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Locust Army of Rev.9 NOT A Military Army

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Member
Right off the bat I'm going to say upfront, I do not hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture theory that began in 1830's Great Britain with John Nelson Darby, et al, and that was then pushed in the Americas by Cyrus Scofield's commissioned study Bible, nor by later pre-trib rapture writers like Hal Lindsey or Tim LaHaye.

Towards the latter part of Revelation 9 (i.e., Rev.9:16 forward), there is mention of a very large army appearing at the 6th Trumpet and 2nd Woe. Those of the Pre-trib Rapture theory especially have taught that means a large physical military army coming upon Israel, and not to worry because Christ will have already 'raptured' His Church off the earth by that time. That whole idea is a falsehood established by the pre-trib theorists to help 'support' their Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory. It is a scare tactic even, to make you want... and to expect... to be raptured prior to the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus warned of us.


What The Locust Army of Rev.9 Is Really About:

Firstly, one must properly understand the event flow of the last 3 Trumpet, Woe periods. With each one of those last 3 trumpets there is a Woe attached to each one of them. The 5th trumpet - 1st woe begins at the end of Rev.8 and continues half way into Rev.9. Then the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe occurs which is the time of the loosing of that "two hundred thousand thousand" locust army. The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe then continues all the way into Rev.11 and the time of God's two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days, and the Gentiles treading the court of the temple in Jerusalem for 42 months. And then the final 7th trumpet - 3rd last woe occurs after that period. That is the flow our Lord Jesus gave us with those last 3 trumpets with 3 woes.

The battle of Armageddon is aligned with the final 7th trumpet - 3rd woe of Rev.11. That is when all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son as written there.

So stop and think a moment about the timing of the previous 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, which begins at Rev.9:12 and continues through to Rev.11:14. That reveals the Armageddon event of Rev.16 is NOT on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing, but on the 7th trumpet - 3rd final woe timing.

So what is that "two hundred thousand thousand" locust army of Rev.9 on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe? It's certainly not millions of screaming Chinese soldiers.

The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is "great tribulation" timing! And it continues all the way up to the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe of Rev.11. That is the kind of time it will be on earth prior to all kingdoms becoming those of The Father and His Christ after that 7th trumpet - 3rd woe of Rev.11:14. It will be the time of "Peace and safety" that Apostle Paul foretold of in 1 Thessalonians 5 that the deceived on earth will saying, and then "sudden destruction" later comes upon them. The "great tribulation" per our Lord Jesus is to be a time of fake peace and safety for the deceived on earth, but a time of tribulation for the saints. This is why our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24 that we will hear of wars and rumours of wars but don't worry, but the end is not yet. It means as long we are hearing about war and seeing wars, then the time of "great tribulation" is not yet, for war will have ceased on earth for the "great tribulation" timing.

So again, if that "two hundred thousand thousand" army of Rev.9 is not a literal physical military army, what kind of army is it?

Part of the 'key' to understanding about the locusts and that army of Rev.9 is in the prophecy for the end our Heavenly Father gave us through His prophet Joel. In the Book of Joel we are shown God is bringing that great locust army in control upon the earth for the last days, and He gives us military style metaphors with it too, but it is not a military army. The locust symbol and military symbols He uses to show us 'how'... those world controllers work to gain control over the whole earth for the end.

Those locusts represent Satan's host working on earth to prepare whole world for their 'king', the coming Antichrist, to Jerusalem, setting himself up as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped (2 Thess.2). They represent the workers toward a "one world government", the system of the 1st beast kingdom of Rev.13 that Satan will be over during the "great tribulation" timing.

This is why those locusts are told in Rev.9 they cannot hurt any tree, nor any green thing, but only STING. The stinging can only be upon those who are NOT sealed with God's sealing we are also shown in that Rev.9 chapter. The sting itself is towards deception in falling away to worship their coming Antichrist in Jerusalem in place of God. The actual timing for that begins on that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe of Rev.9 when the four angels bound at Euphrates loose those locusts upon the earth for the tribulation (not Armageddon).

