once saved, always saved?

[farout]

sorry, but there's at least once case in the old testament where a prophet of God was sent to challenge some false prophets.
one of them remarked upon realizing his error "how did the Spirit of God go from me to speak to you?!" also, the rest of that chapter is rather disturbing because a similar prophecy has been spoke to the same effect, that God will strike the false shepherds but not before putting a lying and defiling spirit in their mouths.
1Kings 22:24

also, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two separate people. receiving the Holy Spirit is the same as being married to a person, who you receive, in your physical body, which is, the temple of the Lord. when the Holy Spirit tells you to lay hands on someone and heal them... this is in addition to Jesus who may be directing your life right now.
so when you sin and you feel like crap.. but neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit ask you why... i'll urge you to pray about who it is that makes you feel that way.
i would suggest that it is your own spirit that convicts you and makes you feel defiled when you sin.
Jesus or the Holy Spirit will likely challenge you about it later.

now for the purposes of full disclosure... Jesus talks to me a lot. he also sends other spirits who sometimes don't give me their names to speak to me, and the archangel Michael told me something on the Sabbath couple weeks back. the Holy Spirit had enough of me a while ago, so that prophetic gift of miraculous healing that i didn't use because i had no faith and some other reasons won't be available until i fix myself, but it is true that He never left, but it does feel like it...

i have no doubt that most of God's sheep in america never receive the Holy Spirit, but i will refrain from casting judgement on western churches.

I am not permitted to simply walk up to someone who i know the Lord knows and point out Luke 11:13 or similar passages because i feel like it. they have to ask.

"“Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?”"
funny you mention this Hekuran because the thought crossed my mind on sunday at 10 am pacific time

If someone prophecies in Jesus name, but he is a false prophet, but the sheep have enough faith and God makes it happen for their sake, what then?
can the other gifts be used in the same manner?
i would suggest it is possible.

eldon: The Holy Spirit did become our Seal and reside in us until Jesus left to return to the Father. In the OT the Holy Spirit did no reside in believers.

The Holy Spirit and Jeus Christ are NOT people as such. Jesus was fully human by being born of woman, and fully God by the fact the Spirit od God plaved Jesus in the womb of Mary. The Holy Spirit is a Seal thet resides in us. Not in my opinion like being married, but the Holy Spirit is Holy and part of the God Head. No one understands the Trinity, that is what Deut. 29:29 speaks of that somethings belong to God and we just can't explain it, the trinity being one major example of this.

I believe that the two major way God speaks today are by His WORD, the Bible, and by the Holy Spriti. Now I beleiev Jesus can speak but it is not as frequent as by reading His Word. That's not saying Jesus does not speak, just He speaks far more by the Holy Spirit know what the Lord's will is. I have no idea about Michael the Angel.

If some Has surrendered to Jesus Christ as Lord and been born again, the Holy Spirit is in them as a Seal of Jesus's promise. It makes no difference if they live in Bolivia, South America, or Canada, or Egypt, the place we live has nothing to do with it.

Never, never does the Lord share His with Glory ! If some one who is a phoney false teacher preaches Jesus Christ and some get genuinely saved, truth is truth no matter who proclaimes it. Right on ?

I believe in many gifts of the Holy Spirit. Let me say also unless a person is right with the Lord then the use of gifts by thet backslid person is very very limited, and maybe totally restricted altogether until the person confess's their sin and repents. One example I knew a person that was invery serious sexual sin and still is for the last six plus years. They keep saying they are saved because God knows my heart. Well that does not line up with what Scripture says.

