John 3:7

[Acts2:38]

I never intended this thread to digress from its main point.

So I resubmit my response to the OPer in post #63 in an effort to put this back on track.

 

[David1954]

Because Calvinists believe in that the "elect" (Christians) are ordained and chosen by God before they even existed, that there is no free will choice in the matter and they were saved before anything really had to be done.

Also, that since they are "elect" and ordained to be elect, that no matter what they do, they are always in a saved state. Those who are not ordained elect, no matter what they do, are always in a doomed state.

OSAS takes a form of this idea, and states that once you are saved, no matter what you do after, you will always be saved regardless if you never repent should one willfully begin down a dark path.

In all cases, whether they admit it or not, OSAS is usually tied to the idea that a Christian can NEVER fall no matter what they do regardless of what the bible says.

When a Christian falls away from God, they always make some excuse like "Oh, they never were TRULY a Christian in the first place".

Its actually quite similar to Calvinism and I would boldly claim OSAS is a branch off of that idea.

he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

5 Having predestinated us

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God

many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Acts2:38]

he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

5 Having predestinated us

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God

many are called, but few are chosen.

This wasnt what your thread was about. My post in #63 was more to the discussion of your posts point.

However, you misunderstand that.

Since Genesis Chapter 3, Jesus has been foretold about. He would set up a kingdom in which the many are called yet few are chosen. He also said many will go on the broad path that leads to destruction and few will find the narrow path that leads to life. Many proclaim to be christians "lord lord havent we prophesied in your name" but because they do not obey the gospel he will say "depart, I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness".

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 says two groups of people will suffer everlasting punishment. Those who know not and those who obey not. Those who obey not are those who were christians, but turned away. Just like Demas, and just like those described in Hebrews 6:4-6.

Calvinists and OSAS people are in a losing side argument and it is really not debatable considering the plethora of text of warnings to Christians (example Revelation ch 2-3)

 

[David1954]

This wasnt what your thread was about. My post in #63 was more to the discussion of your posts point.

However, you misunderstand that.

Since Genesis Chapter 3, Jesus has been foretold about. He would set up a kingdom in which the many are called yet few are chosen. He also said many will go on the broad path that leads to destruction and few will find the narrow path that leads to life. Many proclaim to be christians "lord lord havent we prophesied in your name" but because they do not obey the gospel he will say "depart, I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness".

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 says two groups of people will suffer everlasting punishment. Those who know not and those who obey not. Those who obey not are those who were christians, but turned away. Just like Demas, and just like those described in Hebrews 6:4-6.

Calvinists and OSAS people are in a losing side argument and it is really not debatable considering the plethora of text of warnings to Christians (example Revelation ch 2-3)

Scripture is instructive and encouraging to the Elect.

 

[David1954]

To state an absolute fact, churches of Christ are not protestant churches. If you had studied this subject as you say you have, you would have known this fact. Churches of Christ belong in the "restoration" category. Protestants are in the "reformation".

Protestants are considered "reformation" because in one way or another, they keep a base model of what Catholics taught. Thus, as reformation's definition dictates, they merely just "improve" upon an already faulty belief. Sure they speak truth in some areas. However, they still teach falsely in other areas.



You are wrong about Acts 8.

Only two times in the NT did the Holy Spirit descend upon people in this fashion, Acts 2 and 10.

Problem with the people who say you are saved ONLY with this method, is they forget Cornelius and his household and friends STILL had to be baptized into water.

Everyone in Acts 8 was also baptized into water.

John 3:7 :

"Born of water" - It was Peter himself who said to Cornelius (Acts 10) "can anyone forbid them water.... and he commanded them to be baptized"

The Holy Spirit was to do this because the Jews believed they were the only ones who would be chosen (See Peter's explanation in Acts 11). God had shown the Jews right before their eyes that gentiles were also chosen.

Peter had also said "baptism now saves us" right after saying that through water Noah and family was saved.

Paul agrees with Peter when he told Titus, "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,". Peter basically said the same thing in Acts 2:38 "be baptized...and you receive the Holy Spirit".


