Loyal
Greetings
When we talk about scripture, we should not set traps against another brother or sister.
I am far from amused that you feel you need to do something like that to prove your point of view.
I don’t play worldly games!
Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross
Greetings
When we talk about scripture, we should not set traps against another brother or sister.
I am far from amused that you feel you need to do something like that to prove your point of view.
I don’t play worldly games!
Loyal
I think the problem here is... too many are saying "I think this", or "I think that". What we think doesn't matter. What scriptures says it what matters.
Dozens of scriptures have been posted, at least on the non-osas side.
What you think is "good" isn't necessarily what God says is good. Good doesn't mean "nice".
A good parent will punish bad children. A good judge will punish bad criminals. A good soldier will kill the enemy.
Loyal
There are two different situations in these two scriptures you quote.
The first is in the time before the last breath.
The second is judgement day.
Let us look at the verse you seem affixed to, which say... For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
There are many verses that tell us, do this or do that, and you will be saved, but they are insufficient on their own as ALL scripture is God breathed, let us look ar some...
Entrance to the Kingdom
Romans 10:3 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Calling is not enough.
Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Confess and believe is not enough - we must call on His Name and complete all the requirements.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Receive Him, follows confession and submission.
John 3:3 “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Receive Him, follows confession and submission, but must include believing and baptism, and being born again of water and Spirit
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
He who believes and the other elements scripture quotes, will be saved, grafted into the wine, providing they continue to bear fruit for the Father.
John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Believing is not enough, even the devil believes there was Jesus the Christ, he tried three times to tempt him.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This is simply distinguishing between those in Christ and the world, and confirms the condemnation of the one not in Christ, not born again.
1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Ephesians 5:17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
The True Vine
John 15:1-17 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches.
He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
Love and Joy Perfected
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Taking these scriptures, there are more and we must know them.
Items to consider to become a Christian, and our promise of the gift of Salvation,
We are to
CALL, CONFESS and BELIEVE
FOLLOW, RECEIVE and be BAPTISED
We are to DIE TO SIN, and be RAISED with CHRIST in the Spirit
We are to ABIDE in Him so He can ABIDE in us, God puts everything in our court, Jesus dies so we MAY BE SAVED.
He stands at the door of our heart and knocks, we have to open the door to Him.
Salvatioin is a Free Gift, anyone can give a gift, we have to receive it, we have to receive it, we have to not want to lose it.
v11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy MAY REMAIN in you,
v16 appointed you that YOU SHOULD go and bear fruit, and that your fruit SHOULD REMAIN,
LOSING THE PROMISE OF SALVATION DUE TO NOT DOING THE THINGS GOD REQUESTS OF US
What if we don't continue to abide in Him?
What if we don't bear fruit for the Father?
What if our love for the Lord grows cold?
What if we return to our wicked and sinful ways?
What if?...
v2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away
- Self explanatory
v4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself.
- If we do not abide, if we do not bear fruit - we will wither, be cut out and burned.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.
- What if we don't create good works? we will wither, be cut out of the vine and burned
OSAS is NOT in scripture, the ability to lose our salvation is in scripture
If we are not abiding in Christ, we are abiding in sin, the world and the devil.
Brother, you keep quoting OSAS is in scripture, I have not seen one verse that clearly states that, if you know of one please share it, we must know, because ALL scrioture is God breathed and if you can show a verse that clearly shows OSAS we will consider it, we must consider it.
When we accept Christ into our heart, along with all the other requirements, we are born again of the spirit, our spirit connects with the Lord's spirit so that his spirit can connect with ours and he can abide in us as we abide in him.
But not bearing fruit for the Father and being 'cut out' IS IN SCRIPTURE, for all to see, Jesus gave us a very colourful and beautiful picture of the type of abiding he expects from us, he also makes it stand out in black and white, what happens if we do not abide in Him, we are cut out and burned because we are no longer abiding in Him.
Gracious and most loving Father. we thank you for making it so clear to us, through your son, that we can lose our salvation; Lord help us heed the warnings you clearly give us, thank you for making it so clear, we must REMAIN in the vine, we must remain on the narrow road, we must not risk our salvation by being tempted back into the world, the sins of the world, and the temptation by satan.
We are to PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS, we are to ABIDE in you Lord so that you can abide in us, and we are to continue in your love and continue to BEAR FRUIT, good fruit to the Father's Glory.