It makes no difference what Ithink or someone else thinks It's what the Bibles says, no if's no but's or doubts about it. That's where I come from, if the Bible says one thing and I may think another way, guess who is wrong? Scripture is ALWAYS RIGHT ! Blessings eldon.


farout

 

[farout]

Like Dutch says, and we can walk away or drift slowly away and miss lead due to our sinful nature.
Dear revbrad i say nothing of you your self but of the doctrine of OSAS.
According to the Spirit i know i am saved but i don't go around stating it, as satan would love that i boast.
I am not on about individuals but as christian people in whole, don't be misled into thinking you are saved as a one time advent. is that wrong ? i see it all the time and it breeds ignorance. and i am not talking of you at all dear revbrad but the subject.
Christ never said OSAS he could of said so easily but he did not.
The way i see it most people love OSAS because it put their fears to rest and they rebel thinking that one is trying to drag them down but in fact we are trying to lift them, up for crying out loud.
Could OSAS be a form of idol, as i have seen people push it full on and just runaround like a chook with it's head choped off.

Puddleglum: Brother May I suggest you read the Gospel of John completely. Pay specia; attention to John chapters 10, 17, 24, 25, 26. After reading this wonderful book lets talk about it once more. Pray for the Lord to speak to yeu as you read. I believe this will quicken your spirit and then you will better be able to state your proof as to why you do or don't believe in OSAS. Blessings.


farout

 

[farout]

Do not be deceived!

OSAS is a sneaky covert LIE of the devil!

OSAS = Slippery slope into more lasviciousness

Genesis 2:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (<--- hear the serpent speak a OSAS LIE)

Ezekiel 18:
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

BUT

1 John 1:
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

King David lost his salvation when he outright murdered and was in adultery (at that time) but by Gods Grace he repented and was cleansed again!

Do not listen to: itching ear preaching feal good osas: "no matter what you do" "feel good sin all you want" "it doesn't matter as your future sins supposedly are already forgiven in advance" "Gods Grace is unlimited even if ye do not repent" LIE!

2 Corinthians 7:
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Perseverance of the saints is also a form of OSAS (= if saved always saved) and is false too!, as so many things can happen on your walk that could catch you off-guard! Be sure that your salvation is guaranteed by God if ye keep walking with Him / endure till the end. But don't you walk away from it YOURSELF (it will be all yourself to blame and not God!) by for instance: taking the mark of the beast, denying The Lord Jesus Christ, following and being lead away after the error of the wicked, apostacize, falling from grace, blaspheme the Holy Ghost, if you forgive not others, etc God forbid! and so you better be real careful!

God is Merciful yes! but don't you mock Him!

Galatians 6:
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Dutch: The dialogue of OSAS is no reason to disfellowship or get angry about. I believe in OSAS, but not as a platform to base a sinful lifestyle on at all. Eternal Security is not an excuse to sin and God will forgive me, so I can do it again. However, if I think I can sin and loose my salvation today, and repent a few weeks later and be saved again that too is incorrect. Infact there is a good amount of support that If a person can loose their salvation they can NOT regain it. How do you deal with that?

I know that this debate can go on and on, but be respectful about it ! OSAS is not a smeaky covery lie of the devil ! If I said the samething but backwards that would be rude, crude, and very offensive. Please re read the how we are to post, you are close to crossing over the line. If dialogue is to take place then kindness and respect are the order of the day brother. Blessings.


farout

 

[revbrad]

Like Dutch says, and we can walk away or drift slowly away and miss lead due to our sinful nature.
Dear revbrad i say nothing of you your self but of the doctrine of OSAS.
According to the Spirit i know i am saved but i don't go around stating it, as satan would love that i boast.
I am not on about individuals but as christian people in whole, don't be misled into thinking you are saved as a one time advent. is that wrong ? i see it all the time and it breeds ignorance. and i am not talking of you at all dear revbrad but the subject.
Christ never said OSAS he could of said so easily but he did not.
The way i see it most people love OSAS because it put their fears to rest and they rebel thinking that one is trying to drag them down but in fact we are trying to lift them, up for crying out loud.
Could OSAS be a form of idol, as i have seen people push it full on and just runaround like a chook with it's head choped off.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I apologize.

I have just been trying to make the point that it is how we live after salvation that matters. There is too much bickering and seperation in the body.

