Power of God to keep his own.

[Brother Mike]

Jiggyfly

But I also know that there is a very long history of christians who have suffered many things for the sake of the gospel and spiritual maturity including sickness and death. I must say that I am much more persuaded by these accounts through history than the teaching propigated by those in the WOF movement.

Thank you Brother, I forgot how much I had to rely on God everyday just to keep all my parts. I also had a Muslim group to deal with latter on.

As for that Word of Faith movement I am part of....... I see a correlation of Obedience to what God tells you to do with Staying alive long on earth. I also see that what you believe has a lot to do with keeping your hide.

Act 18:10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.


Act 27:24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

I see the the Angel did not tell Paul he was going to be delivered because Paul had faith or that God loved Paul. The reason given was that Paul had something to do for God and was in the Will of God.

A big problem in the Word of Faith Movement is that many use it as a formula. Protection is NOT based on what you say all the time, and what you claim to believe. What most of them miss is that it's a relationship with God and following the Holy Ghost. Be where God told you to be, and do what He told you to do. God's protection is based on being led by the Holy Ghost. Not confessing something over and over and boldly going off to get Yourself Killed. If I get a check in my spirit about something I STOP, even if it is something simple like driving to the store. Confessing "No weapon formed against me shall prosper." is not going to save me for ignoring the Holy Spirit.

As for those others that have died.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

I have no idea how you can get a better resurrection or what that even means, but it would seem God is faithful and deliverance from anything is available.

I know one thing, Faith speaks, and I will side with the Word of God. If he said I am by his Stripes Healed, then how my body feels about it means nothing. Protections starts with what comes out of your mouth, for that is what your heart believes. Not in Sunday School, or home listening to some faith CD. It's when tragedy strikes, what you believe will take over.

Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

It's not the confessing over and over though that sows the word in your spirit. It's what your heart really believes and it will slip out of your mouth for good or bad.




Jer 42:4 Then Jeremiah the prophet said unto them, I have heard you; behold, I will pray unto the LORD your God according to your words; and it shall come to pass, that whatsoever thing the LORD shall answer you, I will declare it unto you; I will keep nothing back from you.

Num 14:28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Jesus Is Lord

 

[jiggyfly]

I also see that what you believe has a lot to do with keeping your hide.

Could you elaborate some Mike? What that I believe indicates the motivation of self preservation?

I moved your last post out of the thread where you were no longer participating and brought it here.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thats what I meant.

What that I believe indicates the motivation of self preservation?

Thats pretty close. Your faith in What God said determines the outcome of things. You believe him or you don't. Jesus talked about this with the two men that built houses. One took heed to the Words of Jesus and the other that lost his house did not.

Of course not believing that sin leads to death can also make your life short on earth.

So believing what God said is the smart thing to do anyway. If it keeps you from sin that can destroy your life, or delivers you from some tragedy all the good as thats why God sent his word in the first place. To deliver us from our destructions.

Be blessed.

Jesus Is Lord

 

[jiggyfly]

Thats pretty close. Your faith in What God said determines the outcome of things. You believe him or you don't. Jesus talked about this with the two men that built houses. One took heed to the Words of Jesus and the other that lost his house did not.

Of course not believing that sin leads to death can also make your life short on earth.

So believing what God said is the smart thing to do anyway. If it keeps you from sin that can destroy your life, or delivers you from some tragedy all the good as thats why God sent his word in the first place. To deliver us from our destructions.

Be blessed.

Jesus Is Lord

But what about your statement here?

I also see that what you believe has a lot to do with keeping your hide

.

What have you seen concerning my beliefs that indicates "Keeping my hide"?

 

[Brother Mike]

Your Hide........

Oh..................... I see. Ok.

No, I was not addressing you or anyone in particular. Just from lots of Bible study, and hearing testimony from others. It is evident that what you believe in the Word, Believe who God is, Believe that God wants to get involved, Believe that there is no situation so Hopeless that God can't fix it. Is all a part of ANYONE wanting to keep their Hide intact.

