Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[B-A-C]

Believers will be spared from the wrath of God during the Trib.


Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

 

[B-A-C]

I already used part of this in the previous post, but I want to clarify something here.

Are Christians Destined for the Tribulation? Yes — But Know Whose Wrath You're Facing

There is a truth in the pre-tribulation argument that I will gladly affirm: Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God. Paul is clear enough on that point, and I have no quarrel with it.

What I do quarrel with is the leap that follows — the assumption that because we are spared God's wrath, we must therefore be removed from the Tribulation entirely. Those are two very different claims, and the Scripture does not support conflating them.

Revelation 9 Makes the Distinction For Us

Look at the locusts of Revelation 9. These are not creatures of mere imagination — they are instruments of divine judgment, released by the fifth trumpet, loosed from the bottomless pit at God's command. Their power is devastating: they torment men for five months with agony like a scorpion's sting.

And yet — "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

There it is, plain as day. The saints are present during this plague. They are on the earth. And God protects them from it. This is not a picture of an absent Church — it is a picture of a shielded Church. There is a profound difference.

The Plagues Come From God, Not Satan

Some have tried to attribute the Tribulation judgments to Satan, as though God is somehow standing back while the adversary runs loose. This will not do. The seals are opened by the Lamb. The trumpets are blown by angels before the throne. The bowls are poured out by heavenly command. God is not a bystander in the Tribulation — He is the Author of its judgments.

Satan does not send the locusts of Revelation 9. God does. And it is God who places the restraining order on them: do not touch My sealed ones.

But There Is Another Wrath at Work

Here is where the picture becomes more sobering, and where we must be honest with the text.

There are two sources of wrath operating during the Tribulation, and we must not confuse them.

The first is the wrath of God — the trumpet and bowl judgments, poured out on a Christ-rejecting world. Christians are protected from this, as Revelation 9 demonstrates.

The second is the wrath of Satan, operating through the Beast — and this one does touch the saints.

Daniel is explicit: "he shall make war with the saints" (Dan. 7:21). John echoes it: "it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (Rev. 13:7). And in Revelation 20:4, we see those "beheaded for the witness of Jesus" — martyred during the Tribulation, reigning with Christ in the resurrection.

These are not hypothetical believers left behind after a secret rapture. These are the saints of the Most High, present during the Great Tribulation, facing the Beast's campaign of persecution — and some of them paying for their faithfulness with their lives.

So Know Which Direction the Wrath Is Coming From

This is the distinction that must be made. When we say Christians are not appointed to wrath, we are speaking of God's wrath — and that is gloriously true. The sealed saints will be passed over by the instruments of divine judgment just as Israel was passed over in Egypt.

But the Beast's war against the saints is a different matter entirely. That is Satan's wrath, the rage of the dragon who "knoweth that he hath but a short time" (Rev. 12:12). And Scripture does not promise us immunity from it — it promises us faithfulness through it, and ultimately, victory beyond it.

The call of the Tribulation saints is not comfort — it is endurance. "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Rev. 13:10).

Know whose wrath you face. And know who sealed you against the other.

 

[joestue]

If believers are not appointed to wrath (Thessalonians 5:9), and the tribulation is repeatedly described as God’s wrath, how are believers present for it without contradicting that?

the same way people get cancer and die, and those without cancer get to witness it.

 

[farmerjoe]

the same way people get cancer and die, and those without cancer get to witness it.

It's disappointing that pre-tribbers can't see that not being appointed to wrath is attributed to salvation, not a rapture, and nothing to do with Tribulation. There are no contradictions here. Strong's - 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge. Get that KingJ? Not being appointed to wrath is attributed to CHRIST - not a rapture!

This is why I say pre-trib is an outright abomination. Not only is it a clear perversion of scripture, but it also gives people a false hope.

Wrath - Strong's G3709 - 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, to undergo punishment in misery.

