Question about eternal separation from God

[rjones]

Hey brothers and sisters in Christ. I speak blessings over you and the peace of God. A dear friend of mine and I were having a discussion the other day on the following question. Are those that have never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and have never had the opportunity to repent eternally seperated from God when they die? Where is the answer found in the bible?

 

[baruch]

Romans ch2: 12-16
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


Think this may be of help Rjones

 

[seekermeister]

Rather than a specific verse, I will offer some thoughts. We know that the Bible tells us that Jesus is on only path to God and the only redemption for our sins. However, there is no verse that says that anyone must find Jesus prior to their death. The Bible also makes it clear that everyone shall bend their knees and confess their sins to God. Considering just how evil some people have been on this Earth, it would be very difficult to understand why they would do that, unless that they also considered their situation and fate a blessing. I do not believe that God will force anyone to kowtow to him. Putting these thoughts together, I believe that some people who have never heard of Jesus, but lived by the Golden Rule, shall have the oppotunity to accept Jesus during the era of the Kingdom of Heaven, where Jesus shall rule with a rod of iron, here on Earth for a thousand years. If only the saved were present, then He would need no rod of iron to rule. I also believe, contrary to what some do, that hell is not exactly what we picture via things such as Dante's Inferno. Even the unsaved are immortal, at least in the physical sense and God will not take that from them, He shall only divide them permanently from His own. This will appear to be a blessing at first, because they will believe that they have been given everything that they ever wanted, but living without God, they will creat their own torment, and since they cannot perish, there shall be no escape.

 

[baruch]

Rather than a specific verse, I will offer some thoughts. We know that the Bible tells us that Jesus is on only path to God and the only redemption for our sins. However, there is no verse that says that anyone must find Jesus prior to their death. The Bible also makes it clear that everyone shall bend their knees and confess their sins to God. Considering just how evil some people have been on this Earth, it would be very difficult to understand why they would do that, unless that they also considered their situation and fate a blessing. I do not believe that God will force anyone to kowtow to him. Putting these thoughts together, I believe that some people who have never heard of Jesus, but lived by the Golden Rule, shall have the oppotunity to accept Jesus during the era of the Kingdom of Heaven, where Jesus shall rule with a rod of iron, here on Earth for a thousand years. If only the saved were present, then He would need no rod of iron to rule. I also believe, contrary to what some do, that hell is not exactly what we picture via things such as Dante's Inferno. Even the unsaved are immortal, at least in the physical sense and God will not take that from them, He shall only divide them permanently from His own. This will appear to be a blessing at first, because they will believe that they have been given everything that they ever wanted, but living without God,
they will creat their own torment, and since they cannot perish, there shall be no escape.

How do you interpret this then, Seeker.Revelation ch20:13-15

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

seems to me that there is a hell!

 

[seekermeister]

How do you interpret this then, Seeker.Revelation ch20:13-15

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

seems to me that there is a hell!

I never said that there is no hell, only that it is not as typically pictured. First off, in most instances in the Scriptures, hell only means the grave, the definition of sheol. Since death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, then this lake and hell are not synonomous. In many places throughout the Bible, large bodies of water (lake, sea, etc.), are used symbolically to represent a large number of people. The fire portion of the term would certainly indicate a very undesirable place to be. Nothing that I have said should entice anyone to want to go there. If this is not what you had in mind, then please clarify.

 

[baruch]

I never said that there is no hell, only that it is not as typically pictured. First off, in most instances in the Scriptures, hell only means the grave, the definition of sheol. Since death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, then this lake and hell are not synonomous. In many places throughout the Bible, large bodies of water (lake, sea, etc.), are used symbolically to represent a large number of people. The fire portion of the term would certainly indicate a very undesirable place to be. Nothing that I have said should entice anyone to want to go there. If this is not what you had in mind, then please clarify.

Matthew ch18:8-9

8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Jesus is plainly teaching here of a fiery hell.
Sheol means a pit or grave, and is translated into greek as hades.

 

[seekermeister]

Matthew ch18:8-9

8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Jesus is plainly teaching here of a fiery hell.
Sheol means a pit or grave, and is translated into greek as hades.

We are into an area that I see no point in comparing verses on, because this verse, nor any other, plainly makes it clear that hell is a place of actual flames. Fiery can mean many things. I'm sure that you have heard many people say that life here on this earth is hell, because of the woes and misfortunes that often occur, but consider what the Earth would be like, if it were totally devoid of God's presence, and people were incapable of dying. There would be nothing to cause evil to cease or even abate. In fact, it would only grow and cause misery for all. In my mind, that would be a fiery hell.

