Personal Attacks

[gdemoss]

I have been reading threads here and there is a common theme that comes up where accusations are made that people are not simply discussing doctrinal beliefs but making jabs and personally attacking others which is not allowed here at the forum. But when I open my bible I am faced with many examples that I am supposed to follow, that appear to me to be the same that which some would call a personal attack.

So I guess this is Paul attacking Peter over his sin.

Galatians 2
11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid

Here is Jesus attacking Peter over his sin.

21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And who can forget Stephen as he attacked the Pharisees and Scribes.

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Or Peter as he attacked Jesus' murderers.

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

We are encouraged to attack in this manner. Rebuking people openly for their sin.

1 Tim 5
19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

And as for the heretics:

Titus 3
10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Well maybe I am just bending and twisting scripture to suit my own purposes? God forbid. Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace but a sword. The sword of the Lord is the Word of God. Ecumenicism is not of God except it be of being of one mind in the Lord. That mind being one that is wholly given unto God that is not reprobate but earnestly seeks lift up an edify one another in love, which love sometimes looks like the above passages of scripture. In each case the one who is doing the rebuking is one who is full of and led by the Holy Spirit in what they are doing. It is of God, anyone who thinks otherwise may find themselves fighting against God. A battle that ends in their defeat.

As it is written, For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. And the devil goes around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour but we need to be like those in Hebrews chapter 11 and stop the mouths of lions.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[Brother Mike]

Personal Attacks.

Certainly the bible is replete with examples of rebuke and some of it is pretty forward.

Because I am on someone else Forum (Chad's) being Chad's Ministry to the Lord, it is no longer I that set the standard for responses, but thankful to God that I can be a part of Chad's Ministry.

Those that sign up here are called members and are extremely valued. In essence They are part of Chad's Ministry to others.

Right now there are only 18 people that are members, but 255 people on the forums reading post and getting answers. Talk Jesus is a place where many get the answers they need, but never sign up.

We have 18 people here posting answers, compared to the 255 seeking them.

As a member we must obey the rules.

One should try to refrain from lashing back at a poorly behaving member or participating in a flame war; instead, notify the message board's staff of the event.

Once again, keeping in mind many come here for answers we must refrain from personal attacks, and we do have P.M's if we know that by the Lord someone needs to be rebuked, and by the Lord they will receive it.

If a rebuke comes out of frustration, it's not God. This is mostly the case.

I get P.M's of rebuke form time to time, and that is perfectly fine, because someone does not believe as I do.

Example:
Instead of:

What you believe is going to set you on the path of Hell.

Could be:

Could you provide scripture that explain such and such, and if what you say is true, could you explain my scripture here.

IF someone says, your so stupid you can't even read plain scripture. That is a attack on the person, and not what they believe and clearly designed to offend them. More serious than telling them they are on the path to hell (According to what you believe)


When rebuking personally, What we say is that, what I believe is right, and what you believe is wrong. This removes the ministry of the forum being Non-denominational, and making it MY denomination.

This can't be right as each is a equal member, and nobody was given charge to personally attack someone, or make the forum line up with their belief system. It's Chad's Ministry.

Chad said provide a scripture when making a biblical point, this can be asked for. If the person refuses, then report it and Anything else needs reported.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

Excellent post Mike, you worded this very well, thank you.

 

[Kit Carson]

I suppose bear in mind that the internet can be so different than face to face discussion.

Such as Paul and Peter speaking with each other, what all was said, what was the attitudes and results......how do some some view this over another. I am sure with the help of the Holy Spirit they worked it out.

Also bear in mind God wishes us to be patient. A personal attack is but a thing, if you get upset over that , a few words on the internet you need to develop a thicker skin. Gods word will be challenged, for sure. Some will understand one way and some another. Patience is the key.

If attacked it is but a thing. Look beyond it and see the reason why. Maybe you did eat a stupid pill that day. Lol!

Those of God and those seeking God there is no need for mean spirited things to be said. It only works against a common goal to provide the understanding and the truth.

But for sure the internet is not at all like talking face to face. Besides what is the big deal if you are attacked, just turn it around by being kind and with explanation. Not a big deal to me.

Attack away, I will just grin.

