Question about eternal separation from God

[seekermeister]

evangeline,

I believe your thoughts are truly your own and not backed up by scripture.

While there was a portion of my original statement in this thread that was, by my own admission, a matter of my personal beliefs, most of what followed is not. I can back up every word directly from the Bible. However, I'm not going to start a game of tossing verses back and forth. It should be clear to everyone here, that there are two resurrections, and that those of the first have God's blessing. The second faces a judgment that none of us want.

I never said that anyone could be saved by following the Golden Rule, only a belief and acceptance in Jesus can do that. What I said was that a person that did live in accordance with that law would be given the opportunity to make that decision.

The millenial reign obviously last 1000 years, there would by no reason that that much time, if it were only for the purpose of weeding and harvesting those who survived the tribulation. The number of people that will be involved, will be from every time era since the Earth began, and they will be from every nation, kindred and tongue. If you insist, I will provide verses, but that really shouldn't be necessary.

 

[seekermeister]

[F]Hello

In regards to all non-believers going to hell, I like to explain it to my girls like this.

Say you go to Singapore at spit on the ground. Not knowing it was against the law, they whip you with the cane 6 times.

Just because you didn't know it was against the law, it doesn't mean you wouldn't get punished. It's the law of the land.

So, in the same way, even if some people don't know God's laws, there is punishment in the end because it's the law of the land. Actually, it's God's law which is greater.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think God's Holy Spirit gives us the knowledge to know the difference between right and wrong. Even before i was Christian, I knew it was wrong to fornicate... NOT EVEN KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT GOD. With that said, all non-believers still have a conscience but some still continue to do wrong and break the laws of the land.

Just a thought [/FONT]

You are correct to say that the laws are valid, regardless of a person's knowledge of them, but the punishment for breaking them are brought on during their life on Earth.

The Bible tells us that if we keep the Golden Rule, that we would automatically, by our own nature, keep the rest of the laws also, even if we never heard of them. The bulk of the laws are for our own benefit and blessings. If we deny the law within our own hearts, we bring problems not only on others, but ourselves also. If a person breaks a law in a moment of weakness, he can be forgiven, but if he rejects the law and chooses his own, he will not be forgiven, so long as he does not repent.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

rjjones: I like Baruch's Aug 9th response, but I would also like to add another citation from Romans and one from Hebrews:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Ro 1:18-20)

While people may die without ever hearing of Jesus Christ, they have no excuse for failure to diligently seek after spiritual truth since the very existence of creation testifies to God's existence and power.

"Whoever would find God must first believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him diligently." (Heb 11:6)

SLE

 

[evangeline]

Christ's Millenial reign on earth

Hi seekermeister,

I think we have a different understanding of Jesus reign on earth.

From what I understand, this time will be an era of true peace, prosperity and justice, free from demonic interference. (Is 2:2-5; 9:6-7; 32:1-4; 33:20-22; ch35; 49:6; Jer 23:5-6; Dan 2:44; Mic ch4; Zech ch8; 14:9; Mt 13:41; Rev 20:4-6)
Jesus will rule (shepherd) from Jerusalem, the capital of the world, with a sceptre (staff) of iron. and we (the believers who have previously died or been raptured) will reign with Him. (Dan 7:27a; 2 Tim 2:12a; Rev 2:26; 5:9-10; 20:4,6)
A river of living water will flow from the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. (Eze 47:1-12; Joel 3:18b; Zech 14:8; cf Rev 22:1-2)
People will have good health and live long lives; their bodies will be free from deformities and disabilities and there will be no mental illnesses.(Is 35:5-6a)
Animals will have gentle natures, and plants and crops will flourish. (Is 11:6-9; Amos 9:13-15)
The Feast of Tabernacles will be celebrated annually throughout this period. (Zech 14:16 cf Lev 23:33-44)
As I mentioned before, the earth will be populated by those who have survived the tribulation, some (many) will still be unrepentant sinners.

When this 1000 years finishes (Rev 20), the era of the New Heaven and New Earth begins. (Rev 21)

I'm also genuinely interested to know why you think that people who keep the Golden Rule get a second chance to accept Jesus in heaven.


evangeline

 

[seekermeister]

evangeline,

Your summary of the millenial reign appears to be accurate, except in one aspect. There is a verse, which I can't remember the location of, where that it says that in Heaven, that there will be no marriage between a man and a woman. This would imply that there will be no children born. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that this will also apply to the millenial era also. If that is true, then the way that you are looking at it, it would mean that the citizens of this kingdom would have finite lifespans of only a thousand years, but we know that those who have been saved and are a part of the body of Christ are immortal, with an infinite lifespan, and I believe that this applies to all, whether they had been saved or not. Why do you feel that the Lord would allow a disobedient unsaved person to remain in His kingdom for a thousand years before assigning their fate? Since there is an unsaved element throughout that era, I can only understand it if that is due to the fact that this is sustained by a far greater number of people being involved than merely the survivors of the tribulation. If there are no births, then they must come from the resurrection. In other words, the first resurrection contains more than those who had already given their lives to the Lord. This could only be explained if those extra people were those that I described.

Before you bother to state that this is not specifically written in the Bible, let me point out that it is clearly stated that not even all of the words and actions of the Lord were written within it in the first place, and I believe that Jesus did not state every possible truth in the first place. Therefore, the question is whether what I have said is in conflict with what He did say? If so, show me where. If not, then what I believe shall stand until the Lord shows me otherwise.

 

[baruch]

You are correct to say that the laws are valid, regardless of a person's knowledge of them, but the punishment for breaking them are brought on during their life on Earth.