G3709 - orgē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G3709 - ὀργή ŏrgē, or-gay'; from ; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

www.blueletterbible.org

KingJ isn't disagreeing with me, he's disagreeing with the Word of the Lord. Why would he agree? I've never know but ONE pre-tribber to use resources like Strongs and Thayer's. If they did it throws their diabolical pre-trib into the abyss.

 

[Bill]

Of course. Christians are commanded to preach the gospel. No disagreement there.

But that does not contradict what happens during the tribulation. Right now the gospel goes out through the Church and the work of the Holy Spirit. During the tribulation, scripture shows that God raises up the two witnesses and the 144,000 to proclaim the message in a much more direct and confrontational way.

Those who respond to the gospel now are responding during a period of grace where faith is the central requirement Rom 10:9. The tribulation, however, becomes a period of open conflict between allegiance to God and allegiance to the beast Rev 14:9-11.



When Paul describes believers being caught up to meet the Lord, he ends by saying we should comfort one another with these words in First Epistle to the Thessalonians 4:18.

And in the case of this thread, I am arguing that a non-rapture belief incriminates God as evil. It is a Christians 'one' job to properly represent God to the lost 1 Cor 5:20.



No disagreement with that at all. Christians should absolutely be praying for each other and sharing the gospel.

But that is really a separate issue.



All who get to heaven receive a crown. Those raptured and those who are tribulation saints. The only scripture I know of us judging is from Paul in 1 Cor 6:3, and according to that we only judge angels.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

The way that people think of when they are in heaven there's nothing like it is here on Earth. Those who I've met in heaven, are all grateful that they are there. There is no one who places one self above another in heaven. It doesn't matter if you're truly a saint when you get there or if you squeak in like the thief on the cross, all are equal to each other. The only difference is is your relationship with God.

From what I have seen, and what I'm here to witness is that all have a special relationship with God and it is a private thing. But but as far as people in heaven go, no one looks to another thinking that they are above one another.

 

[Bill]

How does it contradict the words of Jesus?

What are your thoughts on the three items raised in the OP?

False hope? Do you not think a kid that you adopted as your own son needs to be rescued from your wrath and protected from your enemy?

Not believing in a rapture event makes a mockery of scripture and implies God is evil.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom.
My friend, the deceitful teaching of the Rapture is this. It takes away from God. It becomes its own entity if you will. How many I have heard talk about the rapture more than they talk about God himself.

The conversations on the Rapture are endless, and they do nothing for a person's faith. Do you have the faith to walk on water? No nor do I. But these are the types of faith that we need to drive for deeper faith and a deeper love of God. You have to remember that in your love of God you have nothing to fear. And if you have nothing to fear why should we think about going in the Rapture if there's nothing to fear?

The Rapture itself is all about fear. It's about not having faith in God. How can you say that you have faith in God, and feel you need to escape the planet. How can you experience your faith to its fullest, if you're removed from the Challenge?

The Israelites have more faith in God than most Christians do, especially those who are trapped in the belief of the rapture. The Israelites believe without a doubt that God will save them, and they are right that God will save them. Even though they have chosen to reject Jesus than the Messiah, God doesn't hold that completely against them. After all the Israelites are the favorite children of God. In all of Revelations begins with Jerusalem.

Never once in the scripture do we see where God removes people from the face of the Earth taking them to heaven to escape what is coming upon the evil Nations. We see a lot being led by the angel out of Sodom and Gomorrah. And he has to start over again in another place. We see the Israelites being led out of the land of Egypt, and walk the desert for 40 years. We see the Israelites leaving the land of Persia and all the other places but never once do we see them going to heaven. Some individuals yes, but it's because God took them.

Do you really believe that your time here in America is under more hardship than it was for the slaves of Egypt. Or worse than the time of the Holocaust? Or worse than those who are in China?

No rapture is a false teacher it's only focus is to draw you away from the truth of God, to draw you away from faith in God

 

[farmerjoe]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

You can say that all you want, but it is unfolding. And it will happen for the most part during your lifetime. So I will enjoy watching you try to explain it what things are happening as they happen in front of you.