Give your heart and life to Christ then live according to the Word and the Spirit and call it what you will.

 

[revbrad]

Brad: Question 1. No it will not send anyone to hell. Only those who reject Christ go there. 2. It matters neither either way. 3. No it only means that you understand Scripture differently. This issue does not disfellowship in any way what so ever. I used to think that I could support either side until I did some very long studying on the subject.

This subject should not cause either way of thinking give reason to argue or hurt feelings. Blessings,


farout.

Amen and Amen.....My point exactly.

 

[B-A-C]

Amen and Amen.....My point exactly.

After all the debate, it seems the two sides aren't so far apart. On one side we have the choice to leave God if we choose to.
On the other side, God makes all the choices, and yet, if someone walks away from God, they say they were never saved in the first place.
So how can you believe in "eternal security" if it's possible that you aren't "saved in the first place"? There are people like Ray Boltz, Ted Haggard, and others who did the work of God for decades,
and then at some point in their life decided to walk away. Some turn to homosexuality, adultery, alcohol, drugs, or whatever. The Calvinists say, "well they were never saved in the first place".
If that's true, he used them to change people lives despite their sinful standing. Also if that's true, how can anyone know they are saved for sure? I'm sure if you would have asked them ten years
ago, they would have assured you that they were saved.

As someone asked earlier, can you truly be saved and still live in sin? Living in sin is different from the sins we don't chose to do. Living in sin, is willful sin that we do choose to do.
On the other hand, if we have the choice on our own to choose God, and choose to walk away at some point in the future, (oh, I believe he will do everything he can to persuade us to stay)
then we at least have the security of saying "I am walking in Christ right now, I am saved right now".

 

[farout]

After all the debate, it seems the two sides aren't so far apart. On one side we have the choice to leave God if we choose to.
On the other side, God makes all the choices, and yet, if someone walks away from God, they say they were never saved in the first place.
So how can you believe in "eternal security" if it's possible that you aren't "saved in the first place"? There are people like Ray Boltz, Ted Haggard, and others who did the work of God for decades,
and then at some point in their life decided to walk away. Some turn to homosexuality, adultery, alcohol, drugs, or whatever. The Calvinists say, "well they were never saved in the first place".
If that's true, he used them to change people lives despite their sinful standing. Also if that's true, how can anyone know they are saved for sure? I'm sure if you would have asked them ten years
ago, they would have assured you that they were saved.

As someone asked earlier, can you truly be saved and still sin? Living in sin is different from the sins we don't chose to do. Living in sin, is willful sin that we do choose to do.
On the other hand, if we have the choice on our own to choose God, and choose to walk away at some point in the future, (oh, I believe he will do everything he can to persuade us to stay)
then we at least have the security of saying "I am walking in Christ right now, I am saved right now".

B.A.C.: Billy Graham had a very close friend Rev. Templeton who preached and managed to convience everyone he was a solid believer. But when he openly rejected Jesus in public and told Billy very truthfully he just could not believe because of those killed in war that were very innocente, how could a God do such a thing? Billy remained a friend. However, even on his death bed he did not recant. So even those in minisrty are sometimes not genuine believers, and have never been genuinely saved.

It is not just clearly huge sins that all of us would call real bad sins, it is sins like greed, not being thankful, pride, all these are signs of questionable faith, in other words false faith. Can we sin after becoming born again? Yes we can and do. Ever sware word, lie's, stealing when we taks something, no matter how small it is ? Ever think lustful thoughts, ever stare at a picture of of a woman on TV, or a picture in a catalogue, or some add in a paper that was rather lustful ? We just cant avoide some exposure in the most unlikely places. Some people cheat a little on their taxes, report too many miles on being repaid for expences on business. I have yet to know of anyone who says they live a sinless life after being saved. 1st John I:9&10 make it clear we do sin.

Have any idea who many in ministry have confessed to sexual sins, and after repenting and a time of restoration and accountability return to ministry ? I wont say how I think about this, I do not want to offend anyone who is recovering from such a sad situation. The numbers are very large. We are told in Scripture to learn how to control our lustful thoughts so they don't turn into actually sin.

