Predestined?

[Enxu]

I hate to contend but in regards to heresies I will defend the truth at all costs.

Another false teaching that keeps getting repeated, in plain denial of what the Gospel actually teaches: Christians go to heaven to be with the Lord the moment they physically die.

Yet 1 Thessalonians 4:16 writes so clearly:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Why are the dead in Christ risen again in future if they are already in heaven the very moment they died? Clearly they are not in heaven when they died but rather they are still in the graves until a future resurrection!

 

[Dave M]

Why are the dead in Christ risen again in future if they are already in heaven the very moment they died?

I think it is is expressing the glorified bodies that we receive, while in heaven they have not received the glorify body yet is my understanding

Another false teaching that keeps getting repeated, in plain denial of what the Gospel actually teaches: Christians go to heaven to be with the Lord the moment they physically die.

then what do you do with versus such as

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ...

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

then we have all those souls that are in heaven under the alter

Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.


and of course we have all the saints that appear before the thrown as well

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

just in case its not clear these are people who have died on earth and came to heaven scripture tells us

Revelation 7:14
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Dave M]

Jesus walked as a Man means He was only a Man, not a Man with a hidden divine nature somewhere

really how then do you explain him doing miracles??

how then do you explain the angels worshiping him at his birth, for the bible says only God can be worshiped.

Jesus was God in the flesh if you deny that you deny the gospel

 

[Enxu]

I think it is is expressing the glorified bodies that we receive, while in heaven they have not received the glorify body yet is my understanding

“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Corinthians 15:53

Paul wrote clearly that the resurrection is about putting on incorruption and immortality. Which means all born again believers are still mortal (flesh and ONLY flesh) before the resurrection event in future.

 

[Enxu]

really how then do you explain him doing miracles??

how then do you explain the angels worshiping him at his birth, for the bible says only God can be worshiped.

Jesus was God in the flesh if you deny that you deny the gospel

I didn’t deny that Jesus was God in the flesh. I fully confess that Jesus came in the flesh, which is why I am so fervent in defending that Jesus IS flesh and ONLY flesh when He became a Man. The heresy that Jesus still has divinity in His flesh in true fact denies that. God cannot be tempted and God has eternal life which means God cannot die - this is what Scriptures testify about God. If Jesus even have a morsel of divine nature in His flesh, if He was in fact God (divine) when He walked on earth, it means He cannot be tempted nor can He die. That is the heresy I am refuting.

 

[Butch5]

Look at Matthew 1:18 - 24 for context -- vs 21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." vs 22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet saying ,"vs 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated "God with us".

That is 'how is that'. That's what incarnate means.

OK, Are you saying that the Father is Jesus?

 

[Butch5]

The first thing that must be understood was that God was "in" Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Inside of the "man" Jesus God was reconciling the world unto himself. Jesus had a physical body, with a physical brain that had to learn just like we do, yet inside of his body, God lived. All Born again Christians have the same God living inside them.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

That God inside Jesus could never be tempted to do evil because God can not be tempted with evil as the scripture says in James. We know for sure Jesus was really tempted because of this verse.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If God can not be tempted with evil, then what part of Jesus was tempted?

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If Jesus was tempted just like we are then his temptations where only that which is "common to man" What do all men have in common with each other?
All men do not have God living in them, but all men have a "human" nature that is common to all men that can be tempted!

Jesus's human nature was tempted with evil, but the God part of Jesus could never be tempted.

I followed you until the very end. You said the God part of Jesus could never be tempted. In the beginning you said God was in Jesus. At the end you said the God part of Jesus. Was God in Jesus or part of Jesus?

 

[Enxu]

then what do you do with versus such as

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. ...

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

2 Conrithians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 does not say that believers will be in heaven immediately upon physical death. It is simply Paul’s expression of his own desire to depart from his body to be with the Lord in immortality which happens during the future resurrection as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13 again Paul writes that God WILL bring. The word WILL already signifies a future event, which means those dead in Christ have not yet risen to life like Jesus did. If they have not even risen to life as taught by 1 Thessalonians 4:16, they cannot be in heaven upon their physical death.

 

[Enxu]

then we have all those souls that are in heaven under the alter

Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.


and of course we have all the saints that appear before the thrown as well

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

just in case its not clear these are people who have died on earth and came to heaven scripture tells us

Revelation 7:14
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Paul said he wanted to be with the Lord, according to the verses you quoted. He also wrote clearly WHEN that will actually happen for ALL believers.

After verse 16 about the dead in Christ rising to life in the future, Paul wrote:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

Clearly Paul taught us that being with the Lord is a FUTURE event at the resurrection.

Revelation 6:9-11 did not mention heaven as the location of those souls, it only said those souls are under the altar of God. Is the earth a place under the altar of God? Yes. Is Hades and the graves a place under the altar of God? Yes also. In fact in Genesis when God convicted Cain about his murder of Abel, God told Cain:

“What have you done?” replied the LORD. “The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.” Genesis 4:10

Is Abel in heaven at the time his blood cried out to God? No! I believe the same applies to the souls of those who cry out to God under the altar in Rev 6:9-11. These souls are crying out to God from the ground just like the blood (soul) of Abel did. They are not in heaven just like Abel was not.

I believe in Rev 7 (both verses 9 and 14) the future resurrection talked about in 1 Thessalonians 14:6 has already happened. But this part I admit I am not fully sure.

