Question about John 2:17

[ImmanuelWithUs]

Hi, friends. I'd love some help.

I was wondering, in John 2:17 (and Psalm 69:9), when Jesus says "My strong love for your Temple completely controls Me..." is it correct to think that Jesus is speaking about Christians when He speaks of the Temple in addition to Him meaning the literal Temple at that time in Jerusalem? Being that believers are now the Temple of God? Is that reasonable to assume that He's speaking of us as well?

I've read that sentence dozens of times before and it just dawned on me that He may mean us, His believers, as well?

Also another question concerning Hosea 2:14-23 (The Lord says, "So, I am going to attract her..." etc.) the Lord is not only speaking to Israel but to all of His that are His chosen, non~Jews as well when God says this? Is this correct?

I've been a Christian just a little longer than a year and I'm confused as to what I should believe concerning when the Lord speaks to Israel everytime in the Bible if He's speaking to all believers as well.


Sorry for all the questions! Thank you for reading and answering in advance.

Nikki

 

[natty threads]

Hi, friends. I'd love some help.

I was wondering, in John 2:17 (and Psalm 69:9), when Jesus says "My strong love for your Temple completely controls Me..." is it correct to think that Jesus is speaking about Christians when He speaks of the Temple in addition to Him meaning the literal Temple at that time in Jerusalem? Being that believers are now the Temple of God? Is that reasonable to assume that He's speaking of us as well?

I don't understand in what way you mean.
Jesus is repeating what David said in a similar situation, where the priests of God are not fulfilling their duties to God, but rather are seeking after their own interests.

So if you mean is He speaking to people today who are members of commercial churches that sell things at the door (yes they exist) then I would have to say Yes. Don't pretend your purpose is to worship God when you are selling stuff.

If you mean is He speaking to all Christians today I would have to say I can't imagine why.

He was really chewing out those working in and those in charge of the Temple.

I've read that sentence dozens of times before and it just dawned on me that He may mean us, His believers, as well?

I don't see how He is talking about anything but the Temple in Jerusalem. If we were the Temple, if we were His Father's House, there would still be animal sacrifice.

Also another question concerning Hosea 2:14-23 (The Lord says, "So, I am going to attract her..." etc.) the Lord is not only speaking to Israel but to all of His that are His chosen, non~Jews as well when God says this? Is this correct?

I've been a Christian just a little longer than a year and I'm confused as to what I should believe concerning when the Lord speaks to Israel everytime in the Bible if He's speaking to all believers as well.

No. When God is speaking to us He says very clearly that it is not to Israel. He mentions several times that He will make a covenant with the gentiles as well. Please do not read yourself into the promise to Israel unless you are a Jew (converted or otherwise).

If the body of believers was really Israel there would not be an additional promise to bring in gentile nations.

One of the places He talks about this is Isaiah chapter 56.
He spells out very clearly what He requires of us to be gathered up with His people.

Sorry for all the questions! Thank you for reading and answering in advance.

Nikki

Read the Bible book by book, not in numbered soundbites, keep the context firmly in mind, and learn the history as much as you possibly can.

Bless up!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I was wondering, in John 2:17 (and Psalm 69:9), when Jesus says "My strong love for your Temple completely controls Me..." is it correct to think that Jesus is speaking about Christians when He speaks of the Temple?

Jesus was speaking of Jewish worshipers and, vicariously, of Christians in that citation. In Matthew 24:1-3, Jesus prophesies the destruction of the temple, which the Roman Army brought to pass in A.D. 70. The Apostles are horrified at the idea, but Jesus ignores their frantic questions and moves on to teach them some things that were really important to Him. (Mt 24: 4-35)

While Jesus himself worshipped at the temple and in synagogues and most Christians generally use buildings known as "churches" for worship services, the "church" of the Bible is always the body of believers.

SpiritLedEd (SLE)

 

[ImmanuelWithUs]

I don't see how He is talking about anything but the Temple in Jerusalem. If we were the Temple, if we were His Father's House, there would still be animal sacrifice.

