On the Question of Man (Adam)

[jeremiah1five]

There is only ONE God.

When God first contemplated His Elect He contemplated them as "saved." He contemplated His Elect as holy and righteous. This is the only way God can see them for there is no sin in God, there is no death in God.

The Greek word "hamartia" is translated in the KJV as "sin" in the New Testament. Strong defines the word [#266] literally as, "missing the mark." What is the "mark?"
The glory of God.
God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged. There are only two Persons who can stand before a Holy God. They are: the Second Person of the Trinity and the Third Person of the Trinity, that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit, respectfully. Everything outside of God, outside of Trinity is sin, or "misses the mark" of the glory of God. There is only ONE God.

God cannot re-duplicate Himself. Scripture in Isaiah 42:8 states, "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..." The word "glory" is the Hebrew "kabod."
There is definition and meaning in Scripture of the translated words "loss" and "lost" as:
Genesis 31:39 "loss" [#2398] a primitive root; properly to miss; hence (figurative and general) to sin.
Numbers 6:12 "lost" [#5307] a primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitive or causative, literal or figurative). This word is translated as "fail" 118 times, "fall down" 25 times, "cast" 18 times, and other miscellaneous translations. It can also mean "mis-placed."

Back to Trinity. If in the Mind of God He contemplated His Elect as a holy and peculiar people and stopped there, then this would be the end of it.
Now, there is no real "book" of life for God, who is Spirit (Jn. 4:24), for He would not need a "book," and this is only a word to communicate in human terms a collection of items (such as words), or in the case in which it is used in Revelation 13:8, of "names" of God's Elect in a "book" of life of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. This book of life I take as a word to describe the Son and the names as those whom God had contemplated in His Mind as a "saved" (holy and righteous) people in Himself, names of a people the Father had given to the Son (Jn. 17:2, 6). But they are only names (this is where His foreknowledge of us first occurs and the word "foreknowledge" can only be used in the realm in which humans exist, that is, TIME. God exists in what can be called the "Eternal Now" as there is no past, present, or future in God. These elements are particular to the realm of TIME which He created).

And God did create. His plan is to put a body to those names in the "book" of life of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. So, God began to create space and matter (heaven and earth) and TIME in which to bring this contemplated people into existence outside Himself in order to at the "last day" bring us back into Himself into Trinity through the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. And if God was to create a body (man) in this realm and outside Himself, this creation would be "lost" of "mis-placed" for God is now in the process of preparing a body and bodies for those whose names were written by God in the book of life of the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. This would also mean that the man He is to create (and the men that would be born from this one man [and woman]), would find itself as created "sin" (fallen short of the glory of God), for God cannot reduplicate Himself, and He gives His glory to no one, and there is only ONE God. And if the above is true, then the issue now rests on this one question: How can a righteous God create an unrighteous being?
The answer has already been provided. There was a lamb slain before the foundation (creation) of the world.
This atonement allowed a righteous God to create an unrighteous being (man), and from this man continue to prepare bodies for those names in the book of life of the Lamb. This atonement would have had to been done in Trinity, for there is only ONE God and God is Self-Existing.

Man (Adam) was created "sin-ful" or "missing the mark" of the glory of God for God cannot re-duplicate Himself, and there is only ONE God. Man could not be created holy or righteous. Nor was he "innocent," for this is only a superficial word that misleads to make us think man (Adam) was "neutral." But it must also be true that sin does not come from that which is holy, that sin cannot come from that which is righteous. The "last Adam," Jesus Christ, proves this. He was sin-less. The reason of man's (Adam's) disobeying God in the garden was because man was disobedient. Doesn't the Law show/prove that we are sinners? The existence of a "Thou shalt not" (such as is found in the Mosaic Law) prove that we are sinners? Paul made this clear in:

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Some of my readers believe that the Law came after "the fall" or man's disobedience to God in eating from the forbidden tree in the garden. But that is my point. I make no distinction between the command of God and the law of God for they are one and the same. The law of God are His commands, and the commands of God are law. Paul says, "I had not known sin but by the law: for I had not known lust except the law said thou shalt not covet." Man was also under the law/command of God in the garden:

Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Man (Adam) had not known sin but by the law: for man (Adam) had not known disobedience except the law said thou shalt not eat of it!