I read your article on the gifts of the Spirit and I was pretty amazed at your insight even though your so Anti Word of Faith. Then again, the Bible has nothing to do with any denomination or religion. It's just What God said, and all the other just gets things confused and twisted.

Be blessed.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Mark of Faith]

I am concerned at the prosperity and glory on earth teaching that seems so prevalent in some parts of the Church.

I can see where such teaching comes from, yet in order to be true one would have to dispute large parts of Scripture.

God keeps us for Him.

He doesn't keep us for the world, as those that think faith is about "keeping one's hide" seem to suggest. The greatest statement of faith is to be martyred. Our glory is not to be found in this World, but in the Future Kingdom of Heaven.

(I know some will say, "the Kingdom is already here". Yes, it is. But there is a difference between the present Kingdom, where "the kingdom of heaven suffers violence" and the Future Eternal Kingdom of complete consummation.)

Ask Paul, Peter, Stephen, Huss, Jerome, Tyndale, Luther, Bonhoeffer.....and countless brothers and sisters of great and amazing faith who confess that Jesus is Lord as the literal swords pierce their hearts.....if they deem "saving their hide" the most important thing.

Mark.

 

[jiggyfly]

Oh..................... I see. Ok.

No, I was not addressing you or anyone in particular. Just from lots of Bible study, and hearing testimony from others. It is evident that what you believe in the Word, Believe who God is, Believe that God wants to get involved, Believe that there is no situation so Hopeless that God can't fix it. Is all a part of ANYONE wanting to keep their Hide intact.





Jesus Is Lord.

Ok, sorry I misunderstood you. I agree with what your saying here and would add that what most people believe is a result of religious teaching rather than revelation from HolySpirit.

 

[jiggyfly]

I am concerned at the prosperity and glory on earth teaching that seems so prevalent in some parts of the Church.

I can see where such teaching comes from, yet in order to be true one would have to dispute large parts of Scripture.

God keeps us for Him.

He doesn't keep us for the world, as those that think faith is about "keeping one's hide" seem to suggest. The greatest statement of faith is to be martyred. Our glory is not to be found in this World, but in the Future Kingdom of Heaven.

(I know some will say, "the Kingdom is already here". Yes, it is. But there is a difference between the present Kingdom, where "the kingdom of heaven suffers violence" and the Future Eternal Kingdom of complete consummation.)

Ask Paul, Peter, Stephen, Huss, Jerome, Tyndale, Luther, Bonhoeffer.....and countless brothers and sisters of great and amazing faith who confess that Jesus is Lord as the literal swords pierce their hearts.....if they deem "saving their hide" the most important thing.

Mark.

Yes we have seen glimpses of the Kingdom here on earth but they are mere fractions of what is to come.

I like what Jesus said; "Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be." Matt. 6:21

 

[Boanerges]

I am concerned at the prosperity and glory on earth teaching that seems so prevalent in some parts of the Church. I can see where such teaching comes from, yet in order to be true one would have to dispute large parts of Scripture. God keeps us for Him.

The average person today with electricity, air conditioning, etc lives better than a king in the old testament.
The prosperity "Gospels"or "doctrines" are theology run amok. The New Covenant teaches dying to self and finding new life in Christ, preferring one another in love, seeking first the Kingdom of God. I have been in many of those churches (the greater New Orleans area is loaded with them) and the message is generally about me, me ,me and I,I,I. One man told me that God owed him money because he gave first.
What a tragedy and a perversion of the Word of God.
Does God want to bless us? Yes. Does He plan to give us all gold coins and Cadillacs? Doubtful.

As for the WOF movement-
The Word of God in the lips of faith can move a mountain but like every doctrine must be in balance with the whole Word of God.
Yes God moves when we speak His Word in faith but only as we are led of His Spirit to do so and in accordance with His will.

 

[Brother Mike]

Prosperity Gospel

Mark of Faith

I am concerned at the prosperity and glory on earth teaching that seems so prevalent in some parts of the Church.

I can see where such teaching comes from, yet in order to be true one would have to dispute large parts of Scripture.