Will those locusts be behind the gathering of the great army out of the northern quarters that will come upon Israel for the final battle of Armageddon? Yes. That is specifically what the Rev.16 sixth vial timing is about, with the final 7th vial being the time when they will go upon Israel on the last day of this world. Thus the 7th vial timing also coincides with the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe timing on the last day. And that is when that battle of Armageddon will occur on earth, and will signal our Lord Jesus' return also.
 
Loyal
I'm not sure what this has to do with pre-trib? Many pre-tribbers don't believe this is necessarily a military army.

The two hundred million horsemen is Rev 9:16; is the 2nd woe.
The flying scorpions mentioned in Rev 9:1-12; is part of the 1st woe.

I tend to take a more literal view and a less figurative view of Revelation. It may be these things represent some earthly force, but it may be
that they are simply what the Bible says they are.

I personally don't believe any of the judgments, trumpets, bowls, peals of thunder or woes are for satan or the anti-Christ.
I believe they are from God, they will cause unbelievers to see the things in the Bible are true and some will repent because of them.
 
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Member
B-A-C
I believe also this is from God like all the trumpets its Gods punishment on the wicked.
If we will just take his word for what it says and not come up with some crazy idea that don't line up with scripture like the O P
For instance let us look at scriptures Rev:9:4-6 these couldn't hurt those that was sealed by God, but only hurt those that had not the seal so this was God in control. But where did they come from. Rev:9:2 The bottomless pit so spirits of devils (demons)
What did they cause to happen to men , that hurt so bad they seek death Rev:9:6 these men will seek death and shall not find it.
So the question is what is this?
Rev:9:20 This will be plagues according to scripture yet men will not repent.
Don't get me wrong I know Gods people will suffer to, but it will be from Satan not from our Lord.
 
Member
I'm not sure what this has to do with pre-trib? Many pre-tribbers don't believe this is necessarily a military army.

The two hundred million horsemen is Rev 9:16; is the 2nd woe.
The flying scorpions mentioned in Rev 9:1-12; is part of the 1st woe.

I tend to take a more literal view and a less figurative view of Revelation. It may be these things represent some earthly force, but it may be
that they are simply what the Bible says they are.

I personally don't believe any of the judgments, trumpets, bowls, peals of thunder or woes are for satan or the anti-Christ.
I believe they are from God, they will cause unbelievers to see the things in the Bible are true and some will repent because of them.
The scorpion is also used in the latter part of Rev.9 about the locusts, about their power being in their mouths, and with their tails. And when the locust metaphor is understood in conjunction with its matching metaphorical usage in the Book of Joel, Rev.9 begins to pull together in the mind. God often uses symbolic language, allegory, metaphor, when revealing a thing, and it's always about something real in His creation, thus a literal interpretation in many Bible Scriptures, especially a chapter like Rev.9, will completely miss His Message.

Many Post-trib believers have also read Hal Lindsey's early works like Late Great Planet Earth, where he helped plant ideas that the two hundred thousand thousand being a literal military army in association with Armageddon.
 
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Member
B-A-C
I believe also this is from God like all the trumpets its Gods punishment on the wicked.
If we will just take his word for what it says and not come up with some crazy idea that don't line up with scripture like the O P
For instance let us look at scriptures Rev:9:4-6 these couldn't hurt those that was sealed by God, but only hurt those that had not the seal so this was God in control.


What would be crazy is to think our Lord Jesus was revealing in Rev.9 literal locust monsters upon the earth, when He was using symbols to impart a very important warning for His saints at the end of this world.

Your statement in bold does not align with what that Rev.9 says about who those locusts are allowed to harm. The locusts are not allowed to hurt any green thing like it says, but only 'sting' those who do NOT have God's seal. It does not say they cannot hurt God's elect that do have God's sealing. The type of statement being made there is like an elimination of object, requiring us to think with if they cannot kill the non-sealed but only sting them, then who will they be allowed to kill? Have to eliminate the non-sealed like we're told the locusts cannot kill those, so who is left? Those 'sealed' by God.
 
Member
No hype what would be crazy to think I said literal locust monsters
Cause I never said that , but I guess you interpret people's replys, like you do scripture.
 