 

[baruch]

We are into an area that I see no point in comparing verses on, because this verse, nor any other, plainly makes it clear that hell is a place of actual flames. Fiery can mean many things. I sure that you have heard many people say that life here on this earth is hell, because of the woes and misfortunes that often occur, but consider what the Earth would be like, if it were totally devoid of God's presence, and people were incapable of dying. There would be nothing to cause evil to cease or even abate. In fact, it would only grow and cause misery for all. In my mind, that would be a fiery hell.

I believe what Jesus teaches, rather than what man says.
Jesus plainly teaches an eternal fiery hell.

 

[seekermeister]

I believe what Jesus teaches, rather than what man says.
Jesus plainly teaches an eternal fiery hell.

When you demonstrate that what I have said contradicts God, Jesus, the apostles or the Bible, then I will agree with you, and will apologetically retract everything that I said, but up to this point, you have not.

If you insist on hell being a place of actual flames, then please explain why that the Bible says that every person shall kneel before God and confess their sins, if they already know what is in store for them. Are they acting totally out of fear? Is God simply forcing them to do so?

We know that Satan chose hell out of his own free will, when he certainly knew what God and Heaven was all about. Do you think that he simply preferred roasting in the flames?

When you can make some sense out of these things to me, then I shall agree with your translation of the Bible, but until then, don't simply tell me that your version is what Jesus was saying and leave it at that. If every word in the Bible were only to be taken in the literal sense, then there would be little room for people to understand it differently. That does not mean that any word or portion of the Bible is not literally true, it merely means that our understanding of it is not perfect.

If you care to convince me otherwise, then teach me in a fashion that demonstrates an understanding that surpasses being able to quote.

 

[Chad]

1. Revelation 19:20
   Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
   Revelation 19:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)
2. Revelation 20:10
   The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
   Revelation 20:9-11 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
3. Revelation 20:14
   Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
   Revelation 20:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
4. Revelation 20:15
   And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
   Revelation 20:14-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
5. Revelation 21:8
   But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Anyone who does not receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ends up in hell. Scripture says so.

 

[seekermeister]

Anyone who does not receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior ends up in hell. Scripture says so.

In no fashion have I said otherwise, except to say that hell and the lake of fire are not the same. The verses that you have quoted mention the lake of fire, but with the exception of the term hades, in Revelations 20:14, hell is not mentioned once.

Why do I get the feeling that you and Baruch feel that I'm saying something that I'm not?

 

[Chad]

Perhaps you will explain to us the Scriptural difference between hell, hades, and lake of fire.

I'm listening.

 

[Chad]

Definitions:

Hell

derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:

(1.) Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning "to ask," "demand;" hence insatiableness (Prov. 30:15, 16). It is rendered "grave" thirty-one times (Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Sam. 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule.

In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered "hell," the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are "the congregation of the dead" (Prov. 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17, etc.); (b) of the good (Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.).

Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21, 22), with bars (17:16). The dead "go down" to it (Num. 16:30, 33; Ezek. 31:15, 16, 17).

(2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1 Pet. 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 1:18), and it is downward (Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15).

The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise (Luke 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).

(3.) Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 16:24, etc.).

Hades

that which is out of sight, a Greek word used to denote the state or place of the dead. All the dead alike go into this place. To be buried, to go down to the grave, to descend into hades, are equivalent expressions. In the LXX. this word is the usual rendering of the Hebrew sheol, the common receptacle of the departed (Gen. 42:38; Ps. 139:8; Hos. 13:14; Isa. 14:9). This term is of comparatively rare occurrence in the Greek New Testament. Our Lord speaks of Capernaum as being "brought down to hell" (hades), i.e., simply to the lowest debasement, (Matt. 11:23). It is contemplated as a kind of kingdom which could never overturn the foundation of Christ's kingdom (16:18), i.e., Christ's church can never die.

In Luke 16:23 it is most distinctly associated with the doom and misery of the lost.

In Acts 2:27-31 Peter quotes the LXX. version of Ps. 16:8-11, plainly for the purpose of proving our Lord's resurrection from the dead. David was left in the place of the dead, and his body saw corruption. Not so with Christ. According to ancient prophecy (Ps. 30:3) he was recalled to life.

Explanation

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never-ending as the bliss of the righteous in Heaven. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10,11), and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). Jesus Himself indicates that the punishment in hell itself is everlasting - not merely the smoke and flames (Matthew 25:46).

 

[seekermeister]

Perhaps, it would be of some use to give the definitions of fire and brimstone, as found in Strong's Greek:

Fire - 4442 pur poor a primary word; "fire" (literally or figuratively, specially, lightning):--fiery, fire.

Brimstone - 2303 theion thi'-on probably neuter of 2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur:--brimstone. see GREEK for 2304

2304 theios thi'-os from 2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead. see GREEK for 2316

All that this proves is that the literal english words are not necessarily conveying exactly what the original meaning was.

 

[seekermeister]

I made my last post before seeing your's.

Perhaps you will explain to us the Scriptural difference between hell, hades, and lake of fire.

