Quit!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter ushalk
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my point has never been do not go to church. I go to church and I love it. I strongly disagree with the way it has been taught and that we should evangelize church before we do Christ. That is false and not right. many people in America believe that they are saved because they were told all about church and how church saves and volunteering to the church is proof of your salvation. That is all lies.
Brighthouse
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Please do give me one example of a church which places itself or its members above Jesus. So I can understand you better thanks bro
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Sorry but this makes no sense. The Bible is very clear that fellowship within the body a.k.a. church is very important and crucial to spiritual growth. The Bible is clear to go out and make disciples and reach the lost to all the ends of the earth.
You're certainly not going to persuade me to stop reaching out to people through normal everyday activities such as having coffee with a stranger or go to the movies or maybe playing some sports for the sake of trying to reach the lost souls.
B-A-C
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As many have stated over and over, and over, and over... again here... (and over.. and over)
The church isn't necessarily a building (you have to meet somewhere, sometimes it's cold and rainy). but it is necessarily a group of people. One person cannot make a church. I'm not sure what the minimum
number of members required is, but I know it's more than one (myself) and probably more than two.
You cannot love one another, pray for one another, lift up and encourage one another, confess our sins to one another, and share testimonies with one another... if there is no "another".
I dare say, if you're trying to walk the Christian way alone, you aren't doing the things Jesus told us to do.
The church isn't necessarily a building (you have to meet somewhere, sometimes it's cold and rainy). but it is necessarily a group of people. One person cannot make a church. I'm not sure what the minimum
number of members required is, but I know it's more than one (myself) and probably more than two.
You cannot love one another, pray for one another, lift up and encourage one another, confess our sins to one another, and share testimonies with one another... if there is no "another".
I dare say, if you're trying to walk the Christian way alone, you aren't doing the things Jesus told us to do.
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I believe brother that is what one would call "stepping out in faith". Alleluia!
SpiritLedEd
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It's the subtle incursion of prideful thinking/acting that infects the organization and spreads, as the Scripture says (Gal 5:9), "through the whole lump of dough" (Hierarchy). No denomination is exempt from its attack.
SLE
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B-A-C
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Do you have a scripture that says this?
Brighthouse
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SpiritledEd You said no denomination exempt from this attack.The church at Philadelphia had no such problem.( rev 3:7-10) I know what you are saying brother,the only point I am looking to make to this brother is this!( rom 2:1-4!!!) If we were to see an animal from a distance,we could call it by its name,but to say its smells to without getting nearer to it, LOL How would you react if someone said said something about you,and they did not really even know you?? lol That is the only point I am looking to make here. We cannot put the whole church in one boat,and call it a ship. A boat, is not a ship! hehe
with the body of believers yes. it does not say where it has to be and there is no such thing as denomination in the Bible. but we can see what the bible truly states about buildings if everyone would like.
do you have a scripture that points to building and denominations? I will be putting many scriptures up soon.
I actually feel a lot of peace. it does not seem as though anyone is really angry or putting anyone down or anything like that. we all seem to be having an awesome discussion in my book. great communication amongst the brethren.
anytime a church goes out to bring people in without first sharing Christ with the people and them accepting Christ first is an example.
Brighthouse
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ah ok!!!! IC much better now! thanks bro!!
B-A-C
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Not denominations, I do not support them either. As far as buildings...
Matt 21:12; And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.
Matt 21:13; And He *said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."
Matt 21:14; And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.
Matt 21:23; When Jesus entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?"
Matt 24:1; Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
Mark 11:11; Jesus entered Jerusalem and came into the temple; and after looking around at everything, He left for Bethany with the twelve, since it was already late.
Mark 11:15; Then they *came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves;
Mark 11:16; and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple.
Mark 11:17; And He began to teach and say to them, "Is it not written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS'? But you have made it a ROBBERS' DEN."
Mark 11:27; They *came again to Jerusalem. And as He was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders *came to Him,
Mark 12:35; And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?
Mark 13:1; As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"
It seems Jesus spent a lot of time in the temple, in fact it says He was there everyday.
Mark 14:49; "Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures."
He was in the temple even when He was 12 years old.
Luke 2:46; Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
Luke 19:45; Jesus entered the temple and began to drive out those who were selling,
Luke 19:46; saying to them, "It is written, 'AND MY HOUSE SHALL BE A HOUSE OF PRAYER,' but you have made it a ROBBERS' DEN."