Thank you Lord, in Jesus Name we pray. Amen
In His Love
Brother Paul
Loyal
Loyal
I conclude that evidence from the scriptures have been provided, details and other scriptures have been added to further clarify the situation but you appeared blinkered, veiled, as if your views are right and everyone else is wrong.
You accuse people of cherry picking, yet seem cherry pick yourself. I constantly say all scrioture is God breathed and we must consider all, yet you look for scriptures that seem to suit your thinking.
You invited us to the discussion, but there are been little discussion as it needs both ideas to be considered. That has not been the case.
What is so frustrating here is, you say you want to discuss but are not willing to discuss, you only push your point of view. You accuse people of cherry picking but do it yourself and cannot see it. You even said you set a trap, that took the biscuit for me, I don't play worldly games when talking scripture. I say this in love brother, but I am out.
Loyal
Loyal
So why the apparent discrepancy? I believe both verses 100%. Anyone who believes in Jesus can saved, in fact if you don't believe in Jesus you can't be saved.
OK, so now they are saved. Great, good, awesome!! So then why Matthew 7:21-23; ? It tells us why in that passage.
Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
These people did miracles.. "in HIS name". They prophesied.. "in HIS name". They cast out demons.. "in HIS name". They even called Him "LORD"!
So obviously they believed in Him. So then, why wasn't that good enough? Verse 23 gives us the answer.
They continued to practice sin. Practice lawlessness, practice iniquity. Call it whatever you want. They didn't just stumble in sin from time to time.
They practiced it. They lived in it.
Maybe they were saved for a while. It's doubtful they did miracles, cast out demons, and prophesied in their own power. That wasn't the problem.
The failure to "remain" in Christ, or "abide" in Christ. They were even changed for a while. But they didn't continue in it. They weren't over-comers. The succumbed to the world again.
1Jn 2:24; Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Notice the word "if" in this verse. If what you have heard remains in you, then.. (and only then) you will continue to be in the Son (and Father).
Rev 2:26; 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
1Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
Loyal
What does it mean to be saved ?
Once saved - an interesting notion.
Scripture confines being saved to a specific group of believers of the gospel once delivered to the saints - a Pentecostal church with signs following.
But since the rise and rise of the church of Rome "salvation" has grown to include many other gospels with a plethora of doctrines about being saved.
Salvation, a freely given gift from God the Father through the work of Jesus Christ, is the means by which a person is saved from the penalty of sin [spiritual death] and promised the hope of eternal life.
The process of salvation begins with God's calling, opening one's heart to spiritual truth.
A person comes to repentance and submits to obedience to do God's will - the path to salvation in Christ Jesus and the gospel.
Repentance > obedience > confession of faith > water baptism > remission of past sins > holy Spirit baptism > walking in the Spirit > overcoming the flesh and the world > fruit of the Spirit as a testimony to discipleship.
Jesus Christ - the cross - death, burial and resurrection opens the door to direct access by disciples to be reconciled spiritually to our Father in heaven.
No longer a stranger to the will and purpose of God > the mystery of God revealed > Christ in us > sanctified and justified through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
It takes two to work together for a successful marriage. Adultery leads to divorce. God divorced both Israel and Judah for their fornication with other gods.
Jesus the bridegroom can also divorce unfaithful guests to his wedding feast who have committed spiritual adultery - the man with no wedding garment cast into the outer darkness.
A disciple must renew their faithfulness and love of God daily for the rest of their life - every day despite what may come against a Spirit-filled Christian.
Every disciple must engender their own inner strength so as to endure until their last day.
Stumbling along the way is covered by contrition and praying to God for help and assistance to overcome wrongdoings and to return back to righteousness.
Endurance, loyalty, constancy, patience for the reward - keeping one's testimony true - these are necessary to finish the race.
Not everybody who competes in a marathon race lasts until the finishing line to claim the prize.
Once saved - an interesting notion.
Scripture confines being saved to a specific group of believers of the gospel once delivered to the saints - a Pentecostal church with signs following.
But since the rise and rise of the church of Rome "salvation" has grown to include many other gospels with a plethora of doctrines about being saved.
Salvation, a freely given gift from God the Father through the work of Jesus Christ, is the means by which a person is saved from the penalty of sin [spiritual death] and promised the hope of eternal life.
The process of salvation begins with God's calling, opening one's heart to spiritual truth.
A person comes to repentance and submits to obedience to do God's will - the path to salvation in Christ Jesus and the gospel.
