Old St. Augustine's prayer book

[Mouse]

I have this little St. Augustine's prayer that I bought from either a thrift shop or yard sale many years ago. I don't know the date as it's not marked inside. This prayer Book is an Anglo-Catholic devotional book for members of the Episcopal Church and the first edition was published in 1947. I probably have this first edition but like I said, there's no date inside. Among the wonderful prayers it contains, I now notice it contains also some very wrong prayers. For instance, the Mary and saint prayers. But check this out....

I turn to a page 247 and find this prayer: BEFORE A PICTURE OR STATUE OF OUR BLESSED LADY.
That's 100% idolotry! (If anyone wants to read this foul prayer I can send it along). The prayer basically says that you will honour her and be her servant and she'll protect you...this statue or picture. And you also ask Mary (the statue) that you can have, through grace a good death.

There are also other prayers, devotions, novenas, hymns and litany's to Mary and the saints.

My question is: am I to dispose of this book because it has these wrong things? And if I do rid of it, the prayers I use everyday (the ones to Jesus) are inside and I don't remember them by heart. Or should I rip out the pages I use and desecrate the entire book?
Any good recomendations as to a good prayer book with no Mary or saint stuff?
Thanks!

 

[rizen1]

Jesus Saves

I'll say Yes, please do. ( dispose of the book )

God is truth, light and dark can not mix.

John 4:24
24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

John 4:23
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

You can get great devotionals from TD Jakes, Joyce Myers, Max Lucado,Bruce Wilkinson to name a few. All our christian resources should be Jesus Christ centered.

 

[ladylovesJesus]

Personally I do not use a book for prayers as I pray from my heart to Jesus. You do not have to use specific prayers. God knows our hearts and knows what we need and supplies our needs. He likes to hear us pray. Simple thank you prayers. Certain churches still do use prayer books for set prayers.

I would not keep anything that is not totally based on the Bible. Nothing should worship Mary.

God bless

LLJ :rainbow: :rose:

 

[mounty]

wow your wording is so strong ,FOUL not a word i hear often,
Could we be a little more respectful of the Catholic religion as there are members of that church who come in to Talk Jesus to pray and read our point of view , i think the same point can be achived without using such strong wording.

 

[Mary Emily]

What to do with an old Prayer Book

Years ago, Mouse, I inherited quite a few old books, among them some prayer books like the one you mention. I took the ones I didn't want to a rare book dealer, and the ones that weren't worth much I gave to a local church that would be able to use them or sell them in their "thrift shop". If you're in the U.S. you could drop that book off at any Episcopal church or if you're in England, any C of E church. That is, of course, if you just don't want the book at all. Oops I just saw that you're in Ireland. I'm not sure if the Church of Ireland folks would want it...maybe the cathedral (Armagh?) or a big church in Dublin.

What I would suggest is this: Make a list of the prayers you like, that are completely Christ-centred, and what page in the book they are on. Then copy the prayers you like and put them in a little notebook of your own that you will use just for prayers.

No need to deface the original book; just take it back where you bought it and tell them it wasn't what you had in mind. Maybe they'll let you exchange it for something you like better.

Failing that, you can donate it back to them along with anything else it's time to donate. "If you haven't used it in a year, time for it to disappear!"

Mary Emily
PS--Just a bit of info: Some of those prayers in that particular book, compiled initially by English and American Anglican monks, use language that's overblown and looks at first reading like worship of Mary. I think the old edition you have may be rather rare now--if it's in fairly good shape, a library might want it. In any case, any priest will tell you that those prayers are really not intended as worship, but just asking for her prayers and help the way you'd ask any friend to help you or pray for you. The 19th-century fashion for imitating the 19th Century Roman Catholic worship-style has rather gone out of style nowadays because nearly every church, including the Roman Catholic church, has been experimenting with newer worship styles for the past few decades. So the old-fashioned prayers you encountered are not much in use nowadays. I asked my pastor (who is not a Roman Catholic, by the way) what about them? and he said, "Oh well, if somebody worships Mary by mistake, all she ever does anyhow is deliver all that worship promptly to the Son of God! Just like you'd re-send a letter that was mis-delivered to you."