Luke 19:47; And He was teaching daily in the temple; but the chief priests and the scribes and the leading men among the people were trying to destroy Him,
Luke 20:1; On one of the days while He was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders confronted Him,
Luke 21:37; Now during the day He was teaching in the temple, but at evening He would go out and spend the night on the mount that is called Olivet.
Luke 21:38; And all the people would get up early in the morning to come to Him in the temple to listen to Him.
The disciple were also in the temple after Jesus ascended.
Luke 24:52; And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
Luke 24:53; and were continually in the temple praising God
John 5:14; Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."
John 7:14; But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach.
John 7:28; Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, "You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.
John 8:2; Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.
John 8:20; These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.
John 8:59; Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
John 10:23; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
John 18:20; Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.
Where did the early church in Jerusalem meet?
Acts 2:46; Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
Acts 2:47; praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Acts 3:1; Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the ninth hour, the hour of prayer.
Where did the angel tell Peter to preach?
Acts 5:19; But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the gates of the prison, and taking them out he said,
Acts 5:20; "Go, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life."
Acts 5:21; Upon hearing this, they entered into the temple about daybreak and began to teach. Now when the high priest and his associates came, they called the Council together, even all the Senate of the sons of Israel, and sent orders to the prison house for them to be brought.
Acts 5:42; And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.
Acts 21:26; Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.
Acts 21:28; crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
Acts 21:29; For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple.
Acts 21:30; Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
The verse above seems to indicate that perhaps Paul never took Trophimus into the temple, but Paul himself was in the temple frequently.
Acts 22:17; "It happened when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I fell into a trance
Acts 26:21; "For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death.
Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
I probably missed a few, but I think that is enough to show that Jesus, the disciples, and Paul all frequented the temple many times. (It sounds like almost every day).
There are a few verses that say the early (Christian) church met in the temple.
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I think it is perfectly fine to focus on the church because the church is Christ (Matt 25:40, Acts 9:4). The church and Christ should be one, so whether a person sees the Body or sees the Head they are still seeing Christ.
I don't think there is any rule in scripture about not bringing believers into the church first before sharing with them about Christ.
I personally am happy if unbelievers come and sit in church and observe.
I know a number of people who became Christians because they saw a movie or because they were attracted to the church first.
Before a person sees Christ they see us, or Christ in us, the Bible says the church is like a light on top of a hill. The light that is shining is our light, that should attract people.
A church should always be open and welcome to unbelievers.
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Hello again brother!
Now how does one assemble with other believers and exclude the non-believer, when the Biblical church references point to allowing for their presence? I can only assume from the little you've said in defining what is meant by church in the Bible, that it holds a specific though different significance for you then many here.
I am most interested in seeing the Biblical references you are putting together which you mention in another post, and how you will bring together the different thoughts so far talked about supporting the position you hold.
Just praying that it is not heading towards the spiritual verses temporal assemblage of believers.
YBIC
C4E
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
SpiritLedEd
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There were no denominations as we know them in the first century, but, 1 Cor 1:10 points out the divisiveness that had sprung up in the Corinthian church. It seems to me that such open quarreling is a sign of prideful thinking/behavior.
SLE
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In the early church, there were no denominations. The Christians were identified by the city or town in which they lived - every reference to church in the New Testament is accompanied by identification to the city name (Ephesus, Corinth, Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, etc) in which the believers dwelt. Those who support denominations have no Scripture to stand on because we can find no reference to churches other than by the city or town name.
Division in the Corinthian church was the issue of believers dividing themselves so that there were more than one sect, group or "church" within a city area.
The concept of having so-called "spiritual" unity yet remaining divided in practice is not biblical. The normal situation is to have no denominations within a city, but only a single, visible and identifiable church.
Hence, Scripture refers to church as "the church", because there was only one church, not "your church" or "my church". Careless speaking among Christians as "your church" and "my church" is not Biblical and indicates lack of understanding that every believer in Christ is brethren and member of the same church.
Any town, city or village which has more than one church is a defilement of God's will and not biblical, which is why God cannot bless that city when its people remain in division (Ps 133).
Any person who establishes a second, third or fourth church in a city in which a church already exists is guilty of defiling God's temple (1 Cor 3:17). God desires growth of a single church not competition between two or more groups.