The Bible tells us that if we keep the Golden Rule, that we would automatically, by our own nature, keep the rest of the laws also, even if we never heard of them. The bulk of the laws are for our own benefit and blessings. If we deny the law within our own hearts, we bring problems not only on others, but ourselves also. If a person breaks a law in a moment of weakness, he can be forgiven, but if he rejects the law and chooses his own, he will not be forgiven, so long as he does not repent.

Seeker, where can I find this "Golden Rule!"?
I thought I was saved by faith, through grace etc!

 

[rjones]

Thank you all for your input. It has shed some light on this for me. I'm so glad to have accepted Jesus as my savior and I don't have to wonder about my eternal home. May God bless you all from the riches of His glory through Christ Jesus our redeemer.

 

[Janette]

Uhhhh...

God is merciful. The simple truth is that you have to look *awfully* hard to find someone who has truly had no knowledge of or access to the Word of God. There are probably some innocent North Koreans who haven't had access. There might be a few very isolated tribes of bush people in the forests of Brazil or somewhere that haven't heard anything.

Revelations clearly teaches us that these people will have their chance to accept our Lord either during the Great Tribulation, or the 1000 years of peace. Given the incredible mercy of the Lord, it also wouldn't surprise me if some of those dear souls who would have accepted Him had they but had the opportunity to hear His name might be caught up in the first rapture. Surely if Jesus may Save men like Saul of Tarsus, who heard of Him and persecuted His people, then Jesus may Save someone who has never heard of Him but who lives on instinct and faith, according to His teachings.

As for the nature of Hell...Satan chose to rebel against God. There is nothing in Scripture that tells us that he knew for sure he'd end up paying for it in Hellfire.

The Bible is pretty clear that Satan isn't in Hell yet. He's wandering around making trouble here on Earth. He was wandering around on Earth clear back in the book of Job, and he was still wandering around on Earth when he came to the garden to try to tempt our Lord. He's probably sitting in some brothal right now enjoying all of the pleasures of the flesh for which he forsook his station among the Angels.

He doesn't get his one-way ticket to the lake of fire until the latter chapters of Revelations, as Chad already posted.

Having said that, what makes you think Satan, who is *not* omnipotent has any better idea what Hell is going to be like than we do. We're talking about the founder of arrogance and pride -- do you think he believes he's going to *lose*?

I'm sure he knows all the prophecies of Isaiah, Daniel, Revelations, and so on...but do you think he *believes* them?

Or do you think perhaps that much like his misguided followers, he's going to keep right on doing what *he* thinks is right, nevermind what God has to say about it, until that rather startling moment when he gets his rump kicked.

What difference does it really make what Hell is like. Maybe it's lovely. Maybe I could go there and have riches and great food and wine and fornication and just party all the time.

Revelations teaches us that Hell, whatever it is, will be cast into the lake of fire. Death and everyone whose name is not in the Book of Life go there too. So even if Hell is the ultimate party vacation spot now...eventually it's going to be horrible in a big bad huge way.

I know its hard to accept that a merciful God would send someone to a place of "eternal" torment. But we have to keep in mind the nearly insane efforts God goes to in order to get us to *choose* to be virtuous.

He gives us our existence and the free will to mess it up as much as we please no matter how much our actions might disappoint Him.

He gives us His Word so that we may understand sin from righteousness and *still* lets us choose sin for the duration of our lives.

He forgives *all* our sins. The murder, the child molestation, the theft, the homosexuality, the adultery, the violence....all wiped clean.

He leaves that forgiveness open through Grace so that even after we accept Him we have a way out if we fall for a time back into our sinful ways.

He lets *us*, his puny creations, murder Him! What Satan tried and failed to do, we humans are allowed to do...and not only are we allowed to do it -- by doing it we put into action the very plan that redeems us of our sin!

He gives us the promise of the Great Tribulation -- so that all of the cynics and all the secular humanists, and all of the relatively moral yet still Godless people who just cannot manage to accept Christ on faith have one last way out. Who will be able to look at the world in the supernatural grip of the events described for the Great Tribulation and still not believe?

He even gives those last few crazy stubborn people, the ones who just can't wrap their minds around God, a way out according to the morality of their works.

---

Don't try to make the final resting place of the stubborn godless any less horrible than it is. Rather, wonder at he mercy of a God who would do *all* of these things in a desperate attempt to reach such people.

It's a lake. Of fire.

 

[evangeline]

evangeline,

Your summary of the millenial reign appears to be accurate, except in one aspect. There is a verse, which I can't remember the location of, where that it says that in Heaven, that there will be no marriage between a man and a woman. This would imply that there will be no children born. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that this will also apply to the millenial era also. If that is true, then the way that you are looking at it, it would mean that the citizens of this kingdom would have finite lifespans of only a thousand years, but we know that those who have been saved and are a part of the body of Christ are immortal, with an infinite lifespan, and I believe that this applies to all, whether they had been saved or not. Why do you feel that the Lord would allow a disobedient unsaved person to remain in His kingdom for a thousand years before assigning their fate? Since there is an unsaved element throughout that era, I can only understand it if that is due to the fact that this is sustained by a far greater number of people being involved than merely the survivors of the tribulation. If there are no births, then they must come from the resurrection. In other words, the first resurrection contains more than those who had already given their lives to the Lord. This could only be explained if those extra people were those that I described.

Hi seekermeister, you seem to still be equating heaven with the millenial reign on earth...they are not the same, they are quite separate.
You are quite correct in saying that there will be no marriage in heaven, but we are not talking about heaven here, we're talking about Christ's earthly reign. (Matthew 22:30)

Why would God allow disobedient people to remain in His kingdom?...for the same reason that he allows them on his earth now...so that hopefully they take the opportunity to repent before it's too late

THE GOLDEN RULE:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Therefore whatever you want others to do for you, do so for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7:12

I hope this helps.


evangeline