My final thoughts are this. A genuine believer most likely hardly even thinks about what sin can I do and get away with it because I can't loose my salvation. IF a person is surrendered to Jesus Christ this ONSAS is something they can defend as a Doctrine from the Bible. I personally believe it is very importand that we can be assured that we do have Eternal Security in Jesus Christ and we can completely trust The (WORD of the LORD (the Bible) from cover to cover. I take what Jesus said very literally "No one can pluck us out of His hand" I trust the saving and holding ability of the LORD. Just by the LORD creating the Earth and our solar system, which no one can fuly grasp, them for the HOLY All Mighty Powerful GOD can surely hold me in HIS hand.

Perhaps eternal security is like this old example. When the egyptian slaves (Gods people) were told to put the blood of the lamb on their door posts, some went to bed with full faith the death angel would pass over them and they slept well. When morning came they praised the Lord. Other's put the blood of the lamb on the door posts, but they were scared, and did not sleep at al,l as they were very afraid, but when morning came they were also praising the LORD.

Lets say the first group of people had eternal security, the second group were those who did not believe in eternal Security but questioned if they had lost their faith. Perhaps this is over simplefiled, but maybe it will help.This subject has been debated for centuries, and won't be settled here. Blessings B.A.C.


farout

 

[revbrad]

After all the debate, it seems the two sides aren't so far apart. On one side we have the choice to leave God if we choose to.
On the other side, God makes all the choices, and yet, if someone walks away from God, they say they were never saved in the first place.
So how can you believe in "eternal security" if it's possible that you aren't "saved in the first place"? There are people like Ray Boltz, Ted Haggard, and others who did the work of God for decades,
and then at some point in their life decided to walk away. Some turn to homosexuality, adultery, alcohol, drugs, or whatever. The Calvinists say, "well they were never saved in the first place".
If that's true, he used them to change people lives despite their sinful standing. Also if that's true, how can anyone know they are saved for sure? I'm sure if you would have asked them ten years
ago, they would have assured you that they were saved.

As someone asked earlier, can you truly be saved and still live in sin? Living in sin is different from the sins we don't chose to do. Living in sin, is willful sin that we do choose to do.
On the other hand, if we have the choice on our own to choose God, and choose to walk away at some point in the future, (oh, I believe he will do everything he can to persuade us to stay)
then we at least have the security of saying "I am walking in Christ right now, I am saved right now".

Bottom Line.........Get saved and live it! Call it what you will.

 

[DutchChristian]

Perhaps eternal security is like this old example. When the egyptian slaves (Gods people) were told to put the blood of the lamb on their door posts, some went to bed with full faith the death angel would pass over them and they slept well. When morning came they praised the Lord. Other's put the blood of the lamb on the door posts, but they were scared, and did not sleep at al,l as they were very afraid, but when morning came they were also praising the LORD.

Dear Farout,

Your explanation is a bit off, and here is why:

They obeyed The LORD and IF they had not done as The LORD Had Required for them to do; as He Had Commanded through Moses -then they would have been taken by death too! As there were certain requirements to be met in doing so...

Let us look at some of them:

-Your lamb shall be without blemish
-Kill it in the evening
-And take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein you will eat.
-Eat the flesh at night
-Let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
-Eat with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.

And let us not forget what The LORD Said also later (to completely show that even afterwards they had to keep obeying The LORD, not a one time only obedience! it is ongoing and as you go you must keep walking in the faith):

Exodus 12:
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

They had to eat seven days unleavened bread. (see again another condition (not unconditional!) and this is after they got saved from the destroying that went on and passed over)

So back again: those that did not meet the requirement: "And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it." would have died also! because the death would have entered through their doorpost as there would have not been the required and proper blood on the doorpost as was required: (for instance: the blood of a mere bull or turtledove would not have helped) it had to be exactly according as The LORD GOD Had Commanded.