"and born of the Holy Spirit" (jn 3:7) This is what happens when you obey that which was commanded of us to become Christians.

Hear
Believe
repent
confess
be baptized
[insert receiving of Holy Spirit here as in effect following baptism through our obedience]
remain faithful

Peter and Paul said this
Titus 3:5/Romans 6:3-5
Acts 2:38/1 Peter 3:20-21


Lastly, you are taking Acts 8:16 out of context.
(NKJV)
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Facts:
1-They sent Peter and John to Samaria

2- The Samarians had already received the word of God before Peter and John came (see previous verses)
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

These are undeniable facts that you cannot disagree with. Now to the supposed discrepancy.

Peter and John came to Samaria to lay hands on them and give them miraculous gifts. Not to save them since they already were saved (verses 12-14).

So what you are propositioning, is that Peter and John came to "lay hands on" and "save" the Samarians through human means of "laying of hands".

This cannot be true. No one is taught to go around everywhere laying hands on people to save them. That is false and has no scriptural support.

What I see here, is that Peter and John came to lay hands and pass on miraculous gifts to the Samarians, who were ALREADY in a saved state aka Christians.

If we are saved by the laying of hands, then we are ALL doomed because there are no apostles alive that can do this for us. No, they were baptized in water just like the Ethiopian in the later part of Acts 8, and saved before Peter and John was sent. They merely were to receive miraculous gifts is all, by the laying of hands.

I agree with you that restoration "Christians" and reformation "Christians" merely just "improve" upon an already faulty belief.

 

[Acts2:38]

Scripture is instructive and encouraging to the Elect.

Theres no denying this.

 

[Acts2:38]

I agree with you that restoration "Christians" and reformation "Christians" merely just "improve" upon an already faulty belief.

I agree to half of this.

Restoration, as the definition would state, reverts back to the original form, just as it was suppose to be from the start. This is what ALL who broke from the Catholics should have done.

Reformation, as the definition would state, does not revert to the original. It merely just attempts to improve off of the already corrupted teachings the RCC had. They do not restore back to the original. They improve off the corrupted system. Which is all wrong.

In a nutshell...
Restoration = Good

Reformation = Bad

Anyway, I hope post #63 about addressing John 3:7 and what you said about Acts 2, 8, 10 were clear and understandable. I would be happy to address anything that might not have been clear or other concerns.

 

[PloughBoy]

I am sorry but you have 5 point Calvinism wrong very wrong. You are not free to live a sinful life but a very strict life. Most people who even call themselves Calvinist don’t even know what it is. Here I will use my language to snap shot it for you. First you must learn the language of “Calvinese” what we mean by the term “free will” pertaining to choosing God’s will and what we will. Next concerning OSAS. If you are really His, He will bring to Birth fully, By. Chastisement, discipline, as a Father to his child. Sanctification will occur, if you are a born from above son of God. This what the “P” means in Tulip 5 points “Perseverance of the Saints”. You cannot jump into Calvinism just looking at words and statements, you see the word “Total Depravity” you jump and think you know what that means, or “ Unconditional Election” or Limited Atonement, or “irrestible Grace” or Perserverance of the Saints”!
You have to take the time to learn read the scriptures in each term, dissect each word.
Some of these Calvinist are not real Calvinist, most are “Hyper Grace” calling them selves Calvinist. True Calvinist and it’s doctrine is very strict. Teaching the Holiness of God!
Before you judge learn the language of a true Calvinist. Then you judge. Read a good biography of “John Calvin” you will find out how short you come in your Christian walk. And John Calvin would be “Horrified” to even thing a movement was name after him.

50Nicodemus saith unto them (he that came to him before, being one of them), 51Doth our law judge a man, except it first hear from himself and know what he doeth? (John 7:50-51)ASV.