 

[Mouse]

wow your wording is so strong ,FOUL not a word i hear often,
Could we be a little more respectful of the Catholic religion as there are members of that church who come in to Talk Jesus to pray and read our point of view , i think the same point can be achived without using such strong wording.

Sorry for that Mounty, I appologize for the wording.

 

[Mary Emily]

Mounty and Mouse, may I be the first one to assure you and everyone else that "strong" language in Mouse's post is something that my Roman Catholic friends and I (I'm an Orthodox Christian--our services look a bit like the Roman Catholic ones but they're really somewhat different--it would take too long a post to explain that all adequately) are not a bit offended. It all springs from a terrible misunderstanding that's hundreds of years old, and it may take hundreds of years to put it right. But until then, please know that neither the Roman Catholics nor the Orthodox Christians worship Mary or any of the saints, for example the good disciples mentioned in the Bible, or other more modern saints whose lives were especially holy, so holy that the whole world noticed. What we do with the saints is this: we venerate them. We look up to them as examples of people who lived a holy and Christlike life. We presume that they're in heaven, since they were always so close to Jesus while they were on earth, so we look up to them as our friends in heaven. We ask them to pray for us, to request specific favours for us from Jesus, just as we'd ask friends who are still on earth to do the same.

Sometimes some of our prayers look to other people as though we've gone a bit overboard and we are gushing all over the saints. Well, we're emotional--sometimes we do gush. But we're really just crazy about all of our friends, whether they're in heaven or on earth. We don't, however, confuse them with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Trinity one in being and undivided. So please don't worry--if any of us acts as if we don't know who's who in heaven, correct us whenever you please, because it'll cause us to re-examine our prayer life and make sure we're praying effectively, and please, pray for all of us! All of the church has its troubles and issues, and we can use all the prayers we can get! Thanks!

With love in Christ, Who died for us, and rose from the dead!

Mary Emily

 

[rizen1]

Jesus Saves

Mouse
I appologize for the wording.

I'm sure it was alot to handle, but I praise God for the discernment he placed in you and your obedience to listen to the Holy Spirit. It's always interesting when you're searching for truth you find alot of surprises.

I applaud you for being humble and apologizing. God knows your heart, so don't beat yourself up.

As LLJ said, prayer is personal.

 

[ladylovesJesus]

We ask them to pray for us, to request specific favours for us from Jesus, just as we'd ask friends who are still on earth to do the same.

The way I see it Jesus is the one we pray to and make requests from. We have direct access to God through Jesus. He intercedes on our behalf.

Hebrews 4.16

Let us then fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace (the throne of God's unmerited favor to us sinners), that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find grace to help in good time for every need [appropriate help and well-timed help, coming just when we need it].

God bless

LLJ :rainbow: :rose:

 

[Mary Emily]

Absolutely, LLJ, and many thanks for that wonderful quote from Hebrews 4:16! Yes, all of us do go directly to Jesus with all our praises, prayers and needs, and to Him primarily I think nowadays.

You could think of our other little words addressed to one saint or another as "chatting with His 'relatives' and 'close friends' to ask them to join us in prayer" but we primarily are really most often praying directly to Jesus, sometimes to the other persons of the Holy Trinity as well. Our praises too always go directly to the Holy Trinity and in particular to Jesus, so we really are on the same track.

It will take time to ungoof the misunderstanding, but there is no hurry (and really in my humble opinion no real problem) and you can be sure that the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox are constantly praying to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Trinity one in being and undivided. That kind of direct prayer is the cornerstone of our faith and growth.

God bless you always,

Mary Emily

 

[Mouse]

Years ago, Mouse, I inherited quite a few old books, among them some prayer books like the one you mention. I took the ones I didn't want to a rare book dealer, and the ones that weren't worth much I gave to a local church that would be able to use them or sell them in their "thrift shop". If you're in the U.S. you could drop that book off at any Episcopal church or if you're in England, any C of E church. That is, of course, if you just don't want the book at all. Oops I just saw that you're in Ireland. I'm not sure if the Church of Ireland folks would want it...maybe the cathedral (Armagh?) or a big church in Dublin.