Now again.. what IF they did not obey the requirements and The Command of The LORD (and would have not put that blood on the doorpost)? They would have been smitten!

So we see here that there in this example in my opinion is actually no basis for an "unconditional" OSAS as:

1. There was an ACTION to take a requirement just like today we need to keep walking in Faith and obedience! (IF ye continue in the faith.. : Col. 1:23, John 8:31)
2. They had to stay INSIDE the house, if someone would have went OUTSIDE of the house during that night they would have been instantly killed!
3. Afterwards after this event they had to eat only unleavened bread for seven days and no leavened bread was allowed inside of their houses because if they ate of it they would have been cut off.

And so ALSO we nowadays must continue in the faith and HAVE TO STAY INSIDE THE LORD Jesus Christ Who IS Also The Ark and The Blood similar as The Blood Sprinkled Save House so to speak and stay inside and you will be kept Save but if you move outside of the doorpost of the ARK (same goes with ark of Noah) those that are outside will ALL perish, same with the doorpost blood sprinkled house over there ONLY those that met the certain requirements and did as The LORD Hath Commanded and thus stayed INSIDE and did as Moses told were kept Save.

Keep walking with The Lord! Let us all Surrender to Him daily.

John 15:
10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My Love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and Abide in His Love.

What are the "My commandments" mentioned?:

Mark 12:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

And some Scripture about retreating from the walk / faith:

Hebrews 10:
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, My Soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Draw back unto what?

DO NOT DRAW BACK YOURSELVES Keep inside The ARK keep inside The Lord Jesus Keep walking with Him and you will be Save!

Amen

And for those who think i am promoting legalism:

'Simple obedience to Gods Word is not works salvation!'

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the Gift of God:

God is Faithful o yes Amen and amen! But do not error yourself and walk out and away from the Save House The Lord Jesus Christ yourselves! Keep inside The Ark, keep inside The House(hold) of God that is Marked and put under The Blood of The Lord Jesus Christ!

Be Blessed,
dutch

 

[james1523]

After all the debate, it seems the two sides aren't so far apart. On one side we have the choice to leave God if we choose to.
On the other side, God makes all the choices, and yet, if someone walks away from God, they say they were never saved in the first place.
So how can you believe in "eternal security" if it's possible that you aren't "saved in the first place"? There are people like Ray Boltz, Ted Haggard, and others who did the work of God for decades,
and then at some point in their life decided to walk away. Some turn to homosexuality, adultery, alcohol, drugs, or whatever. The Calvinists say, "well they were never saved in the first place".
If that's true, he used them to change people lives despite their sinful standing. Also if that's true, how can anyone know they are saved for sure? I'm sure if you would have asked them ten years
ago, they would have assured you that they were saved.

Ted Haggard repented.This is evidence of his salvation, that he is a child of God. This puts him in the same category as King David who committed adultery and murder but was still saved. This is because the Holy Spirit never leaves nor forsakes one of His own.

 

[james1523]

On one side we have the choice to leave God if we choose to.

If you think you are that powerful to resist God like Jonah thought he was If you think your Heavenly Father who is more perfect than any earthly parent, will just let you run away from home and never pursue you and bring you back...

Ps 139:7 I can never escape from your Spirit! I can never get away from your presence! (NLT)

 

[james1523]

One only can grow in the Lord or fall away.
Now one can give you the Holy Spirit that only comes from the Lord. so we must be in tune to receive.
Once we start with the worldly works it goes no where.
The Holy Spirit can come on you and dwell in you but old mate Satan is hard work to to deal with as he will never give up never. and if you think you have won their is always the next day to do battle. Satan comes and again and again he never gives up and if one thinks he has won, you have lost.
Satan is very cunning and the most cunning of all.

Yes we must stir into flame the gift of the Holy Spirit within us. There is no doubt that we have a part to play. But at the end of the day satan is a defeated foe. Satan is actually a coward who flees from battle.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

And the Spirit within us is powerful
Isaiah 59:19 When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.