As I put forward in this study, sin does not come from holy, nor does sin come from righteousness. The last Adam, Jesus Christ proved this. He was holy. He was righteous. He did not sin. Had man (Adam) been created holy and righteous (which would mean God re-duplicated Himself, gave His glory to another), then man (Adam) would not have disobeyed, but would have been as Christ, the last Adam, holy, righteous, sin-less. But man did disobey. He disobeyed because he was disobedient. He sinned ("missed the mark") because he was a sinner (created fallen short of the glory of God). He is not a sinner because he sinned.

Your thoughts?

 

[Fenn]

You say that Adam was created "sinful." Yet you also say that sin does not come from holy. If God is holy, then either sin can come from holy or Adam was not created sinful.

What leads you to believe that the lamb was slain before the creation of the world? If this is true, then why would Christ also need to die on Earth? Why would there be law in the first place? If there was already a sacrifice made, then would not God have offered the opportunity for salvation and freedom from the law earlier?

I believe that Adam was created without sin in God's image. He was also create with free will, thus the fall. I see sin as anything that separates you from God. Thus, God literally cannot have sin in His presence. So, with Adam he was created without sin and then chose, by eating the fruit, to separate himself from God.

 

[B-A-C]

When God first contemplated His Elect He contemplated them as "saved." He contemplated His Elect as holy and righteous. This is the only way God can see them for there is no sin in God, there is no death in God.

Do you have any verses to prove God can only "see" people who have never sinned? As for no death, I wonder who caused the deaths in Acts 5:5 and Acts 5:10?
How about Acts 12:23? Exod 14:28?

Did God talk to Adam in the garden after the sin? Did he ask them "who told you that you were naked?"
After Cain killed Abel, did God talk to him? Did Cain answer back "Am I my brothers keeper?"
After David sinned, did God ask him "I give you three choices, which do you choose?"
I do not consider Adam and Eve in the garden the "original sin". I consider the fall of Satan the original sin.
Satan sins all the time, does God talk to him?

 

[jeremiah1five]

You say that Adam was created "sinful." Yet you also say that sin does not come from holy. If God is holy, then either sin can come from holy or Adam was not created sinful.

Let me clarify. And, let me reiterate.
There is only ONE God.
God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself. God is Holy and God cannot sin. There is the first Adam who was created from the dust of the ground (created matter). The last Adam is from heaven from God. Anything and everything not God must fall short of His glory for there is only ONE God and He is the standard by which all things are judged. The ONLY Persons that can stand before a Holy God are God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Do you agree?
If you disagree, then you will have to say that God re-duplicated Himself in His creation (in this case, Adam) and gave His glory to another (again, Adam), thereby bringing into existence TWO God's.
If you are going to say man (Adam) was holy, then by necessity he would also have to have other deific properties or attributes. He would also have to have Shekinah, he would also have to be All-Wise, he would also have to have All-Knowledge, be Omnipotent, etc. He would not be half-man or half-God. He would have to be as Christ, fully man and fully God. There is no such thing as half-saved and half-condemned. This is why God is God. Because He possesses ALL the Deific properties or Attributes that define Him as God. And to say that man (Adam) was created holy like God it is reasonable to ask: God is Holy. How long before God, who is Holy, sin if sin can come from holiness?
There is only ONE God. There is none like Him. And, as I said, in order to be able to create a man (from created matter) atonement was made by the Son which allowed Him to proceed in His plan for man, for His elect.

1 Corinthians 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:42
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

What leads you to believe that the lamb was slain before the creation of the world?

The Scripture:

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If this is true, then why would Christ also need to die on Earth? Why would there be law in the first place?