Denominations and divisions are not solutions to problems in the church. The Bible gives no authorization to establish a replacement church when a church becomes degraded. Instead, as indicated by the 7 churches (Rev 2-3), God's goal is reformation not replacement.
The so-called churches that are established loosely under a man's name (e.g. Lutheran), ministry (e.g. healing), or nations (e.g. Church of England) , or language (e.g. Chinese church) or doctrinal emphasis (e.g. pentecostal, or non-denominational), or governmental structure (e.g. presbyterian), are not real churches in the Biblical sense, but ministries and service to the body of Christ. They are not replacements for the local church identified by city name.
The situation today is that millions of Christians attend church without realizing that they are not real churches but organizational divisions which are defilement of God's temple, or ministries which are primarily to serve and build up the church.
The majority of Christians have never attended and have no concept of a real biblical church because they have only met in a division and justified it according to their own opinions, preferences and concepts.
The issue is that after salvation a newly saved believer is taught, told, thinks or assumes that they may choose whichever church (i.e. denomination) they wish to attend.
Instead, they must be taught they are automatically part of the one church in whatever place they live which has nothing to do with denominations or organizations or buildings.
They are not taught the truth concerning the oneness and unity of the body of Christ.
They are not taught the importance of seeking God's will for such matters as church, and that they are not free to choose according to their or someone else's preferences. Instead they are taught or told to "choose a church that they like".
The solution is to turn to the Lord with an unveiled heart so that we be set free from our human opinions, preferences and concepts and view the church as God views it (2 Cor 3:16).
Those who support divisions do not fully comprehend the price Christ paid on the cross which was not for many isolated individuals but for the church (Eph 5:25) nor the desire of Christ's heart to have unity among the believers (John 17), nor the will of God concerning the kingdom of God and future prophecy which are practically related to the matter of having one church (Eph 4:3-6).
Division in the Corinthian church was the issue of believers dividing themselves so that there were more than one sect, group or "church" within a city area.
The concept of having so-called "spiritual" unity yet remaining divided in practice is not biblical. The normal situation is to have no denominations within a city, but only a single, visible and identifiable church.
Hence, Scripture refers to church as "the church", because there was only one church, not "your church" or "my church". Careless speaking among Christians as "your church" and "my church" is not Biblical and indicates lack of understanding that every believer in Christ is brethren and member of the same church.
Any town, city or village which has more than one church is a defilement of God's will and not biblical, which is why God cannot bless that city when its people remain in division (Ps 133).
Any person who establishes a second, third or fourth church in a city in which a church already exists is guilty of defiling God's temple (1 Cor 3:17). God desires growth of a single church not competition between two or more groups.
Denominations and divisions are not solutions to problems in the church. The Bible gives no authorization to establish a replacement church when a church becomes degraded. Instead, as indicated by the 7 churches (Rev 2-3), God's goal is reformation not replacement.
The so-called churches that are established loosely under a man's name (e.g. Lutheran), ministry (e.g. healing), or nations (e.g. Church of England) , or language (e.g. Chinese church) or doctrinal emphasis (e.g. pentecostal, or non-denominational), or governmental structure (e.g. presbyterian), are not real churches in the Biblical sense, but ministries and service to the body of Christ. They are not replacements for the local church identified by city name.
The situation today is that millions of Christians attend church without realizing that they are not real churches but organizational divisions which are defilement of God's temple, or ministries which are primarily to serve and build up the church.
The majority of Christians have never attended and have no concept of a real biblical church because they have only met in a division and justified it according to their own opinions, preferences and concepts.
The issue is that after salvation a newly saved believer is taught, told, thinks or assumes that they may choose whichever church (i.e. denomination) they wish to attend.
Instead, they must be taught they are automatically part of the one church in whatever place they live which has nothing to do with denominations or organizations or buildings.
They are not taught the truth concerning the oneness and unity of the body of Christ.
They are not taught the importance of seeking God's will for such matters as church, and that they are not free to choose according to their or someone else's preferences. Instead they are taught or told to "choose a church that they like".
The solution is to turn to the Lord with an unveiled heart so that we be set free from our human opinions, preferences and concepts and view the church as God views it (2 Cor 3:16).
Those who support divisions do not fully comprehend the price Christ paid on the cross which was not for many isolated individuals but for the church (Eph 5:25) nor the desire of Christ's heart to have unity among the believers (John 17), nor the will of God concerning the kingdom of God and future prophecy which are practically related to the matter of having one church (Eph 4:3-6).
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