But, friend, all believers are the Temple of God now that His Holy Spirit dwells in us so we literally are His Temple. That's why I asked the question. And I don't read the Bible in "numbered soundbites", I study and read the Bible hours a day, book by book, but I appreciate your reply.

Thank you, SpiritLedEd. I appreciate your reply.

SpiritledEd, do you believe God's speaking to all believers when He's speaking to Israel in Hosea (for instance)? Not that I think I'm Jewish now that I'm a believer, but I do believe the Lord is speaking to me as well as the Jews.

Pastor John Piper says (for instance, when speaking of Hosea) that when the Lord speaks to Israel, that He's speaking to all believers as well because He loves us all equally. Do you agree? Just like when God says something to one prophet or believer, His words are meant for all believers, Jewish and non-Jews.

 

[JonathanAB]

Has it not been said that our bodies are temples?

Perhaps he is telling us to look after out physical health.

 

[natty threads]

Where does the bible say that we are the Temple of God?

Is the Ark of the Covenant going to spring forth from us in the endtimes? (Revelation 11:19)

No.

Are we God and Jesus?

No.

Revelation 21:22~

I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.


Yes, the church refers to the body of believers, not to a building. You cannot extract that the body of believers is the Temple, which refers to a building (or God and Jesus- but since Christ is represented as the rock in the desert from which Moses received water, and also is The Word of God, and Jesus is Torah/The Law, it is not a stretch for Jesus Himself to also be the Temple).

When God speaks of the Hebrews, Jews, Israelites in the Old Testament, that is to whom He is speaking. He addresses Gentiles separately and often, so there is absolutely no reason to believe that God doesn't know or cannot distinguish the difference, which is what people are doing when they read themselves into God's message to the Jews and they are not themselves Jews.

God knows the difference.
God states the difference.
To read it differently than God states it is disrespectful to God.

How can it not be?

Regarding Hosea-

The promise is to ISRAEL.
We are tacked onto the end of it-

Hosea 3:23~

...I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, and I will say to those who were not My people, "You are My people!" And they will say, "You are my God."

Have you read all of Hosea?
Why would you want to include yourself with Israel in this prophesy?

Do you include yourself with Judah or with Israel in Jeremiah's prophesy?

Isaiah ch 2 discusses Gentiles coming to God and the Hebrews falling away.
Isaiah 8:13, 14, 15 discuss God as a Sanctuary.
Isaiah 9 gives the promise of Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 9:1~
But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.

Isaiah 41 ends with God berating Israel for lack of faith and 42 starts with the promise of Jesus Christ coming to "bring forth justice to the nations." Isaiah 42:6 says that God will appoint Him "as a covenant to the people, as a light to the nations."

If we are to consider ourselves Israel God would not repeatedly address us separately.

In Isaiah 55 is an offer to the Gentiles to come to God. Isaiah 55:11ff is a reiteration of the promise that Jesus will accomplish what God desires- that we all turn to Him in worship and prasie. (John 1:1~ In the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God and The Word was God.)

Regard Isaiah 56:1-8~

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; WIDTH: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>1</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>2</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>3</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>4</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>5</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>6</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>7</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>8</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>






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There are very specific conditions for being included in this promise.
Are you fulfilling them?

LOOK AT VERSE 5.
You say "Pastor John Piper says (for instance, when speaking of Hosea) that when the Lord speaks to Israel, that He's speaking to all believers as well because He loves us all equally."
I say "Why not believe what God Himself says over Pastor John Piper?"


Look at the end of Isaiah, 66:14-24~ <TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; WIDTH: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>14</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>15</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>16</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>17</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>18</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>19</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>20</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>21</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>22</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>23</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>24</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Who are God's servants here?
And who are His enemies?

Is this the covenant of which you, personally, are a part?
Or are you a part of the covenant in which eating pork and working on the Sabbath is permitted?

Bless up!
Jennifer


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[ImmanuelWithUs]

I'm really not sure why you cannot believe that our bodies are the Temple because it's written in the Bible many times...here you go...

Where does the bible say that we are the Temple of God?

Is the Ark of the Covenant going to spring forth from us in the endtimes? (Revelation 11:19)

No.

Are we God and Jesus?

No.

Revelation 21:22~

I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.