Repentance > obedience > confession of faith > water baptism > remission of past sins > holy Spirit baptism > walking in the Spirit > overcoming the flesh and the world > fruit of the Spirit as a testimony to discipleship.
Jesus Christ - the cross - death, burial and resurrection opens the door to direct access by disciples to be reconciled spiritually to our Father in heaven.
No longer a stranger to the will and purpose of God > the mystery of God revealed > Christ in us > sanctified and justified through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
It takes two to work together for a successful marriage. Adultery leads to divorce. God divorced both Israel and Judah for their fornication with other gods.
Jesus the bridegroom can also divorce unfaithful guests to his wedding feast who have committed spiritual adultery - the man with no wedding garment cast into the outer darkness.
A disciple must renew their faithfulness and love of God daily for the rest of their life - every day despite what may come against a Spirit-filled Christian.
Every disciple must engender their own inner strength so as to endure until their last day.
Stumbling along the way is covered by contrition and praying to God for help and assistance to overcome wrongdoings and to return back to righteousness.
Endurance, loyalty, constancy, patience for the reward - keeping one's testimony true - these are necessary to finish the race.
Not everybody who competes in a marathon race lasts until the finishing line to claim the prize.
Active
Again, suffering from the consequences in this life, and losing their reward in the next life. "To whom much is given, much is required," that's the rule of thumbs is in Luke 12:48. There will be harsh judgement, just take a look at the letters to the five bad churches in Rev. 2-3. They'll be like that prodigal son eating pods with pigs in the mud. It's a downward spiral as described in Rom. 1.
Also, not only will they themselves suffer, other people around them will suffer, especially for those in leadership positions. There are societal consequences from their action - or inaction. "Weak men create hard times", ever heard of that? Yeah we're living in the thick of it right now, baby!
Member
I personally think the majority of those people were frauds. They didn't have any real power, didn't do any real miracles. If they did cast out demons... I am not making this up: friend of mine heard a confession from a Catholic priest. He told her he drove the demons out of people by persuading them to go into him.
He can't be the only one doing it that way, I suspect many do it that way, or by finding someone else they can go into, like the way baalam did it with the Israelites.
I'm not going to argue osas one way or the other. I know I have the capacity to harden my own heart.
And not intending to side track the conversation into Christian suicide. But I realized I think around 2014 that I didn't have the will to harden my heart in order to enable me to do it. So I didn't. Also was really never tempted to, later realized that's because I didn't desire it.
Later I realized the suicide distraction wasn't my desires, but rather my ex's childhood trauma producing suicidal despair; not mine, but I can't prove it. Anyhow it's gone and I did feel something leave me, but I have no memory of what left me and/or how it got in, which I would have if it were a demon or spirit of suicide or depression.
Loyal
I feel the need to add a little more having slept on it and read a little more of what you have posted.
I am shocked at yours replies brother, your love for God is commendable brother, but love can be blind. I have come across many people over the year that only want to accept, God is love, they turn off to anything that does not relate to love. Brother @B-A-C summed it up here...
God is a loving father, but a loving father will punish disobedient children. Disobedient being as some of the scriptures quoted, wickedness-sin, not obeying-sin, not abiding which is a command-sin, proclaiming you are a Christian when you commit wicked things we are told we must not do.
As for OSAS, you have provided no scriptural evidence, regarding the topic, scripture provided clearly shows OSAS is false teaching.
All scripture is God breathed, all scripture is accepted by myself and others, 100%. If you still remain of the OSAS is in scripture, you are cherry picking, the reason I can confirm this is because, you are not accepting, John 15, and other scriptures that have been clearly quoted for you.
I feel brother, the reason you created this post, was not for discussion, it was to push your point of view, to get others to believe as you do. If you provided satisfactory scriptural evidence I/we would naturally take it on board, we must, because from the first verse in Genesis to the last in Revelation is God's Word.
Unless you can come up with new evidence. from scripture, you feel has not already been discussed, I think everything has been considered that can be considered.
Conclusion
You have provided no scriptural evidence to substanciate your view regarding OSAS, therefore I conclude, it is false teaching, I would also add brother, I also feel it is very dangerous to teach others about OSAS, as it can mislead many to thinking they can never lose their salvation.
Jesus clearly says, we can be 'cut out' of the vine in the parable our Lord gave us by not abiding in Him, by not bearing fruit for the Father.
Listen to Jesus my friend, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him.