We don't need Prosperity in Heaven. We need it here on earth to get the work of the Lord done. The more resources we have the better Job we can do.

Jesus said GIVE!!! and it shall be Given shaken pressed together.
What you sow you have to reap.
Multiply your seed sown.

There is a giving part in the Scripture, but there is also a reaping part. Just giving and not expecting God to multiply your giving and increase you more and more is ignoring half of the scripture.

Even a farmer does not expect to sit around and not plant anything then expect something to just grow so He can have a harvest and feed his family, bringing money in. Farmers have more sense than that. Christians should to.

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Psa 115:14 The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children.

God supplies all our needs. Not this worlds system. Our system is based on putting the Word of the Lord First, and all these others things are added on.

(I know some will say, "the Kingdom is already here". Yes, it is. But there is a difference between the present Kingdom, where "the kingdom of heaven suffers violence" and the Future Eternal Kingdom of complete consummation.)

When speaking of the Kingdom of God in Matthew chapter 6, Jesus prayed. He knew the Will of God............

Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.............

How many broke people in Heaven? How many in Wheel chairs? That statement alone is all that should be needed to prove God wants to bless us though all this satanic oppression and evil we deal with on this planet. Thats Red Letters, and if the Head of the Church said that then it's good enough for me.


Boanerges:

Yes God moves when we speak His Word in faith but only as we are led of His Spirit to do so and in accordance with His will.

Thats pretty amazing. Our Pastor just got done teaching on that this week. It changed my thinking on a few things. While the scripture is true, we just can't go off and claim protection, prosperity, ETC and make it fit our own plans and agenda. Even Jesus only did what he Heard and saw his father do. Nothing on his own.

My Pastor is Keith Moore, raised under Kenneth Hagin and very good friends with the Copelands. Now there are some names people don't like to hear in the more traditional Churches.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Mark of Faith]

The average person today with electricity, air conditioning, etc lives better than a king in the old testament.
The prosperity "Gospels"or "doctrines" are theology run amok. The New Covenant teaches dying to self and finding new life in Christ, preferring one another in love, seeking first the Kingdom of God. I have been in many of those churches (the greater New Orleans area is loaded with them) and the message is generally about me, me ,me and I,I,I. One man told me that God owed him money because he gave first.
What a tragedy and a perversion of the Word of God.
Does God want to bless us? Yes. Does He plan to give us all gold coins and Cadillacs? Doubtful.

As for the WOF movement-
The Word of God in the lips of faith can move a mountain but like every doctrine must be in balance with the whole Word of God.
Yes God moves when we speak His Word in faith but only as we are led of His Spirit to do so and in accordance with His will.

Boanerges, my post was perhaps a bit harsh, but you have put this reply very wisely.

I am just concerned that the "get it now folks" theology is so easy to follow with "cos this life is all you've got". A matured, real, life changing theology would prefer death to being in the world (must admit, I don't think I'm yet able to echo Paul in this), as Paul said "to live is Christ, to die is gain." (Emphasis mine.)

If God blesses us with riches too much, we become conceited and claim we can do without God. (Examples, I am sad to say, are the UK and US.)

Jesus spoke more of spiritual prosperity than material. Indeed, he suggested that His people would have cause to worry where the next meal was coming from. So, He taught them not to worry.

He said "blessed are the poor", and "woe to you who are rich." (Luke).

When we are poor, we learn to depend more on God. God is faithful, yes! He keeps us, He provides for us. Yet His wisdom is beyond us. Remember, Jesus knew the pain of unanswered prayer as He knows all our weaknesses. (I refer to our Lord's prayer in Gethsemane that "this cup may pass from Me".)

Mark.

 

[jiggyfly]

We don't need Prosperity in Heaven. We need it here on earth to get the work of the Lord done. The more resources we have the better Job we can do.

I have heard this preached by the pinnacles of the WOF movement many times. Once at a major mens fellowship convention in Miami Mr. Dollar said " it is going to take millions, no, billions of dollars to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth". As soon as he said that the HolySpirit told me " but Peter and John didn't have a dime". I left and sent a note to the president of the fellowship and resigned from my position.