It should be clear, even from the references that you gave, that hell represents the grave, or the abode of the dead, where they are now, not where they shall be after their judgement...the lake of fire. Why are we going in circles about these terms? If the disagreement is about the nature of the lake of fire, then let's leave the term hell out of it.

 

[evangeline]

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 (See also Matthew 25:41

Hell, hades, the lake of fire, since the death and resurrection of Jesus, I believe that they are one and the same.

While there may have been a waiting place before Jesus defeat of sin, and while some terms were used metaphorically (figuratively) in a few other applications, I think it is fair to think of them all as the same place - the final horrendous abode of unrepentant sinners who do not know Jesus as their Savior and King.



evangeline

 

[seekermeister]

evangeline,

While hell was once the abode of all of the dead, it was divided by an abyss. The side on which Abraham stayed was referred to as the Bosom of Abraham. When Jesus visited there, he took all of those people to paradise, leaving only those across the abyss, where they remain now. They shall not leave there until the second resurrection, when they are judged. They are not simply sent back to where they had been, but on to the lake of fire. The only exception to this, is those who had lived according to God's law, but never knew Jesus. They shall not necessarily be condemned, if they accept Jesus within the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[evangeline]

Rather than a specific verse, I will offer some thoughts. We know that the Bible tells us that Jesus is on only path to God and the only redemption for our sins. However, there is no verse that says that anyone must find Jesus prior to their death. The Bible also makes it clear that everyone shall bend their knees and confess their sins to God. Considering just how evil some people have been on this Earth, it would be very difficult to understand why they would do that, unless that they also considered their situation and fate a blessing. I do not believe that God will force anyone to kowtow to him. Putting these thoughts together, I believe that some people who have never heard of Jesus, but lived by the Golden Rule, shall have the oppotunity to accept Jesus during the era of the Kingdom of Heaven, where Jesus shall rule with a rod of iron, here on Earth for a thousand years. If only the saved were present, then He would need no rod of iron to rule. I also believe, contrary to what some do, that hell is not exactly what we picture via things such as Dante's Inferno. Even the unsaved are immortal, at least in the physical sense and God will not take that from them, He shall only divide them permanently from His own. This will appear to be a blessing at first, because they will believe that they have been given everything that they ever wanted, but living without God, they will creat their own torment, and since they cannot perish, there shall be no escape.

Dear seekermeister,

I believe your thoughts are truly your own and not backed up by scripture.

Our eternal life begins now; the moment we put our faith in Jesus; on this side of physical death. Jesus came into THIS world to save us NOW and show us the way to God. (John 1:9-14 3:17; 3:36, etc) When we die we face judgement. (Hebrews 9:27)

Unrepentant sinners (those whose names are not written in the book of life) will be cast into hell; believers (whose names are recorded in the Book of Life) will be have their works and deeds judged and be rewarded accordingly. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15) God promises eternal rewards for His obedient and faithful stewards.

You are indeed correct when you say that:
At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those in heaven, and on earth and those under the earth; and that every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. (Philippians 2: 9-11) However your thoughts surrounding this event are purely speculative.

No doubt the devil and his followers are presently deluded, but one day they will fully realise the "aweful" truth, that Jesus is indeed Lord, and highly exalted. They will have no choice but to acknowledge that fact and bow to the true sovereign God!!! (Their feelings we can only guess at, but they may consist of resentment, jealousy, anger and hatred, perhaps even regret..who knows? But they will bow, not because of their present situation, but because Jesus is Lord.

Also I believe you are confusing the "kingdom of heaven" to Christ's millenial reign on earth. Those people who survive the tribulation will still be present on earth; these people will still have the opportunity to repent, because they haven't died yet.

No one has ever been saved by following the Golden Rule. If that were possible, Christ died for nothing.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as result of works. Ephesians 2:8-9a


evangeline

 

[trulyblezzed]

[F]Hello

In regards to all non-believers going to hell, I like to explain it to my girls like this.

Say you go to Singapore at spit on the ground. Not knowing it was against the law, they whip you with the cane 6 times.

Just because you didn't know it was against the law, it doesn't mean you wouldn't get punished. It's the law of the land.

So, in the same way, even if some people don't know God's laws, there is punishment in the end because it's the law of the land. Actually, it's God's law which is greater.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think God's Holy Spirit gives us the knowledge to know the difference between right and wrong. Even before i was Christian, I knew it was wrong to fornicate... NOT EVEN KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT GOD. With that said, all non-believers still have a conscience but some still continue to do wrong and break the laws of the land.

Just a thought [/FONT]

 

[evangeline]

The only exception to this, is those who had lived according to God's law, but never knew Jesus. They shall not necessarily be condemned, if they accept Jesus within the Kingdom of Heaven. They are not simply sent back to where they had been, but on to the lake of fire.

What scriptures back up these ideas?


evangeline