What I would suggest is this: Make a list of the prayers you like, that are completely Christ-centred, and what page in the book they are on. Then copy the prayers you like and put them in a little notebook of your own that you will use just for prayers.

No need to deface the original book; just take it back where you bought it and tell them it wasn't what you had in mind. Maybe they'll let you exchange it for something you like better.

Failing that, you can donate it back to them along with anything else it's time to donate. "If you haven't used it in a year, time for it to disappear!"

Mary Emily

Hi Mary Emily,
I like the idea about copying the prayers in my own little booklet, thanks. I also like the devotionals that rizen1 mentioned. I live in Finland, not Ireland. The primary religion here is Lutheran. But I will be visiting USA June 26th. I have a hard time getting rid of books because I am a book lover. Especially old books like this one.

 

[Mary Emily]

Yes, Mouse, I have a hard time getting rid of books too.... some days, I just have to grit my teeth and take some to the library when there's no more room, and I always end up getting more books. I have a strict rule now, no more books unless absolutely necessary for my work.

How on earth did I manage to mix up where you live? :embarasse Goodness, Finland is nowhere near Ireland!!! Silly me! And I knew well enough about the Church of Finland too.... They have good choirs in Finland, don't they? Last year at Christmas time I heard a lovely programme that came on one of the Rick Steves travel programmes about his trip to Finland to go to a Christmas service where they had a fine choir of young people who sang like angels in a beautiful medieval church.

But anyhow, the reason I thought of the prayer notebook was that one could paste in or copy by hand prayers from existing books, and then, if it's a loose-leaf notebook, it would also be easy to write down one's own prayers, or prayer-lists of important prayer-requests from various people or prayers about important issues, so as to have one's very own original prayer book that was completely unique. And it could be carefully preserved and handed down in the family, too. If I had children, I'd be happy to be leaving them a prayer book that someone who loved them compiled.

One could also compile prayer books for relatives and friends in this way by writing prayers especially for the recipients and including lots of blank sheets so the recipients could also add prayers of their own. For those, it would be nice if some prayers were composed by the person preparing the book, leaving the blank pages for the recipient to add their own prayers, so that each book one created would be a complete "original", a sort of "My prayers for my dear sister ___________".

As ladylovesJesus does, though, I often pray without a book. I just pour out what's on my heart. I believe God always hears our prayers and answers them in a way that is best for us, according to His will.


Best wishes and prayers for you!

Mary Emily

 

[Chad]

I have this little St. Augustine's prayer that I bought from either a thrift shop or yard sale many years ago. I don't know the date as it's not marked inside. This prayer Book is an Anglo-Catholic devotional book for members of the Episcopal Church and the first edition was published in 1947. I probably have this first edition but like I said, there's no date inside. Among the wonderful prayers it contains, I now notice it contains also some very wrong prayers. For instance, the Mary and saint prayers. But check this out....

I turn to a page 247 and find this prayer: BEFORE A PICTURE OR STATUE OF OUR BLESSED LADY.
That's 100% idolotry! (If anyone wants to read this foul prayer I can send it along). The prayer basically says that you will honour her and be her servant and she'll protect you...this statue or picture. And you also ask Mary (the statue) that you can have, through grace a good death.

There are also other prayers, devotions, novenas, hymns and litany's to Mary and the saints.

My question is: am I to dispose of this book because it has these wrong things? And if I do rid of it, the prayers I use everyday (the ones to Jesus) are inside and I don't remember them by heart. Or should I rip out the pages I use and desecrate the entire book?
Any good recomendations as to a good prayer book with no Mary or saint stuff?
Thanks!

Throw it out, burn it up. Its garbage. It has lies from the devil. Do you want to keep the devil's lies in this book? I know your a smart person sister. I'm telling you I suggest you rid it to the thrash bin right this moment.

The best prayer book is the one inside your heart. GOD wants your own words, your own prayers directly from your heart.

 

[Mary Emily]

Apology to Chad and everyone on Talk Jesus

Oh, my goodness, I had no idea that my post was so wrong for this forum.

Please, please forgive me and disregard everything I posted. I was unaware of the thrust of the thread--again. My heartfelt apologies.

I will not post anything on Talk Jesus again.

