Problem with rapture

[chris meads]

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Does this not reveal that the wicked are taken out of the earth First?

 

[HoneyBare]

The verses you quote are talking about being cold or hot in your relationship to God. I'm not sure where you get where it is talking about the Rapture, but I am not an expert on Scripture. Someone clue me in.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Chris, are you saying that the rapture account (Mt 24: 36-41) is a parable? How can that be? That chapter of Matthew's gospel is totally devoted to last days prophecy.

Spirit Led Ed (SLE)

 

[Davy]

To Chris Meads, problem with rapture.

By the rapture, do you mean that Christians living at the end of the system of things are to be taken to heaven, recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord?"

This has often raised my eye brow, because if this is so, how is it the Bible also says in 1 Corinthians 15:50: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." So how can a physical body be raised up in to heaven? Like Jesus, does not the physical body have to die first before it can go to heaven, because, Romans 6:5, says: "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." ???

 

[chris meads]

The passage you quoted from matt 24 sounds more like the return of christ in the flesh rather than the departure of us in spirit.

 

[RJ]

To Chris Meads, problem with rapture.

By the rapture, do you mean that Christians living at the end of the system of things are to be taken to heaven, recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord?"

This has often raised my eye brow, because if this is so, how is it the Bible also says in 1 Corinthians 15:50: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." So how can a physical body be raised up in to heaven? Like Jesus, does not the physical body have to die first before it can go to heaven, because, Romans 6:5, says: "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." ???

Rapture does take place in this mortal body of ours, this body of flesh and blood but, it is one of the final and greatest of all of God's mysteries that will ouccur.

After resurrection, when Jesus came back and witnessed to the apostles and then many, in what state or form was He?

God said He is Spirit so was Jesus but He was also in human form of flesh and blood also. After His resurrection, Jesus was still Spirit but know He was also, the miracle of miracles, He was in His resurrected body.

When a Christian is raised from the dead, it will be in a resurrected body just like Jesus demonstrated to us.

When Jesus Christ returns, the dead will be raised first and given their promised heavenly body.

Then those who are ALIVE in Christ will be raised in the "twinkling of an eye". Those who experience this (Rapture) wil not experience death but, in a "blink of an eye", they will be transformed into their heavenly or "resurrected" body.

It is those alive, who are not in Christ, that will be left behind to suffer the trials of Tribulation!

 

[Quantum1982]

rapture

I agree with Joe Johnson. Until there is a time that I am convinced otherwise, this argument makes the most sense here. However, if what John is saying is true, then that shows just how wicked the last generation will be, that God will have to physically transport people out of the earth whilst they are alive, so that they can avoid the awfull horrors of the tribulation.

Although at the same time it also shows God's grace in that He is then giving Godless people an opportunity to repent for their sins, through sacrifice of their own life. This is to show their willingness to follow Jesus untill the end. You see a lot of people dramatize the end times, but until it actually happens we won't know the exact extent of the pain and suffering. Maybe when people get executed by the system at that time, it will be a quick, painless death ? Or still other might suffer a little bit more. Of course I am speculating, but a lot still needs to be discussed about the rapture and it's ramifications.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

This has often raised my eye brow, because if this is so, how is it the Bible also says in 1 Corinthians 15:50: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." So how can a physical body be raised up in to heaven? Like Jesus, does not the physical body have to die first before it can go to heaven, because, Romans 6:5, says: "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." ???

Davy: I suggest you take a study Bible and study 1 Cor 15:33-58. This, I believe will answer the above quoted questions. You lifted verse 50 in that chapter out of its context in what appears to be a hurried attempt to formulate an argument. Please do not write posts based on single verse citations without first learning the context in which the verse appears.

SLE

 

[akaspooky]

Tares are bundled, not taken out...

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Does this not reveal that the wicked are taken out of the earth First?

The Lord Jesus says that they are to be bundled, not taken out of the Earth. The bundling is necessary because of the apostasy -- and this bundling happens IN the Church. As we see in the letters to the Churches in Revelation, the apostasy that's spread by the tares is a gradual thing.