Member
No hype what would be crazy to think I said literal locust monsters
Cause I never said that , but I guess you interpret people's replys, like you do scripture.
I based that part of my response on what you said here:

"I tend to take a more literal view and a less figurative view of Revelation. It may be these things represent some earthly force, but it may be that they are simply what the Bible says they are."

The locust, scorpion, etc., in Rev.9 are being given as symbols, they are not meant literally. But what they represent is literal, and that's the difference. If the reader has a difficult time understanding symbolic language and allegory as used in God's Word, they will have a very difficult time understanding those parts of the Bible.

So the greater point is discovering per God's Word what that locust army represents for the last days, allowing God's Word to interpret Itself. By what God gave us through His prophet Joel, He has interpreted it for us already through Joel, but some would rather listen to pop fads from men (like popular books, etc.) instead of God in His Word.
 
Active

RJ

B-A-C
I believe also this is from God like all the trumpets its Gods punishment on the wicked.
If we will just take his word for what it says and not come up with some crazy idea that don't line up with scripture like the O P
For instance let us look at scriptures Rev:9:4-6 these couldn't hurt those that was sealed by God, but only hurt those that had not the seal so this was God in control. But where did they come from. Rev:9:2 The bottomless pit so spirits of devils (demons)
What did they cause to happen to men , that hurt so bad they seek death Rev:9:6 these men will seek death and shall not find it.
So the question is what is this?
Rev:9:20 This will be plagues according to scripture yet men will not repent.
Don't get me wrong I know Gods people will suffer to, but it will be from Satan not from our Lord.
When you say God's people, are you refering to true Born Again Christians?
 
Loyal
I suppose it comes down to a number of things. I don't have all the answers but...

If these locust/scorpions and 200million horsemen are somehow earthly armies, wouldn't the beast be controlling them? Isn't the beast
in charge of the earth, the economy and the military? Why would they be fighting against him?
If on the other hand these locust/scorpions and 200 million are from God it makes sense that they would be fighting against the beast and non-believers.
If they are from God, it seems unlikely to me that they would be earthly armies for many reasons, who would be the leader of this army for thing? (Jesus hasn't returned yet).
I picture them as spiritual perhaps even angelic beings. (indeed some of them are called angels).

Some think that the purpose of the tribulation is to "clean the unbelievers from the face of the earth". But I disagree.
Keep in mind that Armageddon happens at the end of the tribulation. ( Rev 14:20; ) So there will still be unbelievers left to fight then.
Also after Satan is released from the pit he has been in for 1,000 years he will raise another army that numbers like the sand of the sea ( Rev 20:8; ).
So there must still be unbelievers left even after the millennial reign. Of course Satan gets defeated in this war. But even after those two wars
it seems there will still be unbelievers outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

In Rev 9:15; and Rev 9:18; it seems a third of mankind of killed by these plagues. I find it unlikely that two thirds of the population during the tribulation
will be saved. It seems in Rev 6:8; that something will kill a 4th of mankind before we get to Rev 9.
So is it possible a 3rd of mankind dies, and then after this a 4th of the remainders die?

If the rapture is before the tribulation. There will be people saved during the tribulation, because Rev 7:14; says these are saved people that came out of the tribulation.
I personally believe many will get saved during the tribulation, but I doubt it will be the majority of population because Rev 9:20-21; and Rev 16:9-11; say men will not repent of their deeds.
If on the other hand no one gets saved during the tribulation, would this include believers waiting for "post" rapture?

Some believe because of Rev 20:4; that you if you do get saved during the tribulation, you will have to be beheaded in order to be saved.
Rev 16:2; and Rev 16:10; indicate that those particular (at least those two anyway) with only be applied to those who worship the beast and receive his mark.

Rev 14:11; says that anyone who receives the mark of the beast will be cast into the lake of fire to burn forever. Many theologians believe that you can not repent
of receiving the mark of the beast and God will not forgive those who do.

Some take Rev 7:2-3; to mean that the plagues will not affect believers on the earth. Some take this to mean that this only protects the 144,000 Jews.
Either way, apparently some people will be spared from these plagues.
 
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Member
I suppose it comes down to a number of things. I don't have all the answers but...

