Once saved can we lose our salvation??
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David, you are not listening.I said that the injunction from the Jerusalem council regards sexual morality came from the law of Moses, not the Ten Commandments. The council were discussing the law of Moses David 777. Why? Because there was intense pressure from some Jewish converts to circumcise Gentile converts. Sexual immoraltiy is frequently mentioned in the law of Moses, not the Ten Commandments (except of course for the seventh commandment, if you are inclined to believe that adultery is immoral).. The Ten Commandments were never an issue within the early church. No-one debated whether or not people should steal, worship idols, commit adultery, lie, covet, kill, honour parents, remove the sacredness from the Lord's name, and you know something else David, they didn't even debate whether they should keep the Lord's holy Sabbath day. And why not? Because there was no-one in the early church theologically challenged enough or brazen enough to suggest any such change in any of those commandments. The complete absence of any debate in the scriptures regarding any of those commandments clearly shows there was a general acceptance of the Law of God as being completely pertinent and relevant to the NT Christian walk. I have asked this before, and unsurprisingly you avoided answering me but I will ask again.
Where in the scriptures are the protestations from the Jewish legalists , that is the very same ones who protested loud and long re circumcision,regarding the necessity for the Gentile converts to honour the Sabbath?
Those protests David are completely absent.Why? Because the Gentile converts were honouring the Sabbath in precisley the same way and on the same day as those legalists. (See Acts 13:42-44; 18:4
They had no complaints. Not so however with the law of Moses. Circumcision in particular was a constant point of controversy, as well as the annual sabbaths which pointed forward to Christ's passion.That is the reason why the council advised the new Christians to abstain from sexual immorality, eating blood, and food sacrificed to idols. Why those specifically? Because it was in those areas that Gentiles had the greatest difficulty. It was in those areas that they found their greatest challenge. They were traditional problems within Gentile communities, particularly within their temple rites and practices. Do you seriously believe David that God is more concerned over the issue of your diet and rare steak than your relationship with your neighbour's wife?
Member
Hello brakelite.
Your protest that I did not answer the question you asked.
I thought the answer was obvious and did not need a reply.
Here is the question;
"Where in the scriptures are the protestations from the Jewish legalists ,
that is the very same ones who protested loud and long re circumcision,
regarding the necessity for the Gentile converts to honour the Sabbath?"
As you are well aware brakelite the ten are included in the
"law of Moses", hence the sabbath is included in the "law".
No reason for it to be mentioned, nor for any particular law
to be mentioned.
Acts 15 states that circumcision and the law of Moses was
the point of contention. That is why the debate took place,
that is why the apostles met, to decide this issue.
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up,
saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to
observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)
Does a Gentile convert have to become a Jew to be saved?
This is implied by the call for "circumcision" elsewhere
in the New Testament. It was not referring to the simple
physical process but always membership to Israel. It
always inferred the law of Moses.
Circumcision was the instruction God gave Abraham,
the father of the Hebrews, part of the Abraham covenant.
Circumcision was contained within the law of Moses.
It was a sign of membership to the Jewish way of life.
It was everything to the Jews, no one was greater than Abraham!
Circumcision means alliance to both covenants!!
Does a Gentile convert have to become a Jew to be saved?
Jesus was Jewish, Jesus obeyed the law of Moses, Jesus was the
messiah. Obviously brakelite, a Gentile must become a Jew.
You must be circumcised brakelite or your belief is in vain.
Do I need to say more, it is so obvious, how can a person
be saved who does not live as a Jew?
This was the claim the Christian Pharisees made (Acts 15:5).
The claim for the sabbath (all law) was contained simply in the
request of the Pharisees for "circumcision".
The answer in contained in (Acts 15), it says it all brakelite.
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you
no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things
sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication;
if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
The Gentiles were not given commandments, laws or words.
To "abstain" is not a commandment, law or word.
Not all Gentile nations had issues with "eating things
sacrificed to idols" brakelite. Your argument is absurd.
It is the reverse of what is written. Peter was placating
both sides, the Pharisees and the Gentiles. If the
Gentiles did not eat like dogs then the Jews would
not be upset. Three of these rules were diet related.
For the sake of the Jews no less.
"No greater burden", just a few simple rules to follow.
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon
you no greater burden than these essentials:
These rules were the essentials!!!
God had already decided that the Gentiles were heirs and
that was without any Mosaic law. No wonder this was a
revelation. God had given the Gentiles the Holy Spirit.
the seal of membership. They were already saved and
the Jewish apostles knew this.
Your protest that I did not answer the question you asked.
I thought the answer was obvious and did not need a reply.
Here is the question;
"Where in the scriptures are the protestations from the Jewish legalists ,
that is the very same ones who protested loud and long re circumcision,
regarding the necessity for the Gentile converts to honour the Sabbath?"
As you are well aware brakelite the ten are included in the
"law of Moses", hence the sabbath is included in the "law".
No reason for it to be mentioned, nor for any particular law
to be mentioned.
Acts 15 states that circumcision and the law of Moses was
the point of contention. That is why the debate took place,
that is why the apostles met, to decide this issue.
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up,
saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to
observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)
Does a Gentile convert have to become a Jew to be saved?
This is implied by the call for "circumcision" elsewhere
in the New Testament. It was not referring to the simple
physical process but always membership to Israel. It
always inferred the law of Moses.
Circumcision was the instruction God gave Abraham,
the father of the Hebrews, part of the Abraham covenant.