In His Love
Brother Paul
Active
If you really believe God is a loving father and we're his children, then by no way we would be disowned. He does punish disobedient children by giving us what we want out of our wicked desire and letting us have a bitter taste of it. If salvation can be lost, then why would he care? Yeshua clearly said, "I come for the LOST HOUSE OF ISRAEL." If OSAS is false, then the Lord's faith in his pursuit for the lost house of Israel is false.
Loyal
They are 'cut out' of the vine, but what has really happened is they have allowed themself to be cut out.
Christ is in us, when we are in Him. If we choose to follow the world and fall back into sin, we stop abiding in Him, we have in effect cut ourself off from the life giving sap, the Spirit of Christ Jesus.
God is a loving Father, he doesn't want any soul to be lost, He allowed His one and only Son to die for our sins. So that all who come to God through Jesus and 'follow His Commands' which includes abiding in Him as the example in the Vine and Branches can be saved. The same loving God that our dear brother @KingJ cannot see anything but love in will let all who do not accept Jesus, experience judgement and eternity in Hell. God did all He could, allowing His only Son to die taking upon himself the sins of the whole world.
God is a loving Father, but as our dear brother @B-A-C referred to, a good Father is strict, He will reprimand, He will punish his children to come back into line and adide and obey. As with children in the world some are just bad and will not listen to good advice, which is for there own good. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Sin as an attractive outer surface, and to some temptation is easy, repetitive temptation becomes an habit.
God is Love, God is Righteous, Sin is evil, Sin is wickedness against a loving God. The Bible, God's Holy Word, was given to all mankind, ahead of time, so that we can know what is right and what is wrong in God's eyes and through Jesus we can come to God, as branches in the vine, we abide, but if we don't abide and choose sin, we will wither, we will be 'cut out'.
For God so loved the world, (unsaved sinners) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth unto him perish not, but have eternal life.
Whoever believeth, is when we abide in Christ who is the vine, believeth not is when we fall into sin, and wither, and perish and are 'cut out' of the vine.
All scripture is God breathed 2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Bless you brother
Loyal
Greeting brother
John 15:1-17
The True Vine
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
Love and Joy Perfected
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
17 These things I command you, that you love one another.
Here is the Love of God from our Lord Jesus Christ, in a beautiful parable that clearly shows us; the root or lump where all the goodness comes from, Jesus the vine 'abides' with/in the root, we the branches who are grafted into the vine, when born again from above.
Jesus tells us, commands us, to abide in Him, the vine, that without Him we can do nothing.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
He tells us if we abide in Him we will bear much fruit bringing Glory to God the Father. But then goes on to tells us what happens if we do not abide in Him as He has Commanded.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
If is repeated, meaning if we do, but also if we don't, so what if we do not abide in Him, what if we do not keep His Commandments
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
The defining statement for Jesus
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
We are not His friend if we do not do as He Commands us, we are sinners, falling back into sin, the world and the devil, unrighteous.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
James 2:8-13
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
All scriptures quoted is from NKJV
Shalom
Active
"It is FINISHED!" John 19:30
Loyal
Num 16:28; Moses said, "By this you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing.
Num 16:29; "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me.
Num 16:30; "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD."
Num 16:31; As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open;
Num 16:32; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
Num 16:33; So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.
The LORD opened up the earth, and these men ( and their households ) went down alive to sheol. Is God good?
Num 16:46; Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put in it fire from the altar, and lay incense on it; then bring it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone forth from the LORD, the plague has begun!"
Num 16:47; Then Aaron took it as Moses had spoken, and ran into the midst of the assembly, for behold, the plague had begun among the people. So he put on the incense and made atonement for the people.
Num 16:48; He took his stand between the dead and the living, so that the plague was checked.
Num 16:49; But those who died by the plague were 14,700, besides those who died on account of Korah.
The wrath of God fell on these people and 14,700 died because of a plague from God. Is God good?
2Kin 2:23; Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!"
2Kin 2:24; When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.
42 children were making fun of Elisha, Elisha cursed them "in the name of the LORD", and bear came out and killed these 42 kids. Is God good?
Deut 29:22; "Now the generation to come, your sons who rise up after you and the foreigner who comes from a distant land, when they see the plagues of the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it, will say,
Deut 29:23; 'All its land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.'
Deut 29:24; "All the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?'
Deut 29:25; "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 29:26; 'They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them.
Deut 29:27; 'Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book;
Deut 29:28; and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.'
The anger of the LORD burned against this land, and He brings every curse written in this book (the Torah) against them. Is God good?
