No man's land.

[KingJ]

I deal with what the Bible says about us, that sinful fallen beast that is inapplicable of right action without a moral law giver. That soul that is dead and need's to be saved from Gods wrath, do you suppose that God see's any good in us? No, our good deeds are but filthy rags, this view of human kind is a warped view, biased and unfair.

This is talking to our ability to be sufficiently righteous for God's presence. Not that our desire to repent, fight sin and do good works count for naught.

In the OT there was a divide in Hades. Those who repented and hated sin more then they liked it, were in Abraham's bosom. Not heaven, but not a mix of repentant sinner with unrepentant sinner. Or pedophile with little girl.

 

[KingJ]

Well no one's born saved, correct? So do children just skip the faith in Jesus part, because without faith in Jesus you stand condemned. Why would children be an exception, if they are, then there's a loop hole in Gods salvation through faith alone.

God is impartial Acts 10:34. If Adam and Eve were tested, everyone has to be tested, even children.

God will make a day for children. I believe Rev 20:10 has something to do with it. He is released on earth, after a period of being in an abyss, to tempt mankind for the last time. Why would God do this? If not to test those who have not yet been tested.

 

[KingJ]

This God in particular has never answered one prayer of mine, never helped me when the chips are down, never gave me comfort at the right time. It's as if he was never there, it was as if he just didn't care. I would sometimes think the reason for such a disconnection, was because no matter what he would do I would betray him.

But even though I thought that I still continued to believed in him. I still prayed and worshipped him, all to my own down fall. When I finally left I faced the thought of being sent to hell for rejecting the living God. I tell you I had year's of living with sheer panic, I couldn't do anything but sleep it off.

I couldn't imagine returning to beliefs that would do that to my mind, no, there's no hope for me ever returning.

You don't go to hell because you don't ''believe''. The belief needed to be a Christian is a belief in Jesus being Lord God almighty. A belief not possible without a revelation from God Matt 16:16-17, 1 Cor 12:3. A revelation only given when we pass a session of God's judgement of our heart and mind Jer 17:9-10. We only pass if we have come to God on His terms and conditions. Which are:

Psalm 51:17 A truthful repentance of sin.
Matt 16:24 Giving up all to follow Him.
Rom 12:9 A genuine love of what is good and hatred of what is evil.

So, we see that God's terms and conditions are not ridiculous. It is not a case of being in the right religion = heaven. It is a case of those who hate what is good going to hell. Anyone who hates what is evil at a depth of intent, catches God's eye and He pays that person a visit. As James 1:27 says 'religion undefiled' is to look after widows and orphans in need.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

No offence, but scripture is telling me that you need to better judge yourself.

 

[KingJ]

Having mental illness (Schizophrenia) is a serious fault that this particular God just wouldn't heal. I've had to live with it's destructive symptoms most of my life, but no matter how much faith I had I was left to battle the illness myself.

It is evident to me that this God was never to cure me because in the 14 year's of believing and following God I continued to be symptomatic and sick.

The illness in itself made it almost impossible to function, all I had was my faith in God that one day I'd be free from the brutal effects of schizophrenia, but like I said nothing ever got done.

However now I've turned my back on that hope, I function a whole lot better. Now I see the benefits of dealing with my illness my way, rather than wait on this God to come through for me.

My son has a head condition too. My best friend became semi brain damaged from a bike accident. A guy in my church has half his body paralyzed.

My son, says prayers of depth every night. My best friend cannot stay away from church. He helps out at soup kitchens twice a weak. Mows the churches lawn every weekend. Is on standby as the church handyman to assist any elderly with household problems. The other guy at the church, attends every one of the four weekly meetings. Sings and praises God at the top of his voice. They are both in daily suffering. Both financially strapped. Work long shifts for low pay. Both have terrible luck with finding a wife. Their problems are endless.