Kit

 

[rizen1]

I always tell my friends tell me when I'm wrong, not sure if I'll listen but if you love me you would tell me. On this site I encourage others to let me know my errors using scripture and not an emotional response. Emotional responses are annoying to me, it's hard to respond when someone got distracted and made the topic about themselves. A person who is easily offended is not ready for meat conversations and sometimes, well most of the times it's impossible to battle meat with milk.

I often leave the thread. I believe it's hard for some to not have the last word.
Honest conversations are never wrong, but conversations in flesh and pride is fruitless. Now this thread is not about debating (not acceptable ) but questioning what is acceptable correction.

I do observe people claiming to be personally attacked when they weren't. Or members ganging up on another currently debating their friend, supporting the attack claim. When you step back remove your emotions and opinions from the conversation you see the accused attacker is justified in their correction.

Personal attack vs Correction

A personal attack would be me stepping out of the conversation and saying something irrelevant like " that's why your cat has 2 legs and a short tail and your face is ugly ." Mind you the topic is about tithing.

A personal attack is not someone telling you your wrong. A personal attack is not someone correcting you in love. True correction at the end of the day will offend, the truth has power, the truth exposes.

We need to draw a line, write up a definition of what a personal attack is. People are so sensitive these days you disagree with them, they take it personal and you make their black list. It's evident, they follow member A in every conversation trying to prove them wrong because member A attack their doctrine. You can sense their resentment and I don't like that childishness. Don't carry your feelings from one thread to another, every conversation should be treated as new, we must love each other and respect each other. Some people do not like open rebuke so do it in a private. We've been around each other long enough to know how to communicate with each other. If we hold resentment towards members we rob ourselves from learning something from him/her.

Proverb 15:1 A soft answer turneth away fury; but a grievous word stirreth up anger.

Our delivery is important when correcting each other.

But at the end of the day fools don't like wisdom. I've been a fool from time to time and it takes humility to say that. Discernment is needed for us to distinguish
1)the cries of a sensitive person saying they are being personally attack when in all truth it's their pride being attacked.

2)person who is being attack and the evidence shows the attacker lashing out with irrelevant things, name calling, straying from the topic.

Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words. Proverbs 23:9

Proverbs 1:7 says, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."


Again we know each other long enough to have fruitful conversation. If everyone for one day would put aside their truths and seek to find God's truth, we'd have less cases of people crying they are being personally attacked. Conversations would be approached hoping to learn something, but when you have people who already believe they know it all figths break out, egos are seen and the conversation is all about being right and no longer about truth.

Pride and flesh, is the enemy in all our conversations.

Only a humble man/woman can boldly say verse 5 and mean it.


Psalm 141:4-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing,
To practice wicked works
With men who work iniquity;
And do not let me eat of their delicacies.
5 Let the righteous strike me;
It shall be a kindness.
And let him rebuke me;
It shall be as excellent oil;
Let my head not refuse it.

 

[Fraction]

There is a difference between letting someone know they could possibly or are in error than attacking.

Letting someone know they are wrong.

Example One: Someone claims that there were only four days in the seven day process of creation written of in Genesis. Now, anyone who has read Genesis knows it is a seven day process. So how do we handle this situation?

1. Find out why the poster actually believes what they do.
2. Ask for scripture proving their theories.
3. Claim that they are in fact in error, and post scriptures to prove it.

This situation is actually a hard case, in which something probably wasn't misunderstood, but something wasn't told correctly or something was skipped.

Example Two: Someone claims that a certain bible verse that isn't precisely as straight forward as John 3:16 means something, but to the reader it means something else. This is the most common issue that I have seen on TJ, and it is everywhere. So what can we do in this situation?

1. Find out why the poster actually believes what they do.
2. Ask for them to explain in great detail about the scripture or idea posted.
3. Ask them to provide scripture (if possible) that could support their belief even further. Also ask for them to explain how they got to their conclusion, yet again about new scripture.
4. Agree or agree to disagree, unless it is a highly dangerous issue. (EX. If someone is trying to teach VERY false teachings)

Example Three: Someone has a personal opinion about a topic. This has become a huge problem on TJ. Some things cannot be supported by scripture on either side of an opinion about something. Even though that people may attempt to do so, said scripture might mean something different to someone else. So how exactly do we handle person opinions?

1. Find out why the poster actually believes what they do.
2. Ask them to provide scripture to support their beliefs, if any exist.
3. Agree or agree to disagree.