Institutes of the Christian Religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

 

[PloughBoy]

Note: Luther, Calvin and William Tyndale all spoke about the corruption would also spread more and more to all of the institutionalize churches even in the new reformed. But the common people of God must get the world of God. They made it possible to get it for our selves, that was the Goal, John Calvin said, you need no priest nor bishops “ for the Lord Jesus Christ is your Shepherd. The true Shepherd of His people and the Holy Spirit is your Guide! You need no man to teach you anything , just the “Holy Scriptures “ as your guide. And your “Sanctification” is your Goal! They line up at night firing big bore Muskets in to house . For preaching the Gospel day in and day. God had put the fear of “Jonah” in him. He never wanted to preach or teach. The fear of Jonah came upon him, and he said his knees went to “knocking”. He was so scared he stayed in Geneva! “Play the man Polycarp “!

 

[David1954]

I agree to half of this.

Restoration, as the definition would state, reverts back to the original form, just as it was suppose to be from the start. This is what ALL who broke from the Catholics should have done.

Reformation, as the definition would state, does not revert to the original. It merely just attempts to improve off of the already corrupted teachings the RCC had. They do not restore back to the original. They improve off the corrupted system. Which is all wrong.

In a nutshell...
Restoration = Good

Reformation = Bad

Anyway, I hope post #63 about addressing John 3:7 and what you said about Acts 2, 8, 10 were clear and understandable. I would be happy to address anything that might not have been clear or other concerns.

The Church of Christ does, what Protestants Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do, just merely claim they are doing something different.

 

[David1954]

Now we see in a mirror dimly, but when the perfect comes, face to face.

 

[PloughBoy]

There is only one and only one true “congregation” of God! All other congregations are instituted by man [a fallen corrupted creature] . And I do mean “ALL” they will not stand the Fire of God, The day will come and all works will be tested yet by fire, All of your congregations will not stand. Always talking about going back to the original so called churches, some of those churches was just as corrupted as the ones that are today. Why do you think Paul had to visit them, write to them. One sayI am of Paul another say I am of Apollo ...ff., One has taken his fathers wife, Judaism had slip in. Who has bewitch you. People getting drunk at the Lord’s table, shaming other believers, going to law against one another instead allowing yourselves to be cheated.
You all here, know your bibles, need I go on. There are only two kinds of congregations in the entire world. There are only two kinds of people in the world and you know this, why, because God your Father has reveal this unto you by His WORD. The Reformation was not bad, they were slaughtered r, [Martyrs] for your sakes that you may know the truth! They did not die in vain! John Wycliffe, John Hus, John Calvin, Luther, William Tyndale, “Foxe Book of Martyr’s”. Thousands and thousands of others died violent deaths that you might learn the truth for yourself. These where you brothers and sisters in Christ that love not their Lives until death.

11And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death. (Rev. 12:11).
What has happen to you, no warmth no sadness no pain no sorrow no kinship for your brothers and sisters who died violently so you are able to have a Bible in your hand. Yet you say, you know the Reformation! Look at “The Book” in your hands, The Book Your children hold on their hands. Are they fearing for their lives, are you fearing for your life! NO! Why? “The Reformation”! The Reformation was never about a New institution’s . The Reformer’s knew it would happen, they said: so let it happen! That you may know “The Truth”! For yourself!

 

[David1954]

There is only one and only one true “congregation” of God! All other congregations are instituted by man [a fallen corrupted creature] . And I do mean “ALL” they will not stand the Fire of God, The day will come and all works will be tested yet by fire, All of your congregations will not stand. Always talking about going back to the original so called churches, some of those churches was just as corrupted as the ones that are today. Why do you think Paul had to visit them, write to them. One sayI am of Paul another say I am of Apollo ...ff., One has taken his fathers wife, Judaism had slip in. Who has bewitch you. People getting drunk at the Lord’s table, shaming other believers, going to law against one another instead allowing yourselves to be cheated.
You all here, know your bibles, need I go on. There are only two kinds of congregations in the entire world. There are only two kinds of people in the world and you know this, why, because God your Father has reveal this unto you by His WORD. The Reformation was not bad, they were slaughtered r, [Martyrs] for your sakes that you may know the truth! They did not die in vain! John Wycliffe, John Hus, John Calvin, Luther, William Tyndale, “Foxe Book of Martyr’s”. Thousands and thousands of others died violent deaths that you might learn the truth for yourself. These where you brothers and sisters in Christ that love not their Lives until death.