 

[james1523]

I believe there will be no one in heaven who should have been in hell and no one in hell who should have been in heaven. Yes God is that powerful and sovereign.
Not believing in once saved always saved is a symptom of not trusting in Christ as much as we could.
It is not fully realizing who God is - that He is completely in control and sovereign, and that He is I AM , all in all and everything.
It is not fully realizing who we are - that we are nothing but blades of grass here one day and gone the next (Ps 103:15).

This is no fault of ours. It is God who is the author and finisher of our faith. We may not fully trust in Christ because God has not matured us to that point yet.
But if we are honest with ourselves and with God, and allow Him to work in us, God brings us though some experiences of being outside our realm of control, like Job or Nebuchadnezzar.
Then we can learn some things:
He shows us that we are nothing and He is everything.
He shows us that He is sovereign and in control of all things (this is what calling Him 'Lord' implies).

Then we will come to the end of ourselves and put our trust fully in Him. Then we will put more trust in His ability to keep us than in our ability to remain.
Then we will believe in OSAS because we know who God is and who we are. This truth will set us free from our own self-efforts and strivings to maintain and keep "our salvation".

There are some underlying truths behind OSAS:
- Salvation is not for me , but by God, with God, in God, and for God.
- God is sovereign and in complete control of all things, every hair is numbered and no sparrow falls to the ground without God's knowledge and permission.
- When the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in a believer He comes to take ownership of the dwelling and to live as a permanent resident, not as a guest in a hotel.

 

[NetChaplain]

I need more scriptures which back up that this is not correct. For example you are saved, and believe in lord your saviour, go to church, read the bible but carry on living a habitual homosexual lifetsyle, sex out of wedlock, addiction to porn, drugs, alcohol, and just other sinful things that are forbidden.Are you still saved?

Hi Harvester - I believe one who lives in sin does not believe in the Lord Jesus, regardless the vehement profession. Concerning salvation, if it isn't eternal, it isn't salvation (Heb 5:9; Rom 11:29). True salvation (faith in Christ) isn't something one can walk away from, but one can walk away from a false profession of faith. If salvation isn't eternal, it's nothing, because that's the main point of its existence.

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[will]

I need more scriptures which back up that this is not correct. For example you are saved, and believe in lord your saviour, go to church, read the bible but carry on living a habitual homosexual lifetsyle, sex out of wedlock, addiction to porn, drugs, alcohol, and just other sinful things that are forbidden.Are you still saved?

Sister,

The fact that you are asking this question is a sign that you started to think about Spiritual things. That is good.
The problem here, is that the best answer to your question will not come from your fellow human beings. Want proof? take a look at how this thread developed. Fellow Christians arguing with equal fervor and zeal, exactly on two opposite sides. Now what?

Instead, the answer will be revealed to you by the Lord Himself as you grow in the Spirit (God's Holy Spirit, which means the growth is supernatural, not man-induced, otherwise man may claim the credit, be it your own self, or the one who "enlighten" you).

What to do in the meantime, then?

Read the Scriptures with a head empty of presumptions, and a heart that is expectant of the truth from God (like Mary at the Lord's feet, eager to learn). And you will get your answer. An answer that will satisfy you beyond anything you'd expected.

 

[clark thompson]

People we need to focus on our relationship with the Lord and He will guide us. Salvation is in one Man's hands and that Man is Christ. Christ wants all to come to Him.

 

[Glow]

But that leads to the question: If we can lose our salvation, then what's keeping us in pure faith and not a fearful, works-seeking lifestyle?

When the Lord says that no one can snatch us out of His hand, what do you think He means? I believe it is the very fact that we cannot lose our salvation that often leads believers (true believers) into loving God more for His wonderful work in us, and having greater joy for the eternal life that we know is awaiting us. (Of course, there are those who hear this and use it as a license for sin, but I don't believe they were truly saved in the first place if so).

