Mathew 24

[Dave M]

this chapter speaks of Jesus second coming, some key versus in here I would like thoughts on. As this chapter is really what makes me "think" that the rapture and the second comming happen at the same time. I do not hold firm on any position I do hold firm on watching for Jesus and living for him until he comes.


Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So it sounds like all heaven is getting cleared out on Jesus return, so the question is what are the four winds ???
- could that be the rapture on earth when he is also gathering his elect at his second coming???


Matthew 24:37
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
- so what can we learn from Noah to help us understand the second coming??
Noah did not go into the ark until the flood started, but he was saved from the flood, that does not really help much understanding the timing of the rapture though?

Matthew 24:40 ,41
40 Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.…
- Now this is what makes me think the second coming and the rapture take place at the same time. So on Jesus return believers are definitely getting rapture, now this could be the believers that came to Christ during the tribulation or it could be all believers that went through tribulation
I am not sure, would love to here some thoughts on this.

Matthew 24:22
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
- it says the days are cut short for the sake of the elect, to me that says the elect are going to be going through tribulation, but for there sake the days are going to be cut short versus if the elect were gone (pre-trip) they would not be cutting the days short.


Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
- interesting suggesting we have to endure to the end, I can only think the end means until Jesus returns his second coming

Matthew 24:15
“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
- I can not help but wonder if the saints have been raptured away as the pre-trib suggest why is giving his saints warning sighns, then again it could be for the saints that come to Christ during the tribulation



I lean more towards the rapture being at the time of Jesus but dont have a cement position on it yet

 

[Lily Miller]

There are some other verses I would like to suggest you look at,

Matthew 24:29-31
"29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
*this to me says that Jesus will come after we Christians have endured the Tribulation, we will have to go through it.
Here also,
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
"16 For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

And finally I have this last one,

Acts 14:22
"22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must go through much tribulation to even into the kingdom of God."
*I believe that we must go through Tribulation to get to meet Jesus, and I also believe that the rapture and Jesus coming back happen at the same time as well.

Just some thoughts of mine,

Peace and Blessings, Lily

 

[Bendito]

There are some other verses I would like to suggest you look at,

Matthew 24:29-31
"29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
*this to me says that Jesus will come after we Christians have endured the Tribulation, we will have to go through it.
Here also,
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
"16 For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

And finally I have this last one,

Acts 14:22
"22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must go through much tribulation to even into the kingdom of God."
*I believe that we must go through Tribulation to get to meet Jesus, and I also believe that the rapture and Jesus coming back happen at the same time as well.

Just some thoughts of mine,

Peace and Blessings, Lily

I strongly believe in a pretrib rapture myself. Verses like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Did you notice? At this point His feet do not touch the Earth, we meet Him in the Air...This is the rapture of the bride. The believing church. The rest, I believe will go through the tribulation to be gathered together when Jesus actually returns with His feet touching the Earth. Many people tend to overlap the two events. The verses you quoted do indeed refer to His second coming, and yes there will be Christians on the earth in those days. The ones who were not raptured and also those who become Christians during the tribulation.
I'm not saying you're wrong...just sharing the way I see the Word.

 

[Lily Miller]

I strongly believe in a pretrib rapture myself. Verses like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Did you notice? At this point His feet do not touch the Earth, we meet Him in the Air...This is the rapture of the bride. The believing church. The rest, I believe will go through the tribulation to be gathered together when Jesus actually returns with His feet touching the Earth. Many people tend to overlap the two events. The verses you quoted do indeed refer to His second coming, and yes there will be Christians on the earth in those days. The ones who were not raptured and also those who become Christians during the tribulation.
I'm not saying you're wrong...just sharing the way I see the Word.

I'm sorry but the verse in Thessalonians is not supporting a pretrib rapture.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
"1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction, 4 He will oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God."

And this,
Matthew 24:4-8
"4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you're not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains."
Daniel 9:25-27
"25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens' and sixty-two 'sevens'. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end and desolation's have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven'. In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
Daniel 12:11-12
"11 From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days."

The tribulation happens before, then the rapture and the second coming of Christ happen. This is the order of the two events, it is clearly written that this is the order.

