape it. If the apostle Paul's life is anything to go by, as an example to us, note his self-less and Christ-focussed attitude to death:

James, I have talked to alot of people over the years about Christ, and about the coming Tribulation. I must admit, you are the first I have ever met who desired to go through the Tribulation! We must be willing to give all for Christ, even our life if the situation demands it. But just because Christ calls us to be willing to give all, does not mean that Christ desires all. The love that Christ has for each of us is so strong, it could never desire the loss of our physical life. To know that love, is to know that desire. That is a love and desire that Paul knew,Paul taught, and Paul loved. Jesus knew that Paul would die by giving his life for that love, but not once did Christ ever desire to see Paul die for that love. And James, the same desire that Christ had for Paul, he has for each of us, He has for you.

I truly pray for you James. I pray that Christ will help you experience that love, and the Holy Spirit will lead you to understand that desire. I also pray that you, and everyone who might read this thread, will not have to see one moment of what the Tribulation holds.