Because God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself.
Because God is creating a being that is not God. The Law is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. He is the Law God said He would put into our inward parts:

Jeremiah 31:33
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If there was already a sacrifice made, then would not God have offered the opportunity for salvation and freedom from the law earlier?

How can He? Man was not yet created. And it is not "freedom from the law," but freedom from the penalty of sin which is death. God is Life. Anything outside of God would be death.

I believe that Adam was created without sin in God's image. He was also create with free will, thus the fall. I see sin as anything that separates you from God. Thus, God literally cannot have sin in His presence. So, with Adam he was created without sin and then chose, by eating the fruit, to separate himself from God.

Free will in man is an illusion. Not even God has "free will," at least, not to choose between good and evil. God is good so all His choices would proceed from that nature and attribute. God has free will in which to do a thing or not do a thing. But His will is limited based upon His nature. The same goes for man. Man chose to disobey God because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned. A fountain brings forth sweet water or bitter. Man brought forth disobedience because his act, which was not God or Godly, came from a sin-ful nature, or as the word is defined "fallen short of the glory of God." If Adam had not disobeyed he would have in TIME died for he was not created with the attribute of eternal-ness. God did not give His glory to another. neither did God give His nature of Holiness to another.
I believe that God was looking forward to the Hypostatic Union of Christ when He created man. This is the image man was created in. We are being conformed to Christ, not Adam (Rom. 8:29). And what better image of a Father is there than a Son?
By the way, animals die. The penalty for sin is death. And God does not unjustly punish "innocent" animals with death for the sin of another (Adam). The animals did not have a restriction upon them to "thou shalt not." Yet, they die. They die because they, too, were not holy, for again (and you don't seem to get this) There is only ONE God.

 

[B-A-C]

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I am curious, who do you think is getting worshipped in this verse?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Do you have any verses to prove God can only "see" people who have never sinned?

No, not in answer to your specific question. However, God does not hear the prayers of sinners (non-Covenant), nor does He "hear" or accept their worship. The only people that can approach God are those who are in Covenant and are His people.

As for no death, I wonder who caused the deaths in Acts 5:5 and Acts 5:10?
How about Acts 12:23? Exod 14:28?

The LORD.

Did God talk to Adam in the garden after the sin? Did he ask them "who told you that you were naked?"

Yes.

After Cain killed Abel, did God talk to him? Did Cain answer back "Am I my brothers keeper?"

Yes.

After David sinned, did God ask him "I give you three choices, which do you choose?"

Yes.

I do not consider Adam and Eve in the garden the "original sin". I consider the fall of Satan the original sin.

As far as the creation of spirit beings, yes, I agree.
Lucifer, also, was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark" of the glory of God.

Satan sins all the time, does God talk to him?

Does Lucifer sin when he is obedient to God? Either way, Lucifer was also created falling short. There is only ONE God.
Yes, God not only communicates with him, but Lucifer is also still a servant of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I am curious, who do you think is getting worshipped in this verse?

The beast. Man.

 

[B-A-C]

Does Lucifer sin when he is obedient to God? Either way, Lucifer was also created falling short. There is only ONE God.
Yes, God not only communicates with him, but Lucifer is also still a servant of God.

It's true, God uses even to wicked to accomplish his will. Do you believe Satan is always obedient to God?
If so, do you believe he will be thrown into the lake of fire? ( Rev 20:10 )
Do you believe all angels were created sin-ful? If so, why does God only certain ones? ( Jude 1:6 )

 

[jeremiah1five]

It's true, God uses even to wicked to accomplish his will. Do you believe Satan is always obedient to God?

Always.

If so, do you believe he will be thrown into the lake of fire? ( Rev 20:10 )

Yes.

Do you believe all angels were created sin-ful?

As per the premise of my post it should appear the answer to be yes, but my answer is a definite no.

If so, why does God only certain ones? ( Jude 1:6 )

Why does God "what" certain ones?