 

[Bendito]

I'm sorry but the verse in Thessalonians is not supporting a pretrib rapture.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
"1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction, 4 He will oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God."

And this,
Matthew 24:4-8
"4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you're not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains."
Daniel 9:25-27
"25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens' and sixty-two 'sevens'. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end and desolation's have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven'. In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
Daniel 12:11-12
"11 From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days."

The tribulation happens before, then the rapture and the second coming of Christ happen. This is the order of the two events, it is clearly written that this is the order.

Look...The Bride is caught up. In the air where Jesus is.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (CJB)
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise; 17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So encourage each other with these words.


The Christians are gathered together on the Earth. Where Jesus is.

Mark 13:24-26 (CJB)

24 In those days, after that trouble,

the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.

What we have here, dear lady, is two separate events. The rapture, which, by the way, nobody sees but those caught up, and the second which was seen and mourned by the whole world.


So here's the thing....Christians have been fighting over this very thing, these two events for the last two thousand years, with no resolution, or agreement. Let's you and I, show them up. Lets agree that the important thing is to live ready to go with Him, whether it be two minutes from now, or seven years from now.

 

[Lily Miller]

Look...The Bride is caught up. In the air where Jesus is.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (CJB)
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise; 17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So encourage each other with these words.


The Christians are gathered together on the Earth. Where Jesus is.

Mark 13:24-26 (CJB)

24 In those days, after that trouble,

the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.

What we have here, dear lady, is two separate events. The rapture, which, by the way, nobody sees but those caught up, and the second which was seen and mourned by the whole world.


So here's the thing....Christians have been fighting over this very thing, these two events for the last two thousand years, with no resolution, or agreement. Let's you and I, show them up. Lets agree that the important thing is to live ready to go with Him, whether it be two minutes from now, or seven years from now.

I'm not trying to argue with you, all I am saying is that, to me at least, the rapture happens when Christ comes back, and not before that, and Christ comes back after the Tribulation, that's just my opinion. Based off of what is said in the Bible, there are more verses that support a post-trib rapture then a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Dave M]

Let's you and I, show them up. Lets agree that the important thing is to live ready to go with

Praise the Lord Amen on that. !!!

I will add to the discussion that all through the bible God has saved his people from many trials and tribulations so that is also very important to recognize IMO

 

[Bendito]

I'm not trying to argue with you, all I am saying is that, to me at least, the rapture happens when Christ comes back, and not before that, and Christ comes back after the Tribulation, that's just my opinion. Based off of what is said in the Bible, there are more verses that support a post-trib rapture then a pre-trib rapture.

LOL I understand that you are not trying to argue...My point was 'let's not'. If I may though... Jesus did say, “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation. If we know the time the tribulation starts, we can time it almost down to the minute when He'll return....which would negate the above verse.

 

[Bendito]

LOL I understand that you are not trying to argue...My point was 'let's not'. If I may though... Jesus did say, “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation. If we know the time the tribulation starts, we can time it almost down to the minute when He'll return....which would negate the above verse.

To add to the above....We do not know the time of the Rapture, the catching up of the bride, and God does not really want us to. If we knew the time of the rapture we could live like hell, then two weeks before the rapture we could get ready....But God wants us to live ready....Which is why I suggested we live as though the rapture is two minutes from now....¿entiende?

 

[Lily Miller]

It is okay for us to believe two different things. I agree with you that we don't know what time it will come, but we need to be listening to Jesus when that day comes. We cannot simply just do whatever we want, one must listen to the words Jesus spoke.

 

[Dave M]

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

this is a most excellent point, and one that I have not considered before. Because once the tribulation comes we have a pretty good understanding of when Christ will return. thank you brother.

 

[Dave M]

LOL I understand that you are not trying to argue...My point was 'let's not'. If I may though... Jesus did say, “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation. If we know the time the tribulation starts, we can time it almost down to the minute when He'll return....which would negate the above verse.

yes doesn't it suggest in the bible that Jesus comes after 7 years of tribulation?? or 3.5 years after the desolation of the Temple??