The breaking of the six seal, the breaking of the seven seal, the Antichrist, the two witnesses, the mark of the beast. All these things will happen in your lifetime, enjoy it

At 71 and 72 in May I'm not sure it'll happen in my lifetime. I do have a cancer but it's not aggressive like many others. I apologize for getting down on you about RevelationS, that for some reason has always bothered me.

 

[KingJ]

Believers will be spared from the wrath of God during the Trib.

Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

That passage proves protection in a specific judgment.

The tribulation includes:

• global wrath being poured out (plagues that affect all)
• the beast being given authority over the saints (Rev 13:7)
• persecution, exclusion, and execution

So the question still stands: if believers are not appointed to wrath (Thess 5:9), why are they present during a period that is repeatedly described as God’s wrath?

Pointing to one instance of protection doesn’t explain the broader issue. It just shows God can protect within the tribulation, not why the Church, those that are ready for Him, His people would be there through it.

It boils down to our disagreement on OSAS verse non-OSAS. You believe there is no such thing as a Christian sealed. You believe we all need to prove our devotion to God. Even the devil will try turn us. As opposed to the devil knowing we are his enemy and cannot turn us. This is why you cannot accept or grasp the relevance of Thess 5:9.

 

[KingJ]

It's disappointing that pre-tribbers can't see that not being appointed to wrath is attributed to salvation, not a rapture, and nothing to do with Tribulation. There are no contradictions here. Strong's - 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge. Get that KingJ? Not being appointed to wrath is attributed to CHRIST - not a rapture!

This is why I say pre-trib is an outright abomination. Not only is it a clear perversion of scripture, but it also gives people a false hope.

Wrath - Strong's G3709 - 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, to undergo punishment in misery.

G3709 - orgē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G3709 - ὀργή ŏrgē, or-gay'; from ; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

www.blueletterbible.org

KingJ isn't disagreeing with me, he's disagreeing with the Word of the Lord. Why would he agree? I've never know but ONE pre-tribber to use resources like Strongs and Thayer's. If they did it throws their diabolical pre-trib into the abyss.

Thess 5:9 is a promise to believers. It encompasses salvation sure, of course. But it is not isolated to that. It is not simply a case of ''If you are a human who decides to believe, you escape hell''.

Which brings us back to the question you are not answering:

If believers are not appointed to wrath, and the tribulation is described as God’s wrath being poured out, why are believers still there during it?

Using Strong’s definition doesn’t solve that. It explains the word, but not how the promise is applied.

 

[farmerjoe]

If I could delete my content I would. I hate this place because I hate pre-trib with a passion. Goodbye folks see you on the other side.

 

[KingJ]

If I could delete my content I would. I hate this place because I hate pre-trib with a passion. Goodbye folks see you on the other side.

You say you don't like pre-tribbers because they give false hope.

Many 'think' pre-tribbers do not believe they will endure persecuation. But we will. All will. What we will not endure is God's wrath and abandonment.

You need to try understand that a rapture message is scripturally sound and properly represents God as good, loving and righteous. No rapture, incriminates Him as explained in the OP.

As such, you and many others need to stop dodging the points raised in the OP and explain how God is good, loving and righteous if there is no rapture event.

 

[KingJ]

I already used part of this in the previous post, but I want to clarify something here.

Are Christians Destined for the Tribulation? Yes — But Know Whose Wrath You're Facing

There is a truth in the pre-tribulation argument that I will gladly affirm: Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God. Paul is clear enough on that point, and I have no quarrel with it.

What I do quarrel with is the leap that follows — the assumption that because we are spared God's wrath, we must therefore be removed from the Tribulation entirely. Those are two very different claims, and the Scripture does not support conflating them.

Revelation 9 Makes the Distinction For Us

Look at the locusts of Revelation 9. These are not creatures of mere imagination — they are instruments of divine judgment, released by the fifth trumpet, loosed from the bottomless pit at God's command. Their power is devastating: they torment men for five months with agony like a scorpion's sting.

And yet — "only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

There it is, plain as day. The saints are present during this plague. They are on the earth. And God protects them from it. This is not a picture of an absent Church — it is a picture of a shielded Church. There is a profound difference.