11And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death. (Rev. 12:11).❤
What has happen to you, no warmth no sadness no pain no sorrow no kinship for your brothers and sisters who died violently so you are able to have a Bible in your hand. Yet you say, you know the Reformation! Look at “The Book” in your hands, The Book Your children hold on their hands. Are they fearing for their lives, are you fearing for your life! NO! Why? “The Reformation”! The Reformation was never about a New institution’s . The Reformer’s knew it would happen, they said: so let it happen! That you may know “The Truth”! For yourself!❤

You make many good points. Roman Catholics were killing the saints way before Luther was born.

 

[Acts2:38]

I am sorry but you have 5 point Calvinism wrong very wrong. You are not free to live a sinful life but a very strict life. Most people who even call themselves Calvinist don’t even know what it is. Here I will use my language to snap shot it for you. First you must learn the language of “Calvinese” what we mean by the term “free will” pertaining to choosing God’s will and what we will. Next concerning OSAS. If you are really His, He will bring to Birth fully, By. Chastisement, discipline, as a Father to his child. Sanctification will occur, if you are a born from above son of God. This what the “P” means in Tulip 5 points “Perseverance of the Saints”. You cannot jump into Calvinism just looking at words and statements, you see the word “Total Depravity” you jump and think you know what that means, or “ Unconditional Election” or Limited Atonement, or “irrestible Grace” or Perserverance of the Saints”!
You have to take the time to learn read the scriptures in each term, dissect each word.
Some of these Calvinist are not real Calvinist, most are “Hyper Grace” calling them selves Calvinist. True Calvinist and it’s doctrine is very strict. Teaching the Holiness of God!
Before you judge learn the language of a true Calvinist. Then you judge. Read a good biography of “John Calvin” you will find out how short you come in your Christian walk. And John Calvin would be “Horrified” to even thing a movement was name after him.

50Nicodemus saith unto them (he that came to him before, being one of them), 51Doth our law judge a man, except it first hear from himself and know what he doeth? (John 7:50-51)ASV.

Institutes of the Christian Religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

You assume too much my friend. I have not jumped into this without any knowledge. I have honestly read books and articles, not just against Calvinism, but also read their defending arguments. I compared these books and articles to scriptures and found Calvinism gravely wrong.

Flaws In Calvinism - Apologetics Press

John Calvin (1509-1564) was a French theologian during the Protestant Reformation whose system of Christian theology, primarily expressed in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, has exerted tremendous influence throughout the Christian world for nearly five centuries. The central tenets of...

www.apologeticspress.org

I even read those who kind of believe the doctrine in some points and disagree in others

John Calvin for Everyone

John Calvin for Everyone

www.johncalvinforeveryone.org

In all honesty, I cannot say I have jumped into this without knowledge as you say.

Calvin is quoted as saying things like:
“…it is plain that it comes to pass by God’s bidding that salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it…that he (God) does not indiscriminately adopt all into the hope of salvation but gives to some what he denies to others”

This is a false teaching. It is quite clear in scripture that ALL have a chance at salvation and that God "is not slack concerning" this promise of eternal life, "not willing that any should perish but that all should come unto repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)

Quote by Gene Taylor:

The five tenets of Calvinism are so tightly and logically knit together that if you accept one, you must accept them all. Conversely, if you deny one, you must deny them all.