Acts 3:6
But Peter said, "I don't have any money for you. But I'll give you what I have. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, get up and walk!"

It is not by force nor by strength, but by money , says the WOF.

 

[jiggyfly]

Another serious flaw in the practices of the WOF movement concerning giving is they ( the preachers) are always the recipients of the gifts. There is no scripture that I have found yet where NT believers are encouraged to give to the rich. Copeland, Duplantis, Dollar, Meyers and so on all openly boast of being millionaires but they are spiritually bankrupt and don't know it.

 

[Brother Mike]

I thought so.

Well, I did not expect a good response from you considering the past. If you were my Pastor, I would not want you to have to ride a bicycle to church because you could not afford a car.

If you had to go out of town to preach, I would not want my pastor to have to sleep outside because there was no money for a hotel.

I would give to you Jiggyfly as a man of God that has a mission.

Wealth is in the eye of the beholder. Who sets the meter on the term Wealthy?

If I wear a nice timex that works, whats wrong with you wearing a Rolex? Ya, as a pastor you should not be wearing a rolex if I can't afford one?

Then a guy comes along and makes fun of your cheap watch. Why? He is wearing a Blancpain 1735 Grande. Thats priced around 800,000 dollars.

It all depends how poverty minded a person is. God is not broke, and He is not opposed to his Children having wealth. Now what you consider wealth (Not Spiritual Wealth) will depend on what your able to recieve from God.

Be blessed and thanx for the replies!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

Well, I did not expect a good response from you considering the past. If you were my Pastor, I would not want you to have to ride a bicycle to church because you could not afford a car.

If you had to go out of town to preach, I would not want my pastor to have to sleep outside because there was no money for a hotel.

I would give to you Jiggyfly as a man of God that has a mission.

Wealth is in the eye of the beholder. Who sets the meter on the term Wealthy?

If I wear a nice timex that works, whats wrong with you wearing a Rolex? Ya, as a pastor you should not be wearing a rolex if I can't afford one?

Then a guy comes along and makes fun of your cheap watch. Why? He is wearing a Blancpain 1735 Grande. Thats priced around 800,000 dollars.

It all depends how poverty minded a person is. God is not broke, and He is not opposed to his Children having wealth. Now what you consider wealth (Not Spiritual Wealth) will depend on what your able to recieve from God.

Be blessed and thanx for the replies!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

Well Mike you are entitled to your own opinion and we probably can not say anything here to change it, so let's just keep one thing in mind, this is TalkJesus. Let us all keep it in mind and all that really is worth anything and has any value is Jesus. :wink:

 

[Brother Mike]

Sounds good to me.

I was hoping to change your mind with some reasoning. I think we talked about this stuff before.

Oh well............

Your right, I think we got in an area where we hit the wall. We did agree on a few things, so thats comforting.

Be blessed

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

I was hoping to change your mind with some reasoning. I think we talked about this stuff before.

Oh well............

Your right, I think we got in an area where we hit the wall. We did agree on a few things, so thats comforting.

Be blessed

Jesus Is Lord.

Thanks Brother Mike I really appreciate the attitude you displayed here. Maybe in time we will be able to discuss the basic fundamentals of this paradigm in scriptural detail without tension.:wink:

I used to be very wrapped up in the WOF movement (about ten years ago), so I am not ignorant of many of it's teachings.

 

[Mark of Faith]

Phew!

I came back to this thread to see the latest replies, with misgivings.

So it's a "phew" moment that it has drawn to a "agree to disagree" end.

Now I can get on with my ministry!

Love to you in Christ,
Mark.

 

[Boanerges]

I came back to this thread to see the latest replies, with misgivings.

So it's a "phew" moment that it has drawn to a "agree to disagree" end.

Now I can get on with my ministry!

Love to you in Christ,
Mark.

Completely united in doctrine? No.
United in spirit and purpose as we press forward as brothers in His service? A big yes!
If we are born again we are holy family. Where we disagree let us agree to love each other and trust God to bring His light.