If these locust/scorpions and 200million horsemen are somehow earthly armies, wouldn't the beast be controlling them? Isn't the beast
in charge of the earth, the economy and the military? Why would they be fighting against him?
If on the other hand these locust/scorpions and 200 million are from God it makes sense that they would be fighting against the beast and non-believers.
If they are from God, it seems unlikely to me that they would be earthly armies for many reasons, who would be the leader of this army for thing? (Jesus hasn't returned yet).
I picture them as spiritual perhaps even angelic beings. (indeed some of them are called angels).
In Joel 2 is where God calls them His great army that He sends. But the picture He is giving there in Joel about that locust army is definitely not in the positive sense for His people nor anyone on earth at that time. It's important to remember that our Heavenly Father even uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious. And that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing is great tribulation timing, so it is not about the time of our Lord Jesus' coming later with His army of angels per Rev.19. A simple read through the Book of Joel helps clear up who those locusts represent, for God said there they represent "a nation" in Joel 1, which suggests a certain people working upon the earth to take complete power for the tribulation timing. By understanding the clue Apostle Paul gave us in 1 Thess.5 about the deceived saying, "Peace and safety" just prior to their "sudden destruction", it's pointing to how the locusts are going to have the majority of the world fooled into actually thinking world peace on earth has come like the globalists have been trying create for a couple of centuries now. It's the 'who is like the beast? who can make war with him' kind of timing (Rev.13).


Some think that the purpose of the tribulation is to "clean the unbelievers from the face of the earth". But I disagree.
Keep in mind that Armageddon happens at the end of the tribulation. ( Rev 14:20; ) So there will still be unbelievers left to fight then.
I agree. For the majority on earth will be deceived, and will embrace the "Peace and safety" idealism by the locusts, just as that embracing has already started among the majority of today's governments. That's the timing our Lord Jesus was pointing to when He revealed that as long as there is war, don't be troubled for that must be, but the end is not yet (Matt.24; Mark 13). That's suggesting that the very end, i.e., the tribulation timing, is going to be opposite of war, and instead a time of world peace, (though a fake peace used to deceive the world). That is the actual timing He was hinting at for us to be careful and watching, and Paul said to be sober (spiritually).

Also after Satan is released from the pit he has been in for 1,000 years he will raise another army that numbers like the sand of the sea ( Rev 20:8; ).
So there must still be unbelievers left even after the millennial reign. Of course Satan gets defeated in this war. But even after those two wars
it seems there will still be unbelievers outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.
Well, the Rev.20:8 event doesn't occur until 1,000 years after our Lord Jesus' second coming. Christ's Millennium reign with His elect priests and kings is the timing of the Rev.22:14-15 verses also, even though that is written in the 22nd chapter.


In Rev 9:15; and Rev 9:18; it seems a third of mankind of killed by these plagues. I find it unlikely that two thirds of the population during the tribulation
will be saved. It seems in Rev 6:8; that something will kill a 4th of mankind before we get to Rev 9.
So is it possible a 3rd of mankind dies, and then after this a 4th of the remainders die?
In reality, the killing there in Rev.9 is about 'spiritual death' by the locust army during the tribulation timing. That is the timing when the Antichrist will appear on earth setting himself up in Jerusalem to be worshiped in place of God (2 Thess.2; Rev.13:11 >). So if that is understood per Scripture about the end, then it shouldn't be that difficult to realize just who that locust army works for, and what kind of killing they will do upon the deceived. Because we're told in the first part of the Rev.9 chapter the locusts are not allowed to hurt any green thing, nor kill anyone NOT sealed with God's sealing, then for the deceived, what kind of death would they experience by falling to worship the Antichrist in place of God? A spiritual death to their soul. That's why per God's Word there are only 2 types of death, the death of one's flesh body, and then the death of one's spirit/soul. A person alive on this earth today can even impart death in this present world to their soul by rejecting Jesus Christ and instead worshiping another, putting their soul in a liable to perish condition at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign.