 

[B-A-C]

Why does God "what" certain ones?

ooops punish or imprison, should be the word left out here. sorry about that.

 

[jeremiah1five]

ooops punish or imprison, should be the word left out here. sorry about that.

Sorry about that, Chief?
Get Smart.
But you knew that, huh.


God punishes and/or imprisons for the same reason as He does here:

Romans 9:18-23
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Towards the end I just may have a question or three for you.

 

[Chad]

Free will in man is an illusion. Not even God has "free will," at least, not to choose between good and evil.

This is absurd and not biblical at all. Man has free will to choose good or evil (satan or GOD). It's all over in the bible and somehow you missed this?

Here are verses to dispute your unbiblical teaching. They require a choice, aka "free will"

Proverbs 3:5-6
James 1:5
Galatians 6:7
Matthew 3:2
Acts 3:19
1 John 3:23

Did you forget about the ten commandments? Yes, they require free will. Not an illusion

 

[Chad]

Man (Adam) was created "sin-ful" or "missing the mark" of the glory of God for God cannot re-duplicate Himself, and there is only ONE God.

More gibberish from you. This is not true. This contradicts the first sin in the Garden of Eden and GOD removing Adam and Even from the garden, and their sin cursing the earth. Read the bible.

Because of your ongoing false teachings, your account is now closed. I have warned you before, and you continue with nonsense.

 

[clark thompson]

Adam was mot made sinful but thru his God given freewill chose to sin

 

[B-A-C]

This thread is much like many predestination, free-will threads. There are a few verses you hear a lot. Rarely does anyone change their opinions.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
God "foreknew" some would be saved. I don't doubt that God knows what we humans call the "future". He predestined that if they were saved they would become "conformed to the image of his son". That verse doesn't really say he predestined them to be saved.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Again this verse doesn't say "He chose some of us in him". Before the foundation of the world he wanted us to be holy blameless before him. He predestined anyone who believes
as sons through Jesus Christ. He predestined the requirements to become saved "according to the kind intention of His will".

Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Again we see his purpose predestined, but not specific people.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
God doesn't wish that "any" would perish, not part of us, not some of us, but any of us.
He doesn't wish for some of us to come to repentance, he wants all of us to come to repentance.

If God wants something to happen, no one can stop it. He controls the weather, the stars, how tall you are, the color of your eyes, where you were born, your gender, and thousands
of things. But does he force certain people to be saved, and force certain others not to be saved? The verse above says he wants all to be saved, maybe he doesn't always force us to do what he wants?

Eze 2:4 "I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
Eze 2:5 "As for them, whether they listen or not--for they are a rebellious house--they will know that a prophet has been among them.

Eze 3:7 yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate.

Prov 1:24 "Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;

Rom 10:21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."
Maybe he stretching his hands out to the whole world, maybe we just aren't willing to listen to him? Maybe he gives us a choice?

Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Maybe God gives us the choice to resist him. It isn't what he wants, but he doesn't force us.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
God may control the circumstances that certain people hear about the Gospel and hear about Jesus, but does he force them to believe?

And even if they do believe, does he force them to keep believing?
Matt 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
1 Tim 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Personally, I do think we can reject Jesus too many times, and eventually he will give us what we want.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

Luke 6:13 And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:
Jesus does choose some people specifically. In fact, I'm sure he chooses us all. But do all of us choose him?
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

Now whether you believe in predestination or not probably isn't a sin, and it probably won't keep you out of heaven, but it seems many Christians have quit doing the great commission,
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Some churches don't have altar calls anymore, some churches don't evangelize anymore, some churches don't support missions (missionaries) anymore...
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

.. why? because they believe God has already decided who is going to be saved, and we shouldn't try to do anything about it.
Now maybe he is the one using us and giving us the will to do these things "so that his will would be done" and "all would come to the knowledge of repentance".

Predestination, either you believe in it or you don't, rarely do people change their minds about it one way or the other.