When Jezebel (queen of the tares) is finally thrown into a bed (of adultery) and her followers into great tribulation, we see the dead Sardis Church bundled... with only a few kept out, apparently. And then we see the Church of Brotherly Love (which is the wheat of your verse) kept from the trial -- since they have no need to be tried, having achieved the love that John so ardently prays for us in his three letters.

And we see those same followers of Jezebel in the Laodicean Church -- outside of which, Christ stands, knocking to be let into the building He bought with His Blood (How Sad This IS!). These are (some of) the ones who will go through the tribulation, and who are spoken to (I come as a thief) right before Armageddon.

It's interesting to note that, although the Church of Laodicea received a letter from Paul and Colosse is told to share it, we never get to read that letter. I'm guessing that they threw the letter away. History says that they were rich... needing eye-salve and robes washed in the blood of the Lamb? Lao means people... come out of her, my people?

 

[sojourn4Christ]

you WANT to be 'left behind'

Chris, are you saying that the rapture account (Mt 24: 36-41) is a parable?

Matthew 24:36-41 is not 'the rapture account.'

When Christ described the conditions precedent to His return as being similar to "the days of Noe [Noah]," (Luke 17:26) He made a clear-cut analogy to the conditions of the time of the great flood. The picture is one of the world hurtling towards an enormous devastation with the overwhelming majority of people completely unaware of the reckoning that is about to occur.


The Lord tells us how the people "...bought, they sold, they planted, they builded...they did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage....and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away...." (Luke 17:27, Matt 24:39)

Please note how the ones that were taken away were destroyed - not evacuated. Indeed, Luke's account reads "and the flood came, and destroyed them all." (Luke 17:27). Although I've actually heard lying preachers intentionally try to twist the Lord's words by saying 'the ark got taken away,' Jesus makes it perfectly clear that it was those that "knew not" that the flood was coming that were taken away. Obviously, Noah and his family knew the flood was coming, so those that were taken away and subsequently destroyed were those that were living life as usual - eating, drinking, and marrying, etc. Such activities infer a broad cross-section of society that has no idea they are in enormous peril - or they simply do not believe the peril they have been told about is genuine.

Thus, when Jesus described "two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left," (Luke 17:34) He was plainly describing a judgment that is so discriminating and focused that it kills only one of two people in the same bed. When "two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left," (Luke 17:35) the death that sweeps away the one that is taken will kill one and leave the other in close proximity unscathed.

As if to make certain the disciples understood the meaning of this incredible prophecy, in Luke's rendition, we read how the disciples said unto him, "Where, Lord?" (Luke 17:36). It is apparent they were asking Him where the ones that were taken had gone. His answer was "Wheresoever the body is, thither [there] will the eagles be gathered together." (Luke 17:37). In short, Christ responds that wherever there is a dead body, is where the eagles [read carrion, or vultures] will be "gathered together." In what has now become a colloquial expression, the LORD is simply saying 'if you want to know where a dead body is, look for the vultures.'

Furthermore, there is simply no other coherent explanation for this analogy. The fact is, if we reverse the application and try to make those that were taken away a rescue, the analogy is wildly inaccurate. This would show an errancy in the scriptural account - something we cannot accept as "the words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times" (Psalms 12:6). Along this same line of thought, I've learned that it is a spiritually deadly proposition to attempt to force the scriptures to conform to any interpretation. It's supposed to be the other way around. Thus, the analogy plainly tells us those that were "left behind" are the ones that were designated as worthy of survival.

It is worth noting at this juncture that it is because of the emotional and psychological process that begins when a rapture adherent reads material like this that I commonly refer to the rapture theology as a cult. To put it bluntly, these verses provide the 'smoking gun' evidence that the "left behind" teaching is a fraud - yet the majority of so called "Christians" value the truth so little, they will inevitably reject this most basic understanding because of their conditioning.

 

[spirit1st]

I could put up lots more scripture! But , this clearly shows we are with HIM and RETURN back here with HIM!

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

[Faith4Bride]

It is true, that those who are TAKEN- and those who are BUNDLEDUP to be burnt are done so FIRST. However I think that because of the wrong commonly taught, when we say the truth of the matter it gives other false ideas.