Circumcision was contained within the law of Moses.
It was a sign of membership to the Jewish way of life.
It was everything to the Jews, no one was greater than Abraham!
Circumcision means alliance to both covenants!!
Does a Gentile convert have to become a Jew to be saved?
Jesus was Jewish, Jesus obeyed the law of Moses, Jesus was the
messiah. Obviously brakelite, a Gentile must become a Jew.
You must be circumcised brakelite or your belief is in vain.
Do I need to say more, it is so obvious, how can a person
be saved who does not live as a Jew?
This was the claim the Christian Pharisees made (Acts 15:5).
The claim for the sabbath (all law) was contained simply in the
request of the Pharisees for "circumcision".
The answer in contained in (Acts 15), it says it all brakelite.
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you
no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things
sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication;
if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”
The Gentiles were not given commandments, laws or words.
To "abstain" is not a commandment, law or word.
Not all Gentile nations had issues with "eating things
sacrificed to idols" brakelite. Your argument is absurd.
It is the reverse of what is written. Peter was placating
both sides, the Pharisees and the Gentiles. If the
Gentiles did not eat like dogs then the Jews would
not be upset. Three of these rules were diet related.
For the sake of the Jews no less.
"No greater burden", just a few simple rules to follow.
28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon
you no greater burden than these essentials:
These rules were the essentials!!!
God had already decided that the Gentiles were heirs and
that was without any Mosaic law. No wonder this was a
revelation. God had given the Gentiles the Holy Spirit.
the seal of membership. They were already saved and
the Jewish apostles knew this.
Member
Also brakelite, a very important point that you seemed
to have missed. When I asked you where in the ten
commandments was sexual immorality mentioned.
You answered that it was not in the ten apart from
adultery. You stated that it was contained in the
law of Moses.
So in (Acts 15) Peter is instructing the Gentiles
to not only follow the ten commandments but
also additional laws apart from the ten commandments.
This is what you would have me beleive brakelite.
Gentiles are in effect under the law in its entirety?
Not only the ten laws + dietry laws + sexual laws
+ synagogue attendence. Well we may as well be
circumcised brakelite and go the whole hog.
And you claim that I am theologically challeged?
The answer is written in (Acts 15) brakelite.
We Gentiles were given no laws (commandments).
We were specifically told to abstain from sexual
immorality, this is not a law or a commandment.
To "abstain" is not a "law" brakelite!!!
No law was cited, not the ten, not the law of Moses.
How could the apostles quote any law to the Gentiles.
The apostles were not theological challenged, they
knew the whole law was given to Israel and Israel only.
Gentiles had nothing to do with any of the laws of Moses.
To put the Gentiles under any of the laws was placing
a yoke around their necks. To give them just one law meant
they had to give the Gentiles all the laws. It is written
brakelite that the Gentiles were only ever
given four basic instructions by the apostles.
Why are the ten commandments absent?
They are Jewish law brakelite, surely you have
read Leviticus. If you have one law you have
them all. To the Jews all law are commandments.
That is why they questioned Jesus about the
greatest of the commandments.
If I was you brakelite I would do some very serious
study in these areas. You may find yourself in very
serious trouble with God himself. You have a
theology that the New Testament defies.
to have missed. When I asked you where in the ten
commandments was sexual immorality mentioned.
You answered that it was not in the ten apart from
adultery. You stated that it was contained in the
law of Moses.
So in (Acts 15) Peter is instructing the Gentiles
to not only follow the ten commandments but
also additional laws apart from the ten commandments.
This is what you would have me beleive brakelite.
Gentiles are in effect under the law in its entirety?
Not only the ten laws + dietry laws + sexual laws
+ synagogue attendence. Well we may as well be
circumcised brakelite and go the whole hog.
And you claim that I am theologically challeged?
The answer is written in (Acts 15) brakelite.
We Gentiles were given no laws (commandments).
We were specifically told to abstain from sexual
immorality, this is not a law or a commandment.
To "abstain" is not a "law" brakelite!!!
No law was cited, not the ten, not the law of Moses.
How could the apostles quote any law to the Gentiles.
The apostles were not theological challenged, they
knew the whole law was given to Israel and Israel only.
Gentiles had nothing to do with any of the laws of Moses.
To put the Gentiles under any of the laws was placing
a yoke around their necks. To give them just one law meant
they had to give the Gentiles all the laws. It is written
brakelite that the Gentiles were only ever
given four basic instructions by the apostles.
Why are the ten commandments absent?
They are Jewish law brakelite, surely you have
read Leviticus. If you have one law you have
them all. To the Jews all law are commandments.
That is why they questioned Jesus about the
greatest of the commandments.
If I was you brakelite I would do some very serious
study in these areas. You may find yourself in very
serious trouble with God himself. You have a
theology that the New Testament defies.
Member
So David am I understanding this correctly? You are saying a Gentile DOES need to be physically circumcised and become a Jew in order to be saved?
I only ask because you ask the questions, but as they are one word answers, I wonder why the superfluous wording?
Member
Well stan53, if you selectively quote then it sure appears that way.
Sorry stan53, a Gentile does NOT have to align with the law of Moses
to be saved. Gentiles as a group were grafted in to the tree of life.
Gentiles were not grafted into Judaism.
I was referring to the meaning of "circumcision" in the New Testament usage.
It was not referring to the physical process only, but to the adherence
to the two old covenants. Circumcision has no meaning outside this
framework.
Member
Good enough, thanks.
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