Yes, the church refers to the body of believers, not to a building. You cannot extract that the body of believers is the Temple, which refers to a building (or God and Jesus- but since Christ is represented as the rock in the desert from which Moses received water, and also is The Word of God, and Jesus is Torah/The Law, it is not a stretch for Jesus Himself to also be the Temple).

St. Paul asked in 1 Corinthians 3:16: “Don’t you know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” and “Don’t you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God?” In 2 Corinthians he comes right out and says it plainly: “We are a temple of the living God; even as God said, ‘I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.’” And Paul was an apostle to Gentiles, so God, through Paul, was absolutely speaking to non-Jewish people here.

That's but a few examples of believers bodies being the Temple of God on earth now that we have His Holy Spirit.

Also if God isin't speaking to all believers, ultimately, when He's speaking to Israel, then you must believe that the Psalms (for example) are not written for us Gentiles as well being that it's the songbook of Israel. So, in your mind, nothing in the book of Psalms applies to us non-Jewish believers. Do you believe that way?

I don't believe you understand what I mean when I say the Lord is speaking to all of us ultimately when He's speaking to Israel. I don't mean that I think I am now a Jew but I can assure you that I do have ALL His blessings that He has stored up for the Jews. The Bible says there's neither Greek nor Jew...etc.

And yes, as I said, I read and study books of the Bible constantly, so yes, I have read all of Hosea many, many times.

Thanks for your replies. Now I'd love to read others' opinions on my questions. Thanks.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Yes, the church refers to the body of believers, not to a building. You cannot extract that the body of believers is the Temple, which refers to a building

Referring to the body of believers as God's temple and individual believers as His temples is very Biblical (see 1 Cor 3: 16, 1 Cor 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, Eph 2:20-22, 1 Pet 2:5). The reference is metaphorical, not literal.

There are many examples of use of metaphor and hyperbole in Scripture.

SLE

 

[Chad]

Nattythreads, you need to carefully study Scripture and pray for Holy Spirit's guidance. If you even attempt to interpret Scripture your way without the Spirit's guidance, you will misinterpret the Word miserably wrong.

I recommend an actual Study Bible and concordance.

The Scripture and explanations SLE and ImmanuelWithUs gave you are accurate.

 

[ImmanuelWithUs]

I asked the Lord to guide me to scripture concerning Israel and Hosea like I was asking, and He led me to this today (written by Pastor John Piper):

"The reason God could expect that of Hosea is that he aims to do just that with his wayward Israel, and he had shown this to Hosea in 2:14–23. Recall from other messages the principle that guides me in my interpretation of passages like this. It looks beyond the Assyrian captivity to a literal fulfillment for ethnic Israel some day. But the fulfillment will also include us who are children of Abraham by faith (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 29). When Christians read Hosea 2:14–23, they should say, "Those are promises for me; that is God's will for me." This principle is confirmed here by the fact that Paul, in Romans 9:24, and Peter, in 1 Peter 2:10, apply Hosea 2:23 to the church. So this is a word of God for us today."

So the Lord answered my question (as usual and as always)! :shade: Holy Spirit convicted me last night saying, in essence, "Nikki, you run to pastors and preachers and online sermons and message boards and do not run to the Master Himself for answers to your questions." I looove the Holy Spirit and when He convicts me and answers me.

Thank you all for helping me with this. We will never be disappointed when we go to Him!

 

[natty threads]

Nattythreads, you need to carefully study Scripture and pray for Holy Spirit's guidance. If you even attempt to interpret Scripture your way without the Spirit's guidance, you will misinterpret the Word miserably wrong.

I recommend an actual Study Bible and concordance.

The Scripture and explanations SLE and ImmanuelWithUs gave you are accurate.

I do Chad.

If yopu wish to equate yourself with Israel in any of the prophets you must equate yourself with Israel in ALL of the prophets, No?

Why would you want to equate yourself with Israel in Hosea and not with the promise to the Gentiles?

Are you not a Gentile?
DOH!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Are you not a Gentile?
DOH!

Natty Threads, I want to remind you of the forum rule against insulting other members. Please read the Forum Rules and follow them.

SLE