Those " taken' and "bundled" are thrown into the - Day of the Lord, the time of Gods wrath. That is a time period of wrath from God on the wicked who are on the earth. The time of the vials and battle of armegeddon.

That does not change that when they are thrown into the time of wrath- we are gathered into the barn, caught up to be with God both the dead in Christ rising first in the resurection of the dead, and then those who are alive and remain changed in a moment and caught up also. This is when we will all put on incorruption and recieve our reward.

THIS IS IMPORTANT because the time of wrath that happens after the tribulation is for the recompence of the saints and the wrath ont he wicked and it is the CHURCH that will RULE and reign with Christ over the world- and it is the CHURCH who will JUDGE the world in this wrath!

We need to be here in the tribulation for our obedience to be made FULL so that when the wicked are taken into the day of the Lord the time of wrath- we can be gathered unto Christ so that we can be given our rewards and avenge all disobedience on the earth.

At the end of the Day of the Lord- We return following the Lord to finish the judgement and destruction of the wicked. But we need to be here for tribulation so that we fully can be prepared to rule and reign and judge and world and angels and to avenge disobedience.

We need to be caught up and given our incorruption after the tribulation so that we can recieve our reward to rule and reign and avenge with Christ. These are things often totally overlooked and not taught or spoken about so it leaves a big gap in the purposes and will of God in these things.

 

[BSLaidlaw]

Hi, I would like to put my few cents worth in here:
I will admit that I am FAR from an expert, but what I have pieced together about this, and mind you this is ALL personal opinion, is that 1) we know that the "rapture" by name in NOT mentioned in the bible. yes it does mention that we shall be gathered together with Christ in the clouds, but it also says "and we who are alive and remain..." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)
<table style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 100%; font-size: 100%; font-family: sans-serif;" border="0"><tbody><tr><td class="t_verse" valign="top">16</td><td class="t_text" style="width: 100%;" valign="top">For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:</td></tr><tr><td class="t_verse" valign="top">17</td><td class="t_text" style="width: 100%;" valign="top">Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.</td></tr></tbody></table>meaning, that for some reason it's in not everyone... My belief on this is that the "rapture" is not something that will happen until AFTER the time of the tribulation.

A few reasons for my believing this: I does not make sense to me that all the Christians would disappear, leaving only those who haven't yet accepted Christ, because, if we are gone, who is there left to minister to them? I know that God can and will work in any situation, and we cannot even begin to comprehend him, but to me that doesn't make sense... God wants to give people EVERY chance to come to him, that is the entire reason for the time of tribulation, giving people chance after chance.

Secondly, because of the way PAUL words it in his writings in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 --"we who are alive and remain..." referring to a remnant... as in all that's left... <table style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 100%; font-size: 100%; font-family: sans-serif;" border="0"><tbody><tr><td class="t_verse" valign="top">16</td><td class="t_text" style="width: 100%;" valign="top">For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:</td></tr><tr><td class="t_verse" valign="top">17</td><td class="t_text" style="width: 100%;" valign="top">Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.</td></tr></tbody></table>
Anyway, this is my 2 cents worth. Again, I will say, I am far from a scholar on this subject...


Your Brother In Christ: Brad S. Laidlaw

 

[spirit1st]

6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The DEAD in Christ are with Him now! They go where He goes!
Those the are alive is here now!
Many are CALLED few chosen! Few are the elect! There will be many times more left here who were called but refused to accept the LORD as LORD!
These will preach the gospel and many if not all will then follow the LORD! It will be perfect clear to them !
Many , many will be Born -Again during the Great Tribulation!
I Know and Am Sure GODS Wrath Will never be toward His Elect !

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This Great tribulation will be by far the very worse time on earth! Nothing before could compare with it!

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[BSLaidlaw]

Spirit1st:

I am happy to be proved wrong, as I said, and I could well be. I haven't done much study in the area.
But I do know that there will be christians martyred for their faith, depending on the view, some think that ALL Christians will be sealed by GOD and be sparred HIS judgments. we could still be faced with the judgments of men. And it doesn't make sense to me that the christians, the believers would be whisked away leaving the un-believers to fend for themselves, and possibly come ti Christ on their own. who will be there to teach them?