Gen 19:24; Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,
Gen 19:25; and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
Gen 19:26; But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Gen 19:27; Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD;
Gen 19:28; and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.
Gen 19:29; Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.
The LORD rains down fire and brimstone of two entire cities, and just leaves them as smoking ash. Is God good?
2Sam 12:15 So Nathan went to his house. Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick.
2Sam 12:16 David therefore inquired of God for the child; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground.
2Sam 12:17 The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them.
2Sam 12:18 Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was still alive, we spoke to him and he did not listen to our voice. How then can we tell him that the child is dead, since he might do himself harm!"
God struck down an innocent baby, the baby itself did no sin. Is God good?
There are dozens more stories like this in the old testament. What happened to those who worshipped the golden calf?
What happened to Achan after the battle of Ai? Is God good? How about the flood, God nearly wipes out all mankind. Is God good?
1Sam16:14; Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.
God sent an evil spirit down to terrorize Saul, is God good?
What about the New Testament?
Acts 5:3; But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4; "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Acts 5:5; And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
Acts 5:6; The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
Acts 5:7; Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Acts 5:8; And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
Acts 5:9; Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
Acts 5:10; And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
Acts 5:11; And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
Ananias and Sapphira were struck down ( dead ) because they lied about the price of land. Is God good?
Acts 12:21; On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them.
Acts 12:22; The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!"
Acts 12:23; And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.
God struck Herod down (he died) because he did not give God glory. Is God good?
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Some people will be "tormented" and face the wrath of God. .. God Himself will watch as this happens. Is God good?
1Sam 15:2; "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
1Sam 15:3; 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
God told Saul to kill the Amalakites. Even the women and children. Is God good?
Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Deut 5:9; 'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
God will make the children and grandchildren pay for what their fathers did. Is God good?
Mic 5:15; "And I will execute vengeance in anger and wrath On the nations which have not obeyed."
Heb 12:29; for our God is a consuming fire.
I have given dozens of examples here, and there are dozens more I could have added. But at the end of the day... is God good?
Do we we serve a "good" God? The answer to that question determines who is God in your mind.
If our interpretation of "good" matches everything God does. Then God is good, and God is God in our lives.
If our interpretation of "good" is based on what we thing good is, and it doesn't agree with who/what the Bible says God is... now we have made ourselves a god
who is trying judge God. If it isn't "logical" that God would do these things according to our logic, then our logic is faulty.
============================================
Rev 19:11; And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Rev 19:12; His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
Rev 19:13; He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14; And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16; And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Is God good?
Num 16:29; "If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the LORD has not sent me.
Num 16:30; "But if the LORD brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the LORD."
Num 16:31; As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open;
Num 16:32; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions.
Num 16:33; So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.
The LORD opened up the earth, and these men ( and their households ) went down alive to sheol. Is God good?
Num 16:46; Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put in it fire from the altar, and lay incense on it; then bring it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them, for wrath has gone forth from the LORD, the plague has begun!"
Num 16:47; Then Aaron took it as Moses had spoken, and ran into the midst of the assembly, for behold, the plague had begun among the people. So he put on the incense and made atonement for the people.
Num 16:48; He took his stand between the dead and the living, so that the plague was checked.
Num 16:49; But those who died by the plague were 14,700, besides those who died on account of Korah.
The wrath of God fell on these people and 14,700 died because of a plague from God. Is God good?
2Kin 2:23; Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!"
2Kin 2:24; When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.
42 children were making fun of Elisha, Elisha cursed them "in the name of the LORD", and bear came out and killed these 42 kids. Is God good?
Deut 29:22; "Now the generation to come, your sons who rise up after you and the foreigner who comes from a distant land, when they see the plagues of the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it, will say,
Deut 29:23; 'All its land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.'
Deut 29:24; "All the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?'
Deut 29:25; "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.
Deut 29:26; 'They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them.
Deut 29:27; 'Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book;
Deut 29:28; and the LORD uprooted them from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.'
The anger of the LORD burned against this land, and He brings every curse written in this book (the Torah) against them. Is God good?
Gen 19:24; Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,
Gen 19:25; and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
Gen 19:26; But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Gen 19:27; Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD;
Gen 19:28; and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.
Gen 19:29; Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.
The LORD rains down fire and brimstone of two entire cities, and just leaves them as smoking ash. Is God good?
2Sam 12:15 So Nathan went to his house. Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick.