• The child of God can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6; Acts 8:9-24). The Perseverance of the Saints is not a valid doctrine.
• If a child of God can fall from grace, then God's grace must not be irresistible so the doctrine of Irresistible Grace falls.
• And if God's grace is not irresistible, then a person must be free to choose whether he will accept that grace or not. So the doctrine of Unconditional Election falls.
• And if a person is free to make the good choice to accept God's grace, we cannot say that Christ died only for the elect. We must say, along with the apostle Paul (I Timothy 2:6), that He died for the sins of all people. So the doctrine of Limited Atonement collapses.
• And if a person can make a good choice, he must not be "wholly defiled in the all the faculties of soul and mind." Therefore, the doctrine of Total Hereditary Depravity falls.
• The whole system of Calvinism comes crashing to the ground when one applies the Truth of Scripture to it.

See also "Three Simple Scriptures," Phil Roberts, Plano Provoker, August 22, 1974

Lastly, I myself am not judging. Jesus said before "they have what judges them, the word...". I simply place scripture before people and tell them Calvinism is wrong, it cannot be defended, and it must be rebuked.

 

[Acts2:38]

The Church of Christ does, what Protestants Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do, just merely claim they are doing something different.

Each church of Christ is autonomous of all the others. If one should fall away, and they can and do, they cannot be lumped in as speaking for all churches of Christ's. If you have truly studied this and been with them, you'd know this.

Secondly, churches of Christ are not reformationists, they are restorationists.

Thirdly, I cannot recall nor find one ounce of evidence you bring to the table here. All I see are opinions laced with speculation and conjecture. You boldly claim in post #21 That you "inquire" and you "listen" stating basically you are seeking, yet I bring you scriptures (evidence), I bring articles which also have scripture explanations, and not once have you "listened". All your responses never even addressed my post refuting your thoughts on John 3:7 and Acts. You side step and hope that I would forget (my assumption since you never respond to it).

Then you have the audacity to claim you know more about the congregations I attend than I do myself, even after admitting that you just float around from place to place.

Friend, are you willing to answer post #63 ? That relates to your OP thread topic?

Will you bring evidence, or just opinions again?

We cannot proceed further into your OP topic if you are not willing to listen, discuss, and respond to responses made against your claim.

Even your OP claim lacks evidence. Just accusations without explanations nor evidence.

Have a great Lords day my friend. God willing, may we discuss further.

 

[David1954]

Each church of Christ is autonomous of all the others. If one should fall away, and they can and do, they cannot be lumped in as speaking for all churches of Christ's. If you have truly studied this and been with them, you'd know this.

Secondly, churches of Christ are not reformationists, they are restorationists.

Thirdly, I cannot recall nor find one ounce of evidence you bring to the table here. All I see are opinions laced with speculation and conjecture. You boldly claim in post #21 That you "inquire" and you "listen" stating basically you are seeking, yet I bring you scriptures (evidence), I bring articles which also have scripture explanations, and not once have you "listened". All your responses never even addressed my post refuting your thoughts on John 3:7 and Acts. You side step and hope that I would forget (my assumption since you never respond to it).

Then you have the audacity to claim you know more about the congregations I attend than I do myself, even after admitting that you just float around from place to place.

Friend, are you willing to answer post #63 ? That relates to your OP thread topic?

Will you bring evidence, or just opinions again?

We cannot proceed further into your OP topic if you are not willing to listen, discuss, and respond to responses made against your claim.

Even your OP claim lacks evidence. Just accusations without explanations nor evidence.

Have a great Lords day my friend. God willing, may we discuss further.

The Church of Christ does what every denomination does...pick a few verses that make them special.

 

[David1954]

The Church of Christ, and the Mormons, and the Jehovah's Witnesses have not had their eyes open, so invent nonsense from the Bible.

 

[Acts2:38]

The Church of Christ does what every denomination does...pick a few verses that make them special.

-We are all autonomous, no earthly head/head quarters or type conventions/meetings that set the standards for all like everyone else. (1 Corinthians 12)

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-Its Christ's church/kingdom and the bible gives no authority for any other names like baptist, methodist, or any such other names. (Matthew 16:18-19; Ephesians 1:22-23; Romans 16:16; Colossians 1:18)

What Is the Church of Christ?