These guys are more dedicated to God then I am. God sees something in them that He does not see in me. They will forever be known as the person who suffered X and Y and yet remained faithful to God and to upholding what is good. God gave them 2 talents. They will repay God 10 x that. God gave me 5 talents. I have a lot of work to do to repay just those 5. Let's not be like the guy who got one talent and just moaned his whole life away.

We need to remember that for all eternity, life will be bliss. Rom 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I would argue that if this has truly happened, the person in question will be dead and in Hades.

Hades? You mean the place people who did not love God waited until The resurrection of Christ?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

How do you explain Num 14:29? Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me.

That was punishment for their disobedience . This has nothing to do with the length man lives OR the age of Accountability for a child.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

In this context ask yourself, who's responsible when it comes to true rehabilitation over your sin?

You or God?

If the job of overcoming your sin is up to you then this God is doing nothing. If the job of overcoming your sin is up to God then you can do nothing.

Both! We do our part through His strength. We can not sit around and expect God to do things He has told us to do.

Sounds like you prayed and then simply struggled with your lust in your own strength expecting God to just take it all away.

Your mind was consumed with this battle and you got no place.

Again what group of believers were you connected too?

 

[KingJ]

That was punishment for their disobedience . This has nothing to do with the length man lives OR the age of Accountability for a child.

I don't see how this has nothing to do with age of accountability? Please explain further if you don't mind.

What I read is God sparing all under 20. Even though they sinned as those not spared.

 

[KingJ]

Hades? You mean the place people who did not love God waited until The resurrection of Christ?

Yes and that is Hades. Only Abraham's bosom has been cleared.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I don't see how this has nothing to do with age of accountability? Please explain further if you don't mind.

What I read is God sparing all under 20. Even though they sinned as those not spared.

This is what I am seeing
1. Isa 7:15; "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.

2.judges 14:29
Says any one over the age 20. This means they were born along the way.

14:31 He now talks about their children He will let go in.

Surely children know right from wrong long before the age of 20.

Verse 29 He says Anyone
Verse 31 He says Chidren
Isa 7:15; "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.

Honestly KJ., I am not saying I have it figured out but I would NOT want to trust my Children to this 20 year old thought of Accountability.

The Until he knows ENOUGH TO REFUSE EVIL truly brings me to a much younger age of 20.
Blessings to you

 

[cmd73]

Sorry to hear what you have gone through. It sounds terrible.

But in defense of God, He made you, He died for you, He gave you His word, He has given people to talk to you, He has given you a working brain.....yet....??

God does step back, to allow for free will. If we draw near to Him, He will draw near to us James 4:8. Though we also need to grasp that He wants to see what we are made of. He is like a rich man looking for a bride who actually wants to be with Him.

Many Christians are suffering and feel abandoned by God. If we judge ourselves to not be in sin, we have to accept it as God's will and endure. One read of Job, paints that picture clearly.

I forget sometimes how real this God is to Christians and what they believe. Being saved by the death of someone is like a man who sees a drowing person, then goes and kills his son so he can throw the life raft out. Why doesn't he just cut out the middle man and throw out the life raft himself.

You also said I have the Bible, reading the Bible is what turned me off God, you see it's all that slaughtering of innocent children, and sending plagues and curses on the humans he supposed to love that causes me to object.

 

[cmd73]

This is talking to our ability to be sufficiently righteous for God's presence. Not that our desire to repent, fight sin and do good works count for naught.

In the OT there was a divide in Hades. Those who repented and hated sin more then they liked it, were in Abraham's bosom. Not heaven, but not a mix of repentant sinner with unrepentant sinner. Or pedophile with little girl.

John 15:5 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing

 

[KingJ]

1. I forget sometimes how real this God is to Christians and what they believe. 2. Being saved by the death of someone is like a man who sees a drowing person, then goes and kills his son so he can throw the life raft out. 3. Why doesn't he just cut out the middle man and throw out the life raft himself.

4. You also said I have the Bible, reading the Bible is what turned me off God, you see it's all that slaughtering of innocent children, and sending plagues and curses on the humans he supposed to love that causes me to object.