Also: why should we fear going through the tribulation: Yes it is a natural human feeling, and it will be a FAR from pleasant time but we know what awaits us on the other side of the veil, so why is there need for fear?

God is Just-- He will work in the way that best suits his purpose, this I know beyond a doubt. And we cannot know what to expect. God moves in mysterious ways far beyond our comprehension.

Your Brother In Christ:

Brad S. Laidlaw

 

[spirit1st]

We are ALL growing in truth and the correct understanding! I too am growing. In fact the last week , He gave me two revelations !
It thrilled me to see these things more plainly and fully though scriptures.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

We do not take anyones word! We search the scriptures ourselves to see if its true!
Paul a far greater teacher than me, These brothers and sisters checked his words to see if it was correct !
And I thank GOD for you and pray our LORD blesses you with more truth and a greater understand and your household! In the mighty name of Our LORD JESUS CHRIST! thank You LORD!

 

[BSLaidlaw]

I agree that we are all leaning, and need to do our own study, coming to our own conclusions but meanwhile being open to advice, and opinion, but also being able to discern truth from myth, or misconception. That is what I am aiming for. I have applied to a bible college in hopes of going deeper and gaining insight into the person and word of God.

Thanks for your insights Spirit1st

Your Brother IN Christ: Brad S. Laidlaw

 

[Santa]

I agree with Spirit1st and BSLaidlaw, that there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Matthew 24:38-42 is the tradidional Rapture verses:
<SUP>38</SUP> For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-23993>39</SUP> and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-23994>40</SUP> Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-23995>41</SUP> Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-23996>42</SUP> Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour<SUP class=footnote sizset="37" sizcache="3" value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> your Lord is coming.

But now read verse 43:

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-23997>43</SUP> But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.

(So we need to be ready and not be deceived).

Also Luke 17: 34-37

Acts 14:22b “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 7:13-14

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30820>13</SUP> Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30821>14</SUP> And I said to him, “Sir,<SUP> </SUP>you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 20:4

[ The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years ] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Therefore I believe that righteous, who are still alive, will be gathered together and taken to heaven after the geat tribulation. Then in the 1000 years we will reign together with Jesus Christ, and judge the wicked.

Now, Satan will not rest. He is busy preparing to deceive the whole world, especially those that have had visions of heaven. He will 45 days before the actual "Rapture", create a false Rapture.

Manuel De Lacunza (a Jesuit) under the alias of 'Rabbi Ben Ezra' wrote a book. The title: 'The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty.' In that book he theorized that the church would be 'raptured' (taken up to be with the Lord) some 45 days before the real return of Jesus to the Earth.

Also look to the danger of HAARP.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rapture or not.........

Well, here we go... Rapture or no Rapture.........sigh...

The Word Rapture is in the Bible, the Latin Bible. The word in Greek is Harpazo which means snatched suddenly. same root we get Harpoon from. As in catching a fish.

As some think, we will not be left here to test us until the end. Jesus already bought and paid for our sins, there is nothing we can do to Antone for anything in ourselves. This is just silly thinking.

2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Another thing to remember is that we are protected, so Rapture or no Rapture, nothing to be concerned with. We are also not suppose to promote fear in others by telling them we are going to be "Left Behind" some are not strong in the word yet. Any promotion of fear only comes from the devil.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

common sense would tell you that with our Authority over Satan and being filled with the power of the Holy Ghost, leaving the Church Behind that has faith, and is full of the greater one in us then he that is in the World, would only mess the end times up.
NO, NO, NO...

The only reason things are not out of Whack now is because we are here with the full power of the Holy Ghost, we need to take a break and go away if Satan is going to get anything accomplished, even then, Satan fails Horribly.

anyway....... fear not........... it's not a issue.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Coright4Christ]

I agree with u Brother Mike. The matter of Tribulation should not concern those who are right with the Lord. As for who will lead the people of the Tribulation to Christ, i go to Rev. 14:1-5. The 144,000 Tribulation Saints (Jews) will be the ones preaching the word and bringing souls of the lost to Christ Jesus. They are the ones who will trial through the seven Trumpet judgments.
As for the Christians of this age i do not believe that will will be forced to suffer any of the judgments of Rev. 4-19