The Plagues Come From God, Not Satan

Some have tried to attribute the Tribulation judgments to Satan, as though God is somehow standing back while the adversary runs loose. This will not do. The seals are opened by the Lamb. The trumpets are blown by angels before the throne. The bowls are poured out by heavenly command. God is not a bystander in the Tribulation — He is the Author of its judgments.

Satan does not send the locusts of Revelation 9. God does. And it is God who places the restraining order on them: do not touch My sealed ones.

But There Is Another Wrath at Work

Here is where the picture becomes more sobering, and where we must be honest with the text.

There are two sources of wrath operating during the Tribulation, and we must not confuse them.

The first is the wrath of God — the trumpet and bowl judgments, poured out on a Christ-rejecting world. Christians are protected from this, as Revelation 9 demonstrates.

The second is the wrath of Satan, operating through the Beast — and this one does touch the saints.

Daniel is explicit: "he shall make war with the saints" (Dan. 7:21). John echoes it: "it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (Rev. 13:7). And in Revelation 20:4, we see those "beheaded for the witness of Jesus" — martyred during the Tribulation, reigning with Christ in the resurrection.

These are not hypothetical believers left behind after a secret rapture. These are the saints of the Most High, present during the Great Tribulation, facing the Beast's campaign of persecution — and some of them paying for their faithfulness with their lives.

So Know Which Direction the Wrath Is Coming From

This is the distinction that must be made. When we say Christians are not appointed to wrath, we are speaking of God's wrath — and that is gloriously true. The sealed saints will be passed over by the instruments of divine judgment just as Israel was passed over in Egypt.

But the Beast's war against the saints is a different matter entirely. That is Satan's wrath, the rage of the dragon who "knoweth that he hath but a short time" (Rev. 12:12). And Scripture does not promise us immunity from it — it promises us faithfulness through it, and ultimately, victory beyond it.

The call of the Tribulation saints is not comfort — it is endurance. "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Rev. 13:10).

Know whose wrath you face. And know who sealed you against the other.

BAC, I hear what you are saying, and I agree with part of it.

Yes, there is a distinction between God’s wrath and Satan’s persecution. And yes, scripture clearly shows the beast makes war with the saints (Rev 13:7). No disagreement there.

But you are still not resolving the main issue. You are saying believers are present during the tribulation and are protected from God’s wrath, while only facing Satan’s wrath.

The problem is the tribulation itself is repeatedly described as God’s wrath being poured out on the earth, not just isolated judgments.

For example, Rev 6:16-17 says “the great day of His wrath has come.” That is describing the period itself, not just one specific event.

So the question still stands:

If believers are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9), why are they present during a time that is explicitly called God’s wrath?

Pointing to Rev 9 only shows protection in one judgment. It does not explain why the Church would remain through the entire period where God’s wrath is being poured out globally.

Also, your argument creates another issue. You are saying believers are sealed and protected from God’s wrath, but at the same time exposed to Satan’s full attack, including execution.

But scripture describes believers as:

• sealed (Eph 1:13–14)
• not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9)
• delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thess 1:10)

So the question becomes: why would God leave those already accepted, sealed, and secure in a period of global judgment and maximum satanic activity, when there is no further test required for them?

So again, the issue is not whether God can protect people during the tribulation (He can and will where needed). The issue is why the Church, already justified and sealed, would be there at all.

----------------------

I can't help but notice how you are discussing points like this while ignoring / not getting closure on the three colossal errors in your theology.

Mentioned now a few times to you:

1. Matthew 24:36 describes an event where no one knows the day or hour. But the end of the tribulation is a countable, fixed period (seven years) at the end of the sixth day (six thousand years). Those two things don’t naturally line up as the same event.

2. We are told every eye sees Him (Philippians 2:10–11, Rev 1:7), yet we’re also told one is taken and another left (Matthew 24:40–41).
Those are very different kinds of events.