 

[Bendito]

yes doesn't it suggest in the bible that Jesus comes after 7 years of tribulation?? or 3.5 years after the desolation of the Temple??

Yup it does....There is the 'rapture' then the revealing of the man of sin, the seven years tribulation then the return of Jesus. At the 'rapture' the bride meets Jesus in the air. His feet do not touch the ground...After the tribulation period Jesus returns, His feet touch the ground and He gathers all of His followers together with Him....at that time, there is no "in the air". Two separate events.

 

[Dave M]

Yup it does....There is the 'rapture' then the revealing of the man of sin, the seven years tribulation then the return of Jesus. At the 'rapture' the bride meets Jesus in the air. His feet do not touch the ground...After the tribulation period Jesus returns, His feet touch the ground and He gathers all of His followers together with Him....at that time, there is no "in the air". Two separate events.

with that in mind Mathew 24 is not about the second coming of Christ when he touches the earth, because we can actually have a good idea about when he is coming. Mathew 24 is talking about the rapture, very interesting as I always thought Mathew 24 was when Jesus came back down to earth.

another point that keeps coming into my thoughts is God has saved his people from his judgement many times in the bible, and this is going to be the worst judgement he has ever leveled on earth. I am going to do some more digging. @Lily Miller would love your thoughts
@Bendito thanks for sharing brother

 

[Bendito]

with that in mind Mathew 24 is not about the second coming of Christ when he touches the earth, because we can actually have a good idea about when he is coming. Mathew 24 is talking about the rapture, very interesting as I always thought Mathew 24 was when Jesus came back down to earth.

another point that keeps coming into my thoughts is God has saved his people from his judgement many times in the bible, and this is going to be the worst judgement he has ever leveled on earth. I am going to do some more digging. @Lily Miller would love your thoughts
@Bendito thanks for sharing brother

Actually, Matt 24 speaks of both events...One needs to rely on the Holy Spirit to sort them out. I spent a lot of time on this many years ago and I'm sure of what I read. For example; when the Word uses the word 'come or comes' "27 For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east and fills the sky to the western horizon." thats when His feet touch the Earth.
The people of the Earth will see Him coming and will mourn. "30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn,[e] and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.[f] 31 He will send out his angels with a great shofar;[g] and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Thats when the followers of Jesus are gathered from the four corners of the Earth to join Him. But notice? When He comes, at that time, He comes with tens of thousands of His Saints on white horses....Yes, some of them are saints who have died along the way, but the rest are those who have been raptured. The Bride.

 

[Dave M]

this would mean that at the start of the 1,000 rule of Christ all believers will have gloried bodies and rule with him. But the people comming out of the tribulation that have there mortal bodies are all non believers at that time,

 

[Bendito]

this would mean that at the start of the 1,000 rule of Christ all believers will have gloried bodies and rule with him. But the people comming out of the tribulation that have there mortal bodies are all non believers at that time,

Well there are the 144,000 Jews who lead others to Jesus, and other people who turn to Him and refuse the mark. Also, as I've said before, at the rapture pretrib, not all 'Christians' are raptured...Those who have made themselves ready will go, but if one is not ready.....he'll have to wait.

 

[Dave M]

Well there are the 144,000 Jews who lead others to Jesus

this is during the tribulation I believe, I dont recall seeing this happening during the 1,000 rule??

Also, as I've said before, at the rapture pretrib, not all 'Christians' are raptured...Those who have made themselves ready will go, but if one is not ready.....he'll have to wait.

You know the parable of the bride and the virgins who forget the oil sure do seem to say exactly that

 

[Dave M]

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.


God has been sparing his saints his wrath through the whole bible, and according to the word this is going to be the worst wrath ever.

 

[Bendito]

this is during the tribulation I believe, I dont recall seeing this happening during the 1,000 rule??





You know the parable of the bride and the virgins who forget the oil sure do seem to say exactly that

Yup...The 144000 is during the trib....During the 1000 year reign...it looks like life as normal, minus the devils tempting mankind.
and yup again...."The bride has made herself ready" The ten virgins and many other scriptures point to the fact that the Bride is caught up but that is not all of the Christians. Only those who made themselves ready.