The Scriptures cannot contradict itself. The heresy that Jesus has divine nature hidden in His flesh as a Man contradicts Scriptures that say He was both tempted and died. If He had divinity in Him as Man He can neither be tempted nor die. This heresy is a variation of the gnostic heresy that falsely claims Jesus did not come in the flesh but only appeared as flesh when He was actually a spirit. Such a spirit is the spirit of antichrist according to apostle John.

 

[Butch5]

The answer is simple, before Jesus became Man, He was deity because He was the Word and the Word was God. (John 1:1) But when He became Man He was fully flesh and only flesh. There are no Scriptures to say He still retained His deity while walking on earth. John 1:1 clearly said the Word (Jesus) WAS God, which means when He became flesh He gave up His deity. If not He could not be tempted.

Hi Enxu,

What I believe is very similar to what you've said here.

 

[Butch5]

I believe He gave up His nature. The Greek word Theos is a title Like president or king. I don't think He gave that up. What I believe Paul is telling us is that Jesus gave up His nature. Paul said,

5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,
7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,
8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,
(Phil. 2:5-8 YLT)

Here Paul said that Jesus was in the form of God and emptied Himself taking the form of man. I believe this shows plainly that the Hypostatic Union or Two Natures doctrine isn't right. Jesus was in the nature or form of God, but He emptied Himself and took on the form of man. He was a man, 100% man.

On a side note He is still 100% man. John said,

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

The word translated "come" in this verse is in the Greek perfect tense. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose result continues to the present. So John's statement indicates that Jesus was still in the flesh when John wrote that.

When you think about that your jaw should hit the floor in appreciation for what Christ did. He was in the form of God. He had the abilities of the Father. He gave all of that up to become a man and remain a man forever and to die for others. I don't know about you, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around that kind of love.

So, yes, Jesus could be tempted by all things as we are.

 

[Dave M]

Jesus IS flesh and ONLY flesh when He became a Man

not sure I understand so you are saying Jesus can not be both man and God at the same time correct? another way is Jesus was not deity is this what your saying??

 

[Butch5]

really how then do you explain him doing miracles??

how then do you explain the angels worshiping him at his birth, for the bible says only God can be worshiped.

Jesus was God in the flesh if you deny that you deny the gospel

God the Father did the miracles.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (Jn. 14:10 KJV)

Jesus said He could do nothing of Himself.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Jn. 5:19 KJV)

He said He had the power to do nothing. It was the Father who was doing the works through Jesus.

 

[Dave M]

God the Father did the miracles.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (Jn. 14:10 KJV)

Jesus said He could do nothing of Himself.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Jn. 5:19 KJV)

He said He had the power to do nothing. It was the Father who was doing the works through Jesus.

are you denying the deity of Jesus??

 

[Enxu]

not sure I understand so you are saying Jesus can not be both man and God at the same time correct? another way is Jesus was not deity is this what your saying??

During His 30+ years as a Man yes, He cannot be both God and man. Or else all His apostles lied about Him when they preached Him, calling Him only as a Man in Acts 2:22 and 1 Timothy 2:5.

But before Jesus came in the flesh, He was indeed divine being Himself the Word of God and the great I Am. He gave up that divinity to come in the flesh and ONLY as flesh when He was in the nature of a Man.

 

[Enxu]

are you denying the deity of Jesus??

The deity of Jesus only rang true before He became a man. At that time He was simply called I AM and the Word of God. John 1 clearly said the Word WAS God (divine) which means by the time John wrote John 1 the Word was no longer divine. Why? Because the Word became flesh!

 

[Curtis]

I followed you until the very end. You said the God part of Jesus could never be tempted. In the beginning you said God was in Jesus. At the end you said the God part of Jesus. Was God in Jesus or part of Jesus?

If God is a Spirit then how would God give unto us his Son? Isa tells us, "unto us a child is born..." The child that was born would be the way in which the Son would be given.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus fully understood this as he said in the book of Hebrews....

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The body that was prepared for the giving of God's Son was the "child that was born"

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Going all the way back to Abraham in which God promised his "seed" would be more numerous than the stars, or on the sand sea.

Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

Who is the seed of Abraham that would be more numerous than the stars in the sky?

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Jesus's body (the child that was born) was the "temple" in which the Son of God lived.

My body will one day die, but I (the spiritual man) inside will never die.
.

 

[Dave M]

Titus 2:13

13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Jesus is God in the flesh full deity yet also man,

 

[Enxu]

Titus 2:13

13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Which is why I said it was ONLY during the 30+ years as a Man when He cannot be both God as well as Man. Titus 2:3 is talking about the future appearing of Jesus, already not as a Man but in His resurrected state.

Jesus is God in the flesh because the Spirit of God the Father was in Him when He walked as a Man! Before Jesus came the Spirit of God never once dwelt in flesh! If the Scriptures said Jesus was a Man when He walked the earth it means He was just a Man during those 30+ years nothing extra!
Why do people like to add what is not in the Scriptures onto it??

 

[Curtis]

The deity of Jesus only rang true before He became a man. At that time He was simply called I AM and the Word of God. John 1 clearly said the Word WAS God (divine) which means by the time John wrote John 1 the Word was no longer divine. Why? Because the Word became flesh!

The Jews had no problem understanding who Jesus was, but they could not understand how could a "man" claim to be God?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.