3. The criteria around salvation during the tribulation becomes difficult to reconcile if there is no pre-trib rapture. Romans 10:9 teaches that confession and belief bring salvation, yet Revelation 14:9–11 states that anyone who takes the mark cannot be saved. So the question is, how do you reconcile those two during the same period? Because one presents salvation as available through faith, while the other introduces a point of no return. This makes Rom 10:9 completely obsolete and or a lie.

 

[KingJ]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

The way that people think of when they are in heaven there's nothing like it is here on Earth. Those who I've met in heaven, are all grateful that they are there. There is no one who places one self above another in heaven. It doesn't matter if you're truly a saint when you get there or if you squeak in like the thief on the cross, all are equal to each other. The only difference is is your relationship with God.

From what I have seen, and what I'm here to witness is that all have a special relationship with God and it is a private thing. But but as far as people in heaven go, no one looks to another thinking that they are above one another.

Agree 100%. Not sure what the relevance is?

 

[KingJ]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom.
My friend, the deceitful teaching of the Rapture is this. It takes away from God. It becomes its own entity if you will. How many I have heard talk about the rapture more than they talk about God himself.

I don't agree that it takes away from God. It adds to God. It is evidence of His love, goodness, righteousness and protection of His people.

Rom 10:9 says we are saved and that we are sealed in Christ Eph 1:3 if we can call Jesus Lord and believe He was raised from the dead. A revelation given to a human 1 Cor 12:3 only after God judges depth of intent of heart and mind Jer 17:9-11 for repentance of sin Luke 5:32. And scripture then promises believers that we will not endure God's wrath 1 Thess 5:19 which the tribulation period is Rev 6:16-17.

Now if there is no rapture, then one of the following three options and or a combination of them are true.

A. God is a liar as you are not saved according to Rom 10:9. He needs to further test you.
B. God is a liar as you will endure His wrath in the tribulation Rev 6:16017.
C. God is both evil and a liar as He does leave and forsake you when He says He won't Heb 13:5.
D. God was confused when He said one will be taken and another left, He meant to say every knee will bow and see Him, unlike a thief in the night.
E. Jesus was confused when He said nobody knows the day and the hour Matt 24:36. He forgot that everyone in heaven can count to six thousand years and the seven years at the end of the sixth day of a thousand years.
F. God is dumb as He does not know who are His. Jer 17:9-11 is included in scripture by mistake.

I could go on and on but I will stop there.

Can you give examples of how it takes 'away' from God please.

I assume you see it as God showing preference to some. That is not how you should see it. You need to see it as a filtering process. All those that have come to God by faith in Jesus have 'passed the test' and do not need to be further tested. God and the devil both know this. Which means for a Christian to stay behind in the tribulation would be complete abandonment by God. The devil will not look to 'turn' a Christian. But non-Christians. Those no raptured. These are harder nuts to crack. God has chosen A. to place the devil in a position of power and 'hold a gun to their heads' Rev 2:10 & Rev 14:9-11 and B. To rain down His wrath in the form of plagues (seven trumpets Rev 8 to 11, bowl judgements Rev 16)...in order to 'turn them'.

Some will come to God, but none of them can hold to Rom 10:9. They need to be mindful of Rev 2:10 and Rev 14:9-11.

 

[KingJ]

The conversations on the Rapture are endless,

The discussion seems endless as much like those on hell, it is a vastly unknown future event.

But just like the topic of hell, it is important to ensure that your view does not taint and incriminate God. Most Christians do not care about that. They should. Incriminating God is failing at your 'one' job 2 Cor 5:20.

and they do nothing for a person's faith. Do you have the faith to walk on water? No nor do I. But these are the types of faith that we need to drive for deeper faith and a deeper love of God. You have to remember that in your love of God you have nothing to fear. And if you have nothing to fear why should we think about going in the Rapture if there's nothing to fear?

I don't think we develop our faith by trying to walk on water. Attempts like that would be tempting God.