The New Testament gives a clear picture of what the church was under the leadership of the Lord's apostles. The church's origin was divine; it continues to be subject to the authority of Christ. Should it not be the same today - simply, the church of Christ?

www.christiancourier.com

-We follow the plan the bible laid out for salvation. Everyone else stops before being baptized and thinks it unnecessary, regardless that it mentions baptism more times that the rest.

1. Hear the word - Romans 10:17, Matthew 7:24-27
2. Believe the word is true and believe in Jesus - Hebrews 11:6, Mark 16-15-16 (not faith only), James 2:24, John 12:42.
3. Repent of your sins and transgressions - Act 2:38, Acts 17:30-31, Luke 13:3.
4. Confess Jesus is the Son of God - Matthew 10:32-33, Acts 8:36-37.
5. Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and to place you in Christ so Jesus can add you to His church and translate you into the Kingdom of God:Acts 2:38, Acts 2:47, Colossians 1:12-14.
   • Purpose: Acts 2:38, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 10:48, John 3:5; Luke 7:30. Read 2 Corinthians 5:17 with Galatians 3:27.
   • Action: Romans 6:3-5, Acts 8:36-38, Mark 1:9-10, John 3:23.
   • Infants need not be baptized: Matthew 18:3, mark 10:13-15, Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 14:12.
6. Remain faithful until death - Revelation 2:10

1. Jesus' Baptism — Matthew 3:13-17
2. Day of Pentecost — Acts 2:22 and 36-47
3. Samaria — Acts 8:4-13
4. Ethiopian Eunuch — Acts 8:26-39
5. Paul(Saul) — Acts 9:1-20 and 22:6-16
6. Cornelius — Acts 101-48 and 11:1-18
7. Lydia — Acts 16:13-15
8. Many Corinthians — Acts 18:8
9. And the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16

All conversions done with baptism in water as taught.

-We dont add in silly man made doctrines like OSAS and faith only (protestant reform churches). Nor do we tell anyone to abstain from foods and marriage like the RCC.

(among many other silly doctrines not found in scripture)

Now, I really do not mind speaking about this, really. However, you continue to avoid Post #63 the latter half that dealt with your OP claim.

You can tell me the truth, I wont be hurt. Do you plan on discussing the issues you brought up and my reply to you?

If not, we can start another thread about your concern with churches of Christ.

Help me out here friend. I am trying to get your own thread back on track with the original point.

 

[David1954]

To state an absolute fact, churches of Christ are not protestant churches. If you had studied this subject as you say you have, you would have known this fact. Churches of Christ belong in the "restoration" category. Protestants are in the "reformation".

Protestants are considered "reformation" because in one way or another, they keep a base model of what Catholics taught. Thus, as reformation's definition dictates, they merely just "improve" upon an already faulty belief. Sure they speak truth in some areas. However, they still teach falsely in other areas.



You are wrong about Acts 8.

Only two times in the NT did the Holy Spirit descend upon people in this fashion, Acts 2 and 10.

Problem with the people who say you are saved ONLY with this method, is they forget Cornelius and his household and friends STILL had to be baptized into water.

Everyone in Acts 8 was also baptized into water.

John 3:7 :

"Born of water" - It was Peter himself who said to Cornelius (Acts 10) "can anyone forbid them water.... and he commanded them to be baptized"

The Holy Spirit was to do this because the Jews believed they were the only ones who would be chosen (See Peter's explanation in Acts 11). God had shown the Jews right before their eyes that gentiles were also chosen.

Peter had also said "baptism now saves us" right after saying that through water Noah and family was saved.

Paul agrees with Peter when he told Titus, "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,". Peter basically said the same thing in Acts 2:38 "be baptized...and you receive the Holy Spirit".


"and born of the Holy Spirit" (jn 3:7) This is what happens when you obey that which was commanded of us to become Christians.

Hear
Believe
repent
confess
be baptized
[insert receiving of Holy Spirit here as in effect following baptism through our obedience]
remain faithful

Peter and Paul said this
Titus 3:5/Romans 6:3-5
Acts 2:38/1 Peter 3:20-21


Lastly, you are taking Acts 8:16 out of context.
(NKJV)
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Facts:
1-They sent Peter and John to Samaria

2- The Samarians had already received the word of God before Peter and John came (see previous verses)
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

These are undeniable facts that you cannot disagree with. Now to the supposed discrepancy.