I don't mean to speak for everyone, but I've noticed that those believers who believe salvation can be lost tend to try "doing" harder, instead of simply "trusting." They think that the things they do will earn them a right standing with God, when God loves unconditionally and "All our righeousnesses are like filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)

I also remember the scripture that says, "They went out from us because they were not of us." (1 John 2:19) It doesn't mean we lose our salvation. It means that those who left were never true Christians, or sheep, in the first place, but rather, goats.

 

[DutchChristian]

Hallelujah! Glory to GOD!

John 10:
28 And I give unto them eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My Hand.

Is a wonderful Promise from The Almighty Lord Himself Amen indeed Amen i sure love it, believe it and reading it makes me very happy

29 My Father, which Gave them Me, Is Greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's Hand.

But let us not forget the verse preceding before these wonderful verses, verse: 27 to fully understand this verse so that it will give us more understanding:

John 10:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:

Does that sound unconditional? Like as in: "Once you are in you will automatically make it even if i turn my back on The Lord Jesus?" Or: "Once i am saved i don't have to follow Jesus nor His Commandments. And John 14:21, John 15:10 honestly i really hate those verses and nor do i understand His Word because according to OSAS my favourite doctrine i can now follow after the world and it's wickedness o surely i may dwell in it's wickedness? because OSAS teaches i am going to heaven no matter what all is forgiven anyhow.." Or: "Hey even if you want to apostacize? i hate God now after several years i was once saved back in 2007 but now: hey now i love this world more then God i must still be good to go? o yes i believe i will go into heaven because Gods Love is unconditional and i kept my belief in OSAS"... God Forbid!

No...

John 10:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:

This verse speaks of the ones that follow The Lord Jesus: His sheep and they understand His voice and are His sheep, the saints: those are the ones that no man can pluck out of His Hand.

They are the ones that walk with Jesus and follow Him! And God Keeps them!

Now just a question in between, ask yourself this question:

Is simple obedience to Gods Word a works salvation?

hmmm......


Now on to some more Scripture:

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the Will of My Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy Name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Does that sound like OSAS to you?

1 Peter 1:
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I Am Holy.

And let us not forget:

2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 4:
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Jude 1:
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Don't walk away yourself!

2 Timothy 4:
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

OSAS and Calvinism is not true.

Luke 9:
23 And He said to them all, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Matthew 10:
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me.

Matthew 10:
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven.

OSAS is an unconditional no matter what you do, once you are saved you are forgiven no matter what LIE that even if you do not repent and become a drug addict porn watching bank robber and murderer you will supposedly still NEVER be able to lose it, not even if you turn your back and apostacize? (God forbid!) Now is that true? Can i spit God in His Face and to His Holy Commandments, not keep them at all but follow after my own pleasures more then God and love this world, and not forgive others and even with hatred towards God's people still make it into heaven? According to OSAS LIE you can....

BUT

Matthew 6:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Romans 8:
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

And i am not about works salvation (if you think that), i am saved by grace through faith!

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And God Keeps His own most assuredly o yes AMEN

But don't you yourself leave Him! Keep walking with The LORD!

And know that His Grace is not a license for sin! The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to die on the Cross so that we could continue to life a lifestyle of sin worldliness and continue to be friends of this world! We are called to be set apart and holy unto The LORD!

But OSAS LIE says you can never out-sin the grace of God, you are saved NO MATTER WHAT you do you are guaranteed of heaven even if you live like the devil, and lose your faith alltogether you will still be saved = LIE

And does that make common sense to you?

Of course not!

And look at the fierce ANGER of The LORD against sin!

1 Corinthians 10:
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

God hates sin so why would God want to accept OSAS (God forbid! forgive me of speaking so!) so that more sin would creep into many churches and houses?

Do not be deceived!

Galatians 6:
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Romans 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

God Bless you,
dutch

 

[DutchChristian]

Another example

Let me give you another example:

If you know the President of The United States, does that automatically mean that he also knows you by your name?