1. No person touched by Jesus can say He does not exist or is not God.

2. Please try better grasp the exact scenario. God wanted to make highly intelligent humans. As He did angels, but not quite like angels, a little beneath. Now He knows that a highly intelligent creation cannot be forced to serve Him. As that is wicked. So, how does He A. Give a highly intelligent creation, created in His image, true free will? and B. Get that highly intelligent creation to be with Him for eternity?

It has been God's goal from day one with humans, to have them as sons and daughters in His house.

So, A. is achieved by creating earth and using the devil. Create a perfect garden. Place a tree there. Put the devil with humans. Restrict him to only testing them. Maintain a balance of good and evil.

B. is achieved by meeting His own requirements. Grasping God is truly difficult. But what we can grasp is that God holds all, including Himself to account to uphold what is good and right. Now according to that code. It requires a punishment for all sin. Of course God can bridge that gap. As you say ''be the middle man''. But God does not do that because that is NOT who He is. God upholds what is right and good. An order to things. It is the reason we can say with utter confidence that there is true free will. ''Just because God can read our diary, does not mean He does''. We make mistaken assumptions of God. Think we grasp Him because we grasp dictionary definitions. Or the idea of a God...because we watch Superman and the Avengers.

Achieving B is only possible if the punishment for sin is met. Now God says to all humans. Any desirous of hating what is evil and clinging to what is good. Any desirous of true repentance from wickedness. Can be with Me. I have made a way.

3. He did. Jesus is God. It is one of the reasons the Jews wanted to crucify Him John 5:18.

4. Every instance of God's wrath can be explained to uphold / judge Him as being good. The wicked died quick deaths. Only saw God's wrath when their sin was 'full measure''. Plagues are an act of love. They increase in severity as disobedience tests God's patience. They only come as a last resort. God had a time limit on the Egyptians. They will come again in the tribulation, when God has another time limit. Children go straight to heaven. I hate all this generalizing. Please be specific in your examples.

 

[KingJ]

John 15:5 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing

Are you trying to make a Calvinistic type argument?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

@cmd73 Greetings,
Just wanted to see how things are going.

 

[cmd73]

Are you trying to make a Calvinistic type argument?

No, the Bible itself has conflicting opinions on doctrinal subjects.

 

[cmd73]

@cmd73 Greetings,
Just wanted to see how things are going.

Great! If I could learn to be more frugal then things would be even better.

 

[cmd73]

1. No person touched by Jesus can say He does not exist or is not God.

2. Please try better grasp the exact scenario. God wanted to make highly intelligent humans. As He did angels, but not quite like angels, a little beneath. Now He knows that a highly intelligent creation cannot be forced to serve Him. As that is wicked. So, how does He A. Give a highly intelligent creation, created in His image, true free will? and B. Get that highly intelligent creation to be with Him for eternity?

It has been God's goal from day one with humans, to have them as sons and daughters in His house.

So, A. is achieved by creating earth and using the devil. Create a perfect garden. Place a tree there. Put the devil with humans. Restrict him to only testing them. Maintain a balance of good and evil.

B. is achieved by meeting His own requirements. Grasping God is truly difficult. But what we can grasp is that God holds all, including Himself to account to uphold what is good and right. Now according to that code. It requires a punishment for all sin. Of course God can bridge that gap. As you say ''be the middle man''. But God does not do that because that is NOT who He is. God upholds what is right and good. An order to things. It is the reason we can say with utter confidence that there is true free will. ''Just because God can read our diary, does not mean He does''. We make mistaken assumptions of God. Think we grasp Him because we grasp dictionary definitions. Or the idea of a God...because we watch Superman and the Avengers.

Achieving B is only possible if the punishment for sin is met. Now God says to all humans. Any desirous of hating what is evil and clinging to what is good. Any desirous of true repentance from wickedness. Can be with Me. I have made a way.