Peter and John came to Samaria to lay hands on them and give them miraculous gifts. Not to save them since they already were saved (verses 12-14).

So what you are propositioning, is that Peter and John came to "lay hands on" and "save" the Samarians through human means of "laying of hands".

This cannot be true. No one is taught to go around everywhere laying hands on people to save them. That is false and has no scriptural support.

What I see here, is that Peter and John came to lay hands and pass on miraculous gifts to the Samarians, who were ALREADY in a saved state aka Christians.

If we are saved by the laying of hands, then we are ALL doomed because there are no apostles alive that can do this for us. No, they were baptized in water just like the Ethiopian in the later part of Acts 8, and saved before Peter and John was sent. They merely were to receive miraculous gifts is all, by the laying of hands.

Acts 2. 8 and 10. Same thing. Saints are baptized in water, then the Holy Spirit. Sometimes in reverse order. Church of Christ is just one more Protestant denomination.

 

[David1954]

To state an absolute fact, churches of Christ are not protestant churches. If you had studied this subject as you say you have, you would have known this fact. Churches of Christ belong in the "restoration" category. Protestants are in the "reformation".

Protestants are considered "reformation" because in one way or another, they keep a base model of what Catholics taught. Thus, as reformation's definition dictates, they merely just "improve" upon an already faulty belief. Sure they speak truth in some areas. However, they still teach falsely in other areas.



You are wrong about Acts 8.

Only two times in the NT did the Holy Spirit descend upon people in this fashion, Acts 2 and 10.

Problem with the people who say you are saved ONLY with this method, is they forget Cornelius and his household and friends STILL had to be baptized into water.

Everyone in Acts 8 was also baptized into water.

John 3:7 :

"Born of water" - It was Peter himself who said to Cornelius (Acts 10) "can anyone forbid them water.... and he commanded them to be baptized"

The Holy Spirit was to do this because the Jews believed they were the only ones who would be chosen (See Peter's explanation in Acts 11). God had shown the Jews right before their eyes that gentiles were also chosen.

Peter had also said "baptism now saves us" right after saying that through water Noah and family was saved.

Paul agrees with Peter when he told Titus, "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,". Peter basically said the same thing in Acts 2:38 "be baptized...and you receive the Holy Spirit".


"and born of the Holy Spirit" (jn 3:7) This is what happens when you obey that which was commanded of us to become Christians.

Hear
Believe
repent
confess
be baptized
[insert receiving of Holy Spirit here as in effect following baptism through our obedience]
remain faithful

Peter and Paul said this
Titus 3:5/Romans 6:3-5
Acts 2:38/1 Peter 3:20-21


Lastly, you are taking Acts 8:16 out of context.
(NKJV)
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Facts:
1-They sent Peter and John to Samaria

2- The Samarians had already received the word of God before Peter and John came (see previous verses)
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

These are undeniable facts that you cannot disagree with. Now to the supposed discrepancy.

Peter and John came to Samaria to lay hands on them and give them miraculous gifts. Not to save them since they already were saved (verses 12-14).

So what you are propositioning, is that Peter and John came to "lay hands on" and "save" the Samarians through human means of "laying of hands".

This cannot be true. No one is taught to go around everywhere laying hands on people to save them. That is false and has no scriptural support.

What I see here, is that Peter and John came to lay hands and pass on miraculous gifts to the Samarians, who were ALREADY in a saved state aka Christians.

If we are saved by the laying of hands, then we are ALL doomed because there are no apostles alive that can do this for us. No, they were baptized in water just like the Ethiopian in the later part of Acts 8, and saved before Peter and John was sent. They merely were to receive miraculous gifts is all, by the laying of hands.

Now we see in a mirror dimly, but when completeness has come, face to face.