All of these examples apply to direct responses to another poster. They automatically assume that the responder has already stated their own fact, opinion, view, or belief.

Attacking

Attacking is completely different than correcting someone else or trying to help. Things like sarcasm, name calling, insulting, bullying, etc etc have NO PLACE in correcting. In attacking they are obvious. Attacking isn't merely an assault on someones view, but also them as a person as well. It is impossible to have ONE without THE OTHER.

Example One: Attacks of Ignorance are widely known. This occurs when one person directly jumps on another person without knowing much information at all. This not only appeals to peoples opinions and views, but to topics, groups, items, hobbies, etc etc. This is a popular concept, not only on TJ, but in the entire world.

Example Two: Attacks of the defensive are also very popular. This happens when someone states their opinion which causes someone else to FEEL challenged. (It also occurs when directly challenged) No matter how much people like to deny it, most people are offended when someone doesn't agree with them.

Example Three: Attacks of passion are also common. This is when someone attacks something or someone when they don't agree with it or them. When they directly challenge the person or topic aggressively.

Like I mentioned before, correcting and helping are MUCH different than attacking. We can handle all attacks the same way, simply calm down and don't do it. When we are attacked, it's better to just ignore that person altogether or try to calm them down and make peace instead of a direct assault back in their direction.

------------------------

I find it funny to see that the posters in this thread (including myself) are GUILTY of attacking. Whether it be through sarcasm, playing stupid for humors sake, name calling, insulting of intelligence, and so many more. I am not judging anyone, but a lot of people on this forum handle things the wrong way. Everyone would gain more in all areas if all of the attacking (in ALL forms) halted. Life is hard enough without attacking or insulting your allies under the same exact banner.

 

[gdemoss]

Thank you all, indeed, for your well thought out responses. I enjoyed reading each and every response.

Gary

 

[Miss Elly]

Baby Bottles

On personal attacks, it makes me think of God's baby nursery with a bunch of babies crying or sucking their thumbs.

Just about every time, the spirit of God will work on folks if you will let it. I had a very good friend named Donna, but she and I often argued about our beliefs. She was United Pentecostal and I was Undemoninational. One day I said, I feel we are grieving the Holy Spirit about our arguing. She grabbed me and hugged me with tears. Now I know you are saved she said. The Holy Spirit just told me the same thing! She said, well I don't know how you can be saved, but I know you are! You don't get baptized the same way I do, but you are saved. I said Donna, it doesn't matter if you are baptized in Jesus name or in the name of the trinity! It's just a preference and anyhow we are baptized in water in obedience to the Lord. Jesus is God, God does have 3 persons in the trinity, so we are all praying to the same Lord, whether we undestand it all or not.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Very good suggestions everyone.
I would also like to suggest personally remembering how many times each of us has had to lay a doctrine that we once held dear to rest.
Some error dies harder than others,I have had to change my position several times after being presented with evidence that I was not on solid ground.I think it would be arrogant to believe I have it all down finally.

In many subjects in life I feel as if I start out an expert until I start to learn that I didn't know enough to know what I didn't know and by the time I know as much as the real experts I am totally confused.
This has occurred with my understanding of scripture,electricity and women to name a few.

 

[Brother Mike]

So long doctrine

I would also like to suggest personally remembering how many times each of us has had to lay a doctrine that we once held dear to rest.

I have several of my Doctrines buried here at Talk Jesus.

 

[jiggyfly]

You and I both Mike, you can tell by reading the posts of anyone who has been here for a couple of years or more and grown in the Lord. I am a good example, things we used to believe but now we know differently. Praise God we are growing.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

You and I both Mike, you can tell by reading the posts of anyone who has been here for a couple of years or more and grown in the Lord. I am a good example, things we used to believe but now we know differently. Praise God we are growing

I see what your saying here and I even feel as though this might be a fulfillment of prophecy.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Before the internet studying was tedious and you had to borrow books or go to libraries.The internet made studying easier and the ability to test your interpretations in a forum like this make it way easier to spot error.
I have been here for less than a year and I believe this forum has saved me years of wild goose chasing.
I am also starting to see why the church is so splintered and that there is a body gaining knowledge and sharpening each other into more and more of a living being like in the valley of the dry bones..