If the rapture is before the tribulation. There will be people saved during the tribulation, because Rev 7:14; says these are saved people that came out of the tribulation.
I personally believe many will get saved during the tribulation, but I doubt it will be the majority of population because Rev 9:20-21; and Rev 16:9-11; say men will not repent of their deeds.
If on the other hand no one gets saved during the tribulation, would this include believers waiting for "post" rapture?
I don't see God's Word pointing anywhere to a rapture of His Church prior to the "great tribulation" He warned us of for the very end of this world. Instead I see His and His Apostle's warnings for us to 'watch' and remain sober, and put on the whole armour of God in order to stand in the "evil day" (Eph.6; Matt.24; Mark 13). He even revealed to us that the first one 'taken' of Luke 17 is not to Him, but to wheresoever the eagles are gathered, as they will be like a dead carcase, showing they are gathered to the wrong one (Luke 17; Matt.24:28).

Per Romans 11, we know Israel in part has been blinded by God, so we know the majority of unbelieving Israel today (Jews) will remain in that blindness until Jesus appears. But for the rest of Israel that were not blinded, that became the remnant according to the election of grace, they are not to be blinded about these events in the last days. Because the "great multitude" of Rev.7 is about Gentile believers 'sealed' by God for the tribulation time, those will be not deceived either. But the majority of the rest of the world, will be deceived by the coming Antichrist in Jerusalem.

Some believe because of Rev 20:4; that you if you do get saved during the tribulation, you will have to be beheaded in order to be saved.
Rev 16:2; and Rev 16:10; indicate that those particular (at least those two anyway) with only be applied to those who worship the beast and receive his mark.
I believe there will be many of my Christian brethren deceived by the coming Antichrist, wrongly thinking he will be our Lord Jesus having returned, and will be proclaiming that "Peace and safety" along with the non-Christians that will be deceived. That is one of the applications of the Isaiah 54 parable about God's elect as the 'barren woman who's paps never gave suck', i.e., they remained without child in the spiritual sense, refusing to bow to the coming Antichrist.


Rev 14:11; says that anyone who receives the mark of the beast will be cast into the lake of fire to burn forever. Many theologians believe that you can not repent
of receiving the mark of the beast and God will not forgive those who do.
That passage in Rev.14 can be difficult, especially if its timings are not divided Biblically...

Rev.14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb":

That "wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation" is to occur on the last day of this present world, on the Day of The Lord. It will end the things of this present world 'suddenly' (per Isaiah and 2 Pet.3). But only the lake of fire a thousand years after that will destroy the spirits/souls of the wicked, which is the "second death". So that is pointing to the wicked alive on earth at the time of the Day of The Lord. What about the souls of the wicked that had already died? Notice that's not directly mentioning them in that Rev.14 passage.

Per the Luke 16 story of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man died and his spirit was carried to 'hell' where he suffered in torments. The Greek word for "torments" means a touchstone which was an ancient way the gold content in a piece of ore was measured, the touchstone struck across the gold ore to reveal how much gold was in it. The idea there is that the rich man did not measure up before God. And since his flesh body was buried, it had to mean his spirit/soul is what was in "torments". So I see that fire meaning the greatest emotional torment and separation from God that one can imagine. Yet I see the "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years being different, a literal fire of destruction from God Himself, for He is a consuming fire.

Thus with the above verse, I see it applying to the wicked at Christ's second coming and during His thousand years reign. But I see this latter Rev.14 verse being about the "lake of fire" event after Christ's thousand years reign...


11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Some take Rev 7:2-3; to mean that the plagues will not affect believers on the earth. Some take this to mean that this only protects the 144,000 Jews.
Either way, apparently some people will be spared from these plagues.
The Rev.7:1-3 verses are actually about the "four winds" being loosed upon the earth, which is about the 2 Pet.3:10 event on the Day of The Lord, i.e., God's consuming fire on the last day of this present world that will end this world. In that Rev.7 chapter, the four angels are told to hold back those four winds until God seals His servants. Only 144,000 out of all the tribes of Israel are sealed, but what about that "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 forward which represent believing Gentiles? Since John is shown those washed their robes with the Blood of The Lamb, having come out of tribulation, that means they too had to have been sealed for the tribulation, and went through it. Both of those two groups actually represent the elect of Christ's Church of both believing Israelite and believing Gentiles.

Sadly, that doesn't mean very many of Israel will remain faithful waiting and watching for Christ's return on the last day.
 

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