Predestination

[rojoloco]

Rojo,

You really don't understand the cross of Christ. Salvation is not of works, but what Jesus did at the cross. I have in no way contradicted myself. This is just going to go around and around and no point in trying to defend my view of Scripture as I have explained it. Also I am not a Arminian, I am not a Calvinist, but I am a Christian.

DJ

You may not claim an Arminian title but so far, you have held dearly to 4 of the 5 points of Arminianism. I have no idea where you stand on perseverance of the saints but so far, you are a dead ringer for an Arminian simply because of what it is you defend. To be an Arminian or to be a Calvinist does not negate one from being a Christian. It simply shows where your theological thoughts reside.

As for an understanding of the cross, you say it isn't finished whereas I say it is. You say Christ's atonement is not a substitutionary act that has already taken place whereas I say it is. You say the death of Christ was meant for all and is necessarily in vain countless times over (for each person not saved) whereas I say it is 100% effective, has never failed in its mission, and never will fail in its cause.

While these may not be black and white statements of yours, you are compelled to admit these accusations based on the defense you have given and the statements you have made.

Mind you, I'm not trying to be vicious or harsh. I simply stand firm in the doctrines of grace and proclaim them far and wide while unwavering. It can appear to be harsh at times but there is no greater love than the truth of grace.

 

[TheDJ]

rojo,

OK thanks, I see your point. However I never once said the cross of Christ was not finished as you mentioned above, I have clearly stated that it is a finished work as Jesus died on the cross His last words are "It is finished."

 

[rojoloco]

rojo,

OK thanks, I see your point. However I never once said the cross of Christ was not finished as you mentioned above, I have clearly stated that it is a finished work as Jesus died on the cross His last words are "It is finished."

Since you adamantly state that it is a finished work, why do you insist in some open-ended, inconclusive, conditional, semi-one-step-from-finished aspect to it? Either it is complete in all its predestined glory or it is incomplete, inconclusive, and still awaiting finalization pending the choice of man. It simply can't be both.

 

[RJ]

Since you adamantly state that it is a finished work, why do you insist in some open-ended, inconclusive, conditional, semi-one-step-from-finished aspect to it? Either it is complete in all its predestined glory or it is incomplete, inconclusive, and still awaiting finalization pending the choice of man. It simply can't be both.

I am sure that DJ is fully capable of answering you and, I apologize, if I am stepping out of bounds here:

Loco: The "Finality of The Cross" is exactly what it means, THE CROSS. It's finished, Jesus died for the sins of the world! It has nothing to do with salvation, the resurrection hasn't happened when Jesus told God, "It is finished".

Jesus died for EVERYONE, his resurrection and eternal life are only for those who believe! Orthodox Jews believe that Jesus died on the cross, that is historical fact! But, they don't believe in his resurrection and that he gives eternal life! They are not saved!

The Cross forgives and is a requirement for salvation but, it alone, does not save!
The Resurrection gives eternal life and salvation.

 

[TheDJ]

RJ - no problem, thanks for your response.

rojo - I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say about the Cross of Christ. When Jesus died on the Cross and said "It is finished," Christ defeated every single sin, Satan, and after his resurrection death. This also shows He completed His Father's will and every single prophecy concerning the Messiah was completed. That is why before He gave up His spirit He said "I am thirsty" so that they would offer Him sour wine. He had to do that as that was the only prophecy left to be completed of the Messiah. After that He said "It is finished."

Remember what John the Baptist said "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29) Jesus did exactly that on the Cross. Every single sin has now been paid, past, present, and future.

This had to be done in order for us to receive salvation through Jesus Christ. There is nothing you or I can never contribute to our salvation in any way shape or form. God set a plan in motion the moment Adam sinned and fell, and was carried out through the Cross.

The Apostle Paul said "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1.)

Now I know this is where you say there is a contradiction. I say Christ paid for everyone's sin so that must mean everyone is saved, however that is not what Scripture teaches. Scripture clearly teaches that those who do not accept Christ are not redeemed.