3. He did. Jesus is God. It is one of the reasons the Jews wanted to crucify Him John 5:18.

4. Every instance of God's wrath can be explained to uphold / judge Him as being good. The wicked died quick deaths. Only saw God's wrath when their sin was 'full measure''. Plagues are an act of love. They increase in severity as disobedience tests God's patience. They only come as a last resort. God had a time limit on the Egyptians. They will come again in the tribulation, when God has another time limit. Children go straight to heaven. I hate all this generalizing. Please be specific in your examples.

All of this is wholly subjective, you rationalize the invisible as if you know it's real. Real thing's are demonstrated by object information not by subjective information. Can you do that? (Demonstrate God objectively)
Or is God just a personal experience that you believe gives him credulity.

Buddhist have their experience,
Hindus have their experience,
Muslim's have theirs and so on and so on. However I don't accept any of these as proofs to their specific claims equally.

It not just about your God it's all Gods in general, yet that does not leave me an Atheist. I am left to continue learning and expand my understanding why I am here.

 

[KingJ]

All of this is wholly subjective, you rationalize the invisible as if you know it's real. Real thing's are demonstrated by object information not by subjective information. Can you do that? (Demonstrate God objectively)
Or is God just a personal experience that you believe gives him credulity.

Buddhist have their experience,
Hindus have their experience,
Muslim's have theirs and so on and so on. However I don't accept any of these as proofs to their specific claims equally.

It not just about your God it's all Gods in general, yet that does not leave me an Atheist. I am left to continue learning and expand my understanding why I am here.

What must my God do to convince you?

What evidence are you looking for? Evidence of His existence or goodness?

If existence:
- Must He appear to you? That is favoritism. My God is impartial Acts 10:34.
- Must He jump when you say jump? He hates being tempted. He happens to be God of the universe.
- Will you willingly serve Him if you see Him? I don't think so. My God is not stupid. He created us with brains to grasp that. We just need to use them.
- Is all that exists not sufficient evidence?

If goodness:
- What will convince you that He is good?
- Is the love of a child not enough? Is the fact that He put your eyes inline with each other when He could have put one on your rear, not enough?
- Is the knowledge of Him laying His life down on the cross for you not enough? What must He do? Bring you a donut? You want God of the universe to bring you a donut? What do you want of Him?

He has said, He is eager to interact with us. He is knocking on the doors to our hearts. If anyone is sincerely seeking Him, they WILL find Him. You are not. Your post makes that pretty clear.

God is not dumb. You thinking he is does not help your cause. You are just brainwashing yourself. Deal with reality. Don't hide behind ''atheism''.

 

[cmd73]

What must my God do to convince you?

What evidence are you looking for? Evidence of His existence or goodness?

If existence:
- Must He appear to you? That is favoritism. My God is impartial Acts 10:34.
- Must He jump when you say jump? He hates being tempted. He happens to be God of the universe.
- Will you willingly serve Him if you see Him? I don't think so. My God is not stupid. He created us with brains to grasp that. We just need to use them.
- Is all that exists not sufficient evidence?

If goodness:
- What will convince you that He is good?
- Is the love of a child not enough? Is the fact that He put your eyes inline with each other when He could have put one on your rear, not enough?
- Is the knowledge of Him laying His life down on the cross for you not enough? What must He do? Bring you a donut? You want God of the universe to bring you a donut? What do you want of Him?

He has said, He is eager to interact with us. He is knocking on the doors to our hearts. If anyone is sincerely seeking Him, they WILL find Him. You are not. Your post makes that pretty clear.

God is not dumb. You thinking he is does not help your cause. You are just brainwashing yourself. Deal with reality. Don't hide behind ''atheism''.

If God wanted to be known he would just be known to all of us, it wouldn't be contingent on blind faith. We wouldn't have to debate and bicker about him, we wouldn't have to join some church, or read ancient books that give us dated information.
Religion has had thousands of years to established grounded facts about God that can be tested and proven unfalsifiable, but they have failed to do so this far.