Example:

If one thinks to be a member of the Presidents personal staff and even professes to be one: is in great trouble and runs to the white house and standing in front of it's outside gate says: i know the President Help me Help me! i am in trouble, i know the President by name please call him now as i want in, because i am in great distress! (this man standing outside the gate yelling)

Someone of the security staff heard this poor man yelling because he spoke with such zeal and authoritatively and with such convincing attitude, that surely he must be a member of the white house too and so a staff member by exception called the President himself to come and look because this man was in such distress, seemingly knowing the President himself and a few moments later the President came out and looked from the window of the building at the seemingly to be "of his own staff, a member" who was standing outside yelling in great distress and the President said: "who are you? i do not know you get out of here!" and the President walked away.

The man soon standing outside was struck with great awe and complete unbelief and said: "surely this can't be so! o surely this must have been a mistake! i know you, dear President i even listened to you speak the other day! you know me i did all these things!" "this can't be so this must be wrong!"

But the gate kept closed... soon security came in and this man was quickly apprehended sent and put to jail.

Now to the 2nd example:

There was a certain man who was in distress he was in great trouble and he ran to the white house and stood at the gate, and he yelled and said: "i know the President by name get me in quickly for i am in great distress!" The top security came out and looked at this man and said maybe he is speaking the truth, let us ask the President, but lo and behold the President from the White House saw this and recognised this man and quickly said: "i know the man personally, quickly protect him give him all he needs and get him inside quickly and at once protect him i know him he is a faithfull member of the congress" And quickly many body guards and Armed Police came quickly and helped this man and brought him into immediate safety and carried him through the gates to the President and no sooner did The President also walk himself outside of the building to go ahead and meet him because the President knew him personally and by his name! To welcome him!

Think about this here mere example for a moment!

(This is a fictional story only for educational purposes)

This served just as an example so now we go back to The Scriptures and let us look at The BIBLE:


John 10:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My Hand.

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the Will of My Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

How do we get to be intimate with The LORD?

By faith by believing in The Lord Jesus Christ and you must be born again from Heaven!

Also, if you really Love The LORD....

John 14:
15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments.

21 He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.

Does that sound unconditional?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love Me, he will keep My Words: and My Father Will Love him, and We Will come unto him, and make Our Abode with him.

John 15:
10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My Love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and Abide in His Love.

See many in that day will say Lord Lord i know you Lord! Help me in! i surely know you!

But does The Lord Jesus know you, and do you follow Him? John 10:27 or are you a worker of iniquity? Do you keep following The Lord and His commandments or have you gone astray to the world and it's seemingly so to be pleasures and are you backslidden?

Do not make yourself a fool but: walk the walk in sincerity and holiness and let us all remember, me as well:

1 John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. (and not an unconditional form of Grace that OSAS covertly brings unawares)
4 He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth His Word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.
6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He Walked.

As long as you continue to keep walking in The Lord Yes your salvation is guaranteed to the uttermost, Hebrews 7:25! God Will keep you standing so keep the faith! (just do not abuse His Grace and turn it into a license for immorality that some think they are able because of the misunderstood and abused OSAS!) And if / maybe we slip up at times, but we shake of the dust and Keep walking with The KING!

1 Thessalonians 4:
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Jesus Christ is The Lord!

 

[B-A-C]

If you think you are that powerful to resist God like Jonah thought he was If you think your Heavenly Father who is more perfect than any earthly parent, will just let you run away from home and never pursue you and bring you back...

Ps 139:7 I can never escape from your Spirit! I can never get away from your presence! (NLT)

It's not abut being stronger than God. I am stronger than my wife, but if she wanted to leave, I wouldn't force her to stay. (there are laws against such things
God loves us, he wants us, but he doesn't force us to stay.

2 Thes 2:10; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2 Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2 Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

If you keep rejecting him, he will harden your heart and blind your eyes.
But God doesn't want anyone to die.

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.