We go by what God shows us and teaches us in the Scriptures. Jesus went to the Cross to pay the penalty for all of our sins and if we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ we have forgiveness of those sins and eternal life. If we decide not to put our faith in Jesus Christ, we will die with our sins for not accepting the gift of pardon. That is what the Scriptures teach and we must go by what God says, not what you, I, or anyone else says.

DJ

 

[RJ]

RJ - no problem, thanks for your response.

rojo - I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say about the Cross of Christ. When Jesus died on the Cross and said "It is finished," Christ defeated every single sin, Satan, and after his resurrection death. This also shows He completed His Father's will and every single prophecy concerning the Messiah was completed. That is why before He gave up His spirit He said "I am thirsty" so that they would offer Him sour wine. He had to do that as that was the only prophecy left to be completed of the Messiah. After that He said "It is finished."

Remember what John the Baptist said "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29) Jesus did exactly that on the Cross. Every single sin has now been paid, past, present, and future.

This had to be done in order for us to receive salvation through Jesus Christ. There is nothing you or I can never contribute to our salvation in any way shape or form. God set a plan in motion the moment Adam sinned and fell, and was carried out through the Cross.

The Apostle Paul said "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1.)

Now I know this is where you say there is a contradiction. I say Christ paid for everyone's sin so that must mean everyone is saved, however that is not what Scripture teaches. Scripture clearly teaches that those who do not accept Christ are not redeemed.

We go by what God shows us and teaches us in the Scriptures. Jesus went to the Cross to pay the penalty for all of our sins and if we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ we have forgiveness of those sins and eternal life. If we decide not to put our faith in Jesus Christ, we will die with our sins for not accepting the gift of pardon. That is what the Scriptures teach and we must go by what God says, not what you, I, or anyone else says.

DJ

Ah DJ !!!

Living in God's truth, what a wonderful thing to see!! And Jesus said, "It will set you free"!

 

[TheDJ]

I have done some study of Scripture and here is what I am seeing.

As I continue in my study on the Gospel of John, I came across a verse that really struck me with the topic that we are talking about.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

This is saying that no one can come to believe Jesus, unless God draws them to Jesus.

In Romans 3:9 "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin."

Here Paul was telling the Jews that they have no advantage over the Gentiles in salvation. Here he states we are all under sin.

Romans 3:10-12 "as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28003">11</sup>THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28004">12</sup>ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

As Paul quotes the old testament we can see that there is no one that is righteous before God. The next thing he says is that there is not one who seeks for God. That statement hit me hard. Not one human being seeks for God, unless God draws them to Him through the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

As I look back on my salvation, I realize that I was not seeking God, but He was seeking me first. (Through people witnessing to me, preachers of the gospel, amongst other things that happened in my life.) Before I became a Christian, I had no desire for God, was not seeking God, but He was there and pulling me in. (At the time I had no idea that was happening.)

Paul finishes with saying that not even one does good, and that is how God looks on the human race.

Now the big question that comes up is how is that fair? If He chose me and not somebody else, how can that be fair? This is where it gets tough. When we look back to Adam and Eve and they rejected a relationship with God when they rejected the one thing God told them not to do, when that happened instantly they died spiritually. At that point God was under no obligation to atone for anyone's sin. He loved us so much that he paid the price on the Cross and paid for all sin, but He did not have to do that.

So when we ask the question why didn't God save everybody, we should ask the question, why did God save anyone at all? He did so out of His love and so the choices He did make are His right, because He was under no obligation to save anyone at all.

Now I don't believe and never did that God condemned certain people to hell, and saved some people. Jesus died for every single person and every sin on the Cross. It says in the Word "Whosoever will may come," but though Jesus died for everyone, it is God who draws us and if He doesn't draw us, they will reject the message.

This is what I am thinking about as I study the Scripture. No matter what, salvation is in the hands of God, and we have accepted the gift of pardon that Jesus paid for us, and It's the most amazing thing to realize we have the wonderful gift of salvation and eternal life. I am just amazed on how much God loves us.

Thoughts?

DJ