I wish you all well, and will continue to pray for all you do. May God bless each and every one on here.

Chad, if possible, please delete all my posts on Talk Jesus.

Sincerely,

Mary Emily

 

[Chad]

Sister, the post by Mouse was excellent and not wrong at all. Your post, (just read them) seemed fine as well. I'm not sure why you feel this way. Its a good example for others to learn that we should refrain from these false teachings (what Mouse was referring to in her original post).

I have no idea where you get the notion that your post was wrong. I didn't say anything of that nature nor did anyone else.

 

[Mary Emily]

To Chad

No, Chad, if you will look at your post, and then my post above it that suggested that Mouse save the Jesus-centred prayers and either return the book to where she got it or drop it off at some church that uses it, you will see that our viewpoints are not at all consistent.

The best way to destroy a prayer book, one that has Jesus' holy name printed on nearly every page, is to burn it so that no parts of it are left that are recognisable as parts of a prayer book, so that the holy name of Jesus is not trodden on or put in a dirty place such as a landfill.

I strongly feel that I should not post on this forum, lest it appear that I might be attempting to contradict you. I am not here to debate. I was enjoying the forum and loved each and every person I met on here, but I am afraid that if I remain, I may post things that are considered evil.

Years ago, I was an Episcopalian and I used to use that little prayer book. There were things in it that I suppose were pretty much copied from Roman Catholic devotions of the nineteenth century, and they certainly did not match the criteria in your post that you put up just now. There were, however, some very beautiful and poetic prayers addressed to Jesus, and I did use those for some years until Jesus led me out of the Episcopal church.

One of the prayers in the St. Augustine's Prayer Book, if I can remember it correctly, went like this:

"Soul of Christ, sanctify me
"Body of Christ, save me
"Blood of Christ, inebriate me [meaning: same as being "washed in the Blood of the Lamb" so that I will plead the blood of Jesus on all who are suffering]
"Water from the side of Christ, wash me
"Passion [means suffering] of Christ, strengthen me
"O good Jesus, hear me
"Within Thy wounds hide me
"Suffer me not to be separated from Thee
"From the malicious enemy defend me
"In the hour of my death call me
"And bid me come unto Thee
"That I may praise Thee with Thy saints
"and with Thy angels
"Forever and ever
"Amen"

I felt sorry for Mouse, hating to lose prayers that she liked, that's all, but it was wrong of me to suggest she save any part of a book that you have told her has influences of the devil in it. I am sure you know more about that prayer book than I do, since I have not looked at it for over 30 years. You are the head of this forum and I am only here by your favour, so I would not wish to take improper advantage of your hospitality or mislead any of your members.

Again, I apologise. It's unfortunate, but I guess we just don't have a "fit" here. I'd be bound always to be saying things that are contrary to your views, and I wouldn't even realise it until it was too late.

May God bless you and all you do for His glory, and many thanks to you, and to everyone.

Mary Emily

 

[Faithful Son]

We can't call ourselves overcomers in Jesus if we just pick up and leave at every disagreement or road block, can we?

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:5
Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Stop, think and realize that I have a different set of beliefs, Chad has them, Mouse has them and so does every other "invidual" in the body of Jesus Christ, that's what makes us body parts.

Do not be prideful and think you are special and don't "fit" in anywhere, you're not suppose to fit anywhere, except with God.

Man can never fill that void, people can never make you feel better, only God can, period.

 

[Mary Emily]

Thank you

Many thanks, Teraside. Yes, I do know that we all "fit" as far as Jesus is concerned, but I honestly think that the things I have posted sounded a discordant note which I did not anticipate. For that I am extremely sorry.

I felt that there were a few pearls of beautiful devotion in that little prayer book, but Chad deemed the book "garbage". Chad is the leader here. I am a newbie. My posting my thoughts will run the risk of causing controversy because I might use the wrong wording that would imply to some people "idolatry" or some other sin in their eyes. I am not willing to cause discord in any way, even inadvertently.

Thank you for the chance to try to contribute, though, and I hope that others who share more of your viewpoints will join you.

I will keep you all in my most earnest prayers, and I know that Jesus will bless you and many souls will come to Him through your love and helpfulness.