2Sam 12:16 David therefore inquired of God for the child; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground.
2Sam 12:17 The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them.
2Sam 12:18 Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was still alive, we spoke to him and he did not listen to our voice. How then can we tell him that the child is dead, since he might do himself harm!"
God struck down an innocent baby, the baby itself did no sin. Is God good?
There are dozens more stories like this in the old testament. What happened to those who worshipped the golden calf?
What happened to Achan after the battle of Ai? Is God good? How about the flood, God nearly wipes out all mankind. Is God good?
1Sam16:14; Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.
God sent an evil spirit down to terrorize Saul, is God good?
What about the New Testament?
Acts 5:3; But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4; "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Acts 5:5; And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
Acts 5:6; The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
Acts 5:7; Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Acts 5:8; And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
Acts 5:9; Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."
Acts 5:10; And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
Acts 5:11; And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.
Ananias and Sapphira were struck down ( dead ) because they lied about the price of land. Is God good?
Acts 12:21; On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them.
Acts 12:22; The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!"
Acts 12:23; And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.
God struck Herod down (he died) because he did not give God glory. Is God good?
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Some people will be "tormented" and face the wrath of God. .. God Himself will watch as this happens. Is God good?
1Sam 15:2; "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
1Sam 15:3; 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
God told Saul to kill the Amalakites. Even the women and children. Is God good?
Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Deut 5:9; 'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
God will make the children and grandchildren pay for what their fathers did. Is God good?
Mic 5:15; "And I will execute vengeance in anger and wrath On the nations which have not obeyed."
Heb 12:29; for our God is a consuming fire.
I have given dozens of examples here, and there are dozens more I could have added. But at the end of the day... is God good?
Do we we serve a "good" God? The answer to that question determines who is God in your mind.
If our interpretation of "good" matches everything God does. Then God is good, and God is God in our lives.
If our interpretation of "good" is based on what we thing good is, and it doesn't agree with who/what the Bible says God is... now we have made ourselves a god
who is trying judge God. If it isn't "logical" that God would do these things according to our logic, then our logic is faulty.
============================================
Rev 19:11; And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Rev 19:12; His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
Rev 19:13; He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14; And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16; And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Is God good?
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Loyal
Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4; For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
Heb 4:5; and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
Heb 4:6; Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:11; Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
It may be finished, but it's still up to us to obey.
Moderator
Staff Member
yes, Brother
you know He is
Lo, then, goodness and severity of God -- upon those indeed who fell, severity; and upon thee, goodness, if thou mayest remain in the goodness, otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:22
For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:11
Bless you ....><>
Loyal
True what he came to accomplish, is FINISHED. But what did he accomplish?
Jesus came to fulfil both the law and the prophets, and to announce Himself as God's anointed King and firstborn Son.
He came to pay the price for sin and to seek and to save all who would believe on His name for He alone was God's acceptable ransom price for sin, and He alone could bear witness to God's truth.
He came to do the will of His Father and to demonstrate God's incredible love to humanity, by being a light to the darkened world so that all who believe on His name
- would not abide in darkness
- but receive the glorious light of His abundant life.
He came to proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God and to demonstrate God's unique standard of perfection.
He also came in the role of righteous judge and the divider of men.
John 3:3 & 5
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 18:19
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
John 15
As discussed, Jesus explains the vine, as born again souls we are grafted in, why? To bear fruit to bring Glory to God.
Jesus using the Vine, root & vine plus branches, cleasrly tells us if we do not abide, if we do not bear fruit we will wither, we will be 'cut out' collected together and burned.
It is a warning to all who are grafted into the vine, without Jesus we can do nothing.
The Peril of Not Progressing
Hebrews 6:1-8Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this we will do if God permits.
For it is impossible
for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Yes, they can fall away, fail to abide in the goodness of the vine, in doing so they will wither, they will be 'cut out' they will die, not only that...
It would then be impossible to be saved again, since they crucify the Son of God, cut him out due to their wickedness, there falling back into sin.
Once a saved soul goes back to sin, the world and the devil, they have sealed their destiny, cut off from Christ and eternal life for all eternity.
OSAS is false teaching, it is not in scripture. As we can see, saved souls can lost their salvation, as many of us have show with scripture in past and present threads.
Shalom
Active
The only game here is how all the non-OSAS believers are dancing around the accusation I have made of a non-OSAS belief.
It seems nobody is interested in defending non-OSAS with logic. You are all fine that the unsaved believe God is a wicked fool?