We are not to focus on growing in faith. When we are first saved, we are gifted saving faith Rom 12:3. Faith to believe Jesus is Lord 1 Cor 12:3. That is 100% faith. You cannot believe Jesus exists anymore then what is already gifted to you.

Now, as a Christian, you serve God. Serve Him not for salvation, but because you love Him. He honours servitude with gifts in heaven and as you said, the greatest gift is being closer to Him. Very true.

We grow in this relationship with Him.

Our ability to walk on water or to believe that the unseen is seen in greater and more amazing ways is of absolutely no value to God.

 

[KingJ]

The Rapture itself is all about fear. It's about not having faith in God. How can you say that you have faith in God, and feel you need to escape the planet. How can you experience your faith to its fullest, if you're removed from the Challenge?

You are missing the bigger picture. The tribulation is not merely a 'trying time'. It is a time when God's wrath hits earth and when the devil is given power over all.

There are trying times now and they will get a lot worse as we get closer to the tribulation. A Christian can and will endure trying times. The tribulation would not simply be a 'trying time' for a Christian.

The problem is that you and all other non-OSAS believers do not yet fully grasp what exactly a Christian is. You assume God makes mistakes and cannot properly vet a person for heaven now. No, only if we can endure hardship and die for Him can our heart be right.

You reduce God to the intelligence of a human and make a mockery of every scripture that says we are saved by faith. Rom 10:9 being the most significant.

When you grasp that a Christian is sealed in Christ right now, then you can grasp how evil it would be of God to leave us behind in the tribulation.

It is 100% on par with you leaving your child with your enemy that hates you and will only harm them. Like a known paedophile. This is the picture of God that you draw to saved Christians. The rapture is a very serious discussion.

 

[KingJ]

The Israelites have more faith in God than most Christians do,

Completely disagree.

A Christian has perfect faith that God exists. You are gifted faith Rom 12:3 to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God of the universe 1 Cor 12:3.

1 Cor 12:3 no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 10:9 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The very criteria to be saved is believing Jesus is God and was raised from the dead.

Jews, would have to force themselves to believe their holy history book and rely on their eyes and brains to grasp God from creation per Rom 1:20. We as Christians are a hundred steps ahead.

especially those who are trapped in the belief of the rapture.

Belief in a rapture doesn't take faith. It takes A. Putting effort into reading the bible and B. Knowing God.

The Israelites believe without a doubt that God will save them, and they are right that God will save them. Even though they have chosen to reject Jesus than the Messiah, God doesn't hold that completely against them. After all the Israelites are the favorite children of God. In all of Revelations begins with Jerusalem.

Israelites are not the favourite children of God. God has no favourites. He is impartial Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11. A human is not a child. A child can experience His love. A human can't. Jews were His chosen race. All who repented of sins in the OT, Jew and gentile were placed in Abrahams bosom.

Never once in the scripture do we see where God removes people from the face of the Earth taking them to heaven to escape what is coming upon the evil Nations. We see a lot being led by the angel out of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Your two lines contradict each other. Line 1 - ''God never removes His people''. Line 2 = ''God removed Lot from Sodom''.

And he has to start over again in another place. We see the Israelites being led out of the land of Egypt, and walk the desert for 40 years. We see the Israelites leaving the land of Persia and all the other places but never once do we see them going to heaven. Some individuals yes, but it's because God took them.

The Jews were tested. A Christian has passed the test. A better comparison would be God throwing the Jews back into slavery after they had lived a while in the promised land after passing many tests in the wilderness.

Do you really believe that your time here in America is under more hardship than it was for the slaves of Egypt. Or worse than the time of the Holocaust? Or worse than those who are in China?

Do you really think a Christian needs to be tortured before God can know the state of their heart?

No rapture is a false teacher it's only focus is to draw you away from the truth of God, to draw you away from faith in God

No, a non rapture belief incriminates God. As explained multiple times in this thread.

I would really like you to take my posts and quote them as I have done with yours. You seem to just keep post your random thoughts and beliefs on the topic here. And much like @farmerjoe keep pushing this narrative that a rapture belief is evil, yet provide no sound and logical reasons for it.