Sincerely in Christ, may He keep you all in His love,

Mary Emily

 

[Chad]

No, Chad, if you will look at your post, and then my post above it that suggested that Mouse save the Jesus-centred prayers and either return the book to where she got it or drop it off at some church that uses it, you will see that our viewpoints are not at all consistent.

That's ok. We cannot always agree on everything. This is normal. However, I would never drop of a book that has portions of the devil's lies at any church. How does this affect the church receiving this book if they do not know any better? We're supposed to preach truth, not lies.

The best way to destroy a prayer book, one that has Jesus' holy name printed on nearly every page, is to burn it so that no parts of it are left that are recognisable as parts of a prayer book, so that the holy name of Jesus is not trodden on or put in a dirty place such as a landfill.

Back this up with Scripture. Show me where Scripture commands this. The name of Jesus is sacred, not the prayer book itself. Do not worship paper sister. What we're throwing away is a book that has the devil's lies. Its either 100% truth or not. Which do you choose? You do not need other people's prayer to pray sincerely to GOD or be edified. You need the Holy Spirit over other's own prayers. While they may be beautiful, are they your own prayers? Why would someone want a book that has some things ok with Scripture, while some others clearly from the devil himself? I know I sure would not.

I strongly feel that I should not post on this forum, lest it appear that I might be attempting to contradict you. I am not here to debate. I was enjoying the forum and loved each and every person I met on here, but I am afraid that if I remain, I may post things that are considered evil.

Years ago, I was an Episcopalian and I used to use that little prayer book. There were things in it that I suppose were pretty much copied from Roman Catholic devotions of the nineteenth century, and they certainly did not match the criteria in your post that you put up just now. There were, however, some very beautiful and poetic prayers addressed to Jesus, and I did use those for some years until Jesus led me out of the Episcopal church.

One of the prayers in the St. Augustine's Prayer Book, if I can remember it correctly, went like this:

"Soul of Christ, sanctify me
"Body of Christ, save me
"Blood of Christ, inebriate me [meaning: same as being "washed in the Blood of the Lamb" so that I will plead the blood of Jesus on all who are suffering]
"Water from the side of Christ, wash me
"Passion [means suffering] of Christ, strengthen me
"O good Jesus, hear me
"Within Thy wounds hide me
"Suffer me not to be separated from Thee
"From the malicious enemy defend me
"In the hour of my death call me
"And bid me come unto Thee
"That I may praise Thee with Thy saints
"and with Thy angels
"Forever and ever
"Amen"

I felt sorry for Mouse, hating to lose prayers that she liked, that's all, but it was wrong of me to suggest she save any part of a book that you have told her has influences of the devil in it. I am sure you know more about that prayer book than I do, since I have not looked at it for over 30 years. You are the head of this forum and I am only here by your favour, so I would not wish to take improper advantage of your hospitality or mislead any of your members.

Again, I apologise. It's unfortunate, but I guess we just don't have a "fit" here. I'd be bound always to be saying things that are contrary to your views, and I wouldn't even realise it until it was too late.

May God bless you and all you do for His glory, and many thanks to you, and to everyone.

Mary Emily

 

[Chad]

More food for thought...

If the physical book is sacred, why are you "burning" it in the first place? Did it fall apart over the years otherwise? If it did, did the actual Word of GOD (which is sacred) fall apart too because of the book's condition? No. If the physical book is sacred, then why did it fall apart in the first place? Would GOD let that happen? No. Its the message that is sacred, not the physical material.

Also, if you read the Word of GOD in the Bible itself, you have it on your heart now (Psalm 119:11). Let's take away the "book" for a while. Does the Word you received and now engraved in your heart no longer sacred? See, this makes it clear the message (Word) of GOD is sacred, not the physical material.

If one believer is witnessing to another believer face to face, the sacred Word of GOD is powered by the Holy Spirit as the believer witnesses. The unsaved is convicted with the truth and accepts Christ. Where is the physical book then? It was not there at this time, therefore it is clear the *message*, Word of GOD is sacred and has the power. Not the material.

Regarding a book mixed with Scriptural and non-scriptural content (from the devil)...

John 12:46
I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.

Ephesians 5:8
[ Walk in Light ] For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light