John 3:16 - What does it mean?

[brakelite]

Jesus rebuked them of failing only in one case. The one that needed much fasting and prayer.

I think its reasonable assumption that Judas did. They came all back rejoicing.

Actually there was 70 of them, not just the disciples.


Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

But none of these people we not born again yet...

So its still assumption who used Jesus name to do this. But basically they did it in group somehow or in pairs.
The point still remains that none of them were born again yet.

All the disciples had mixed reasons for following Jesus. And none of them comprhended what Jesus had come for until the time for Him to ascend back into heaven.
Acts 1:1 ¶ The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Much of their motivation for following Jesus was their hope for the emancipation of Israel from Rome, and their selfish hope that they themsleves could rule with Him in the future government. After 3 and 1/2 years they still believed this was the ultimate purpose of His coming and Messiahship; thus was their deep seated selfish attitudes brought about no doubt from the teachings of the rabbis who had taught them this falsehood for years.Judas would have been no different. Even more so, being the most selfish and materialistic of them all. Judas had numerous opportunities to sit at the feet of Jesus and hear Him and take His teachings to heart and be converted. He clearly never did, despite his inclusion in the twelve. Miracles such as casting out demons, or whatever are no evidence for salvation. In Revelation we are clearly taught that our enemy will also use miracles to deceive.
The only evidence for conversion is fruit. Judas displayed no fruit. Dont make the grave mistake of believing miracles are evidence for the presence of God, lest you also be deceived.

 

[Stickz]

Luke 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Luke 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Luke 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. Big deal, right? What was Jesus trying to prove to these two men? We all know that any unbeliever with a nice hat, and at least one good eye, can perform these kinds of miracles, right?

Luke 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

*****

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. How? Apparently, anyone could have done these things and claimed to have been the Son of God?

*****

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

*****

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

*****

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

I find it worth noting that even though the beast from the earth is foretold to be able to perform miracles of deception, such as bringing fire from the sky ( Revelation13:13 ), and most of us know that Jannes and Jambres were able to also bring about the first couple of plagues in a similar fashion to the way that Moses and Aaron did them in Egypt, these acts are not said to be acts that are done in Jesus' name. These acts ( those that were specifically named, anyway ) are also works of destruction, plagues. Not prophecy and not casting out devils.

 

[gdemoss]

I find it worth noting that even though the beast from the earth is foretold to be able to perform miracles of deception, such as bringing fire from the sky ( Revelation13:13 ), and most of us know that Jannes and Jambres were able to also bring about the first couple of plagues in a similar fashion to the way that Moses and Aaron did them in Egypt, these acts are not said to be acts that are done in Jesus' name. These acts ( those that were specifically named, anyway ) are also works of destruction, plagues. Not prophecy and not casting out devils.
[/COLOR]

Excellent point.

 

[brakelite]

Luke 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Luke 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Luke 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. Big deal, right? What was Jesus trying to prove to these two men? We all know that any unbeliever with a nice hat, and at least one good eye, can perform these kinds of miracles, right?

Luke 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

*****

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. How? Apparently, anyone could have done these things and claimed to have been the Son of God?

*****

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

*****

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

*****

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

I find it worth noting that even though the beast from the earth is foretold to be able to perform miracles of deception, such as bringing fire from the sky ( Revelation13:13 ), and most of us know that Jannes and Jambres were able to also bring about the first couple of plagues in a similar fashion to the way that Moses and Aaron did them in Egypt, these acts are not said to be acts that are done in Jesus' name. These acts ( those that were specifically named, anyway ) are also works of destruction, plagues. Not prophecy and not casting out devils.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Stickz]

brakelite

If you want to choose to believe that unbelievers can go around casting out demons and prophesying in Jesus' name, that's up to you, I'll not at all try to dissuade you; I thought that the scripture that I posted made for a pretty sound argument against even the possibility of that, though ...? Apparently not.

 

[agua]

Mat 7:21-23 NKJV "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (22) Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


Why do we assume the people crying "Lord Lord" actually did what they claimed. Jesus never knew them so isn't it possible they were lying or deceiving themselves? Compare them to the pretenders/fake healers of today maybe.

Just a thought.

 

[brakelite]

brakelite

If you want to choose to believe that unbelievers can go around casting out demons and prophesying in Jesus' name, that's up to you, I'll not at all try to dissuade you; I thought that the scripture that I posted made for a pretty sound argument against even the possibility of that, though ...? Apparently not.

Hi Stickz, we're not necessarily talking about unbelievers though are we. Judas believed all right, its just that he had the wrong expectations. He, like the other disciples, was looking forward to the emancipation of Israel from Roman rule, and the restoration of the theocracy. They all wanted to be Jesus' best mate in the new government. They all believed Jesus to be the Messiah, what they didn't understand was the role of the Messiah.
Where Judas went wrong more than the others was he wasn't willing to learn the truth. He had a one track mind, was utterly selfish, and by turning Jesus over top the authorities I believe was trying to force Jesus hand. Jesus was moving too slow thought Judas, the crowds were ready for the revolution, even the Pharisees saw the possibilities, except they were more interested in protecting there position. Last thing they wanted was Jesus instigating an insurrection and causing a war that they could well lose, or worst, causing a war that they could win. They would be out on their collective back-sides, so Caiaphas spoke for them all when he said....
John 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests And the Romans shall come.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

Barnes Notes: And the Romans shall come. They were then subject to the Romans — tributary and dependent. Whatever privileges they had they held at the will of the Roman emperor. They believed, or feigned to believe, that Jesus was intending to set up a temporal kingdom. As he claimed to be the Messiah, so they supposed, of course, that he designed to be a temporal prince, and they professed to believe that this claim was, in fact, hostility to the Roman emperor. They supposed that it would involve the nation in war if he was not arrested, and that the effect would be that they would be vanquished and destroyed. It was on this charge that they at last arraigned him before Pilate.

Judas I believe in his betrayal thought he was actually helping Jesus come to a decision that Judas thought He was procrastinating over. That is why when he realised Jesus was actually not even going to resist, he realised his mistake and tried to return the money.
I do not believe Judas betrayed Jesus as an enemy. He always considered himself a friend. A devil yes, but the heart is deceitful above all things.

As for miracles, consider the possibility that demons could come out of someone if they thought it to their advantage, whoever was doing the praying.

 

[Stickz]

Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

Mark 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? This suggests ( to me, anyway ) that even Satan couldn't/wouldn't cast himself out, and if that is the case, then why think that demons could/would come out on their own? Remember when the demons went into the herd of swine? They asked Jesus to send them into the herd of swine. Why didn't they just go, by their own power, wherever it was that they wanted to go? It was almost as though they couldn't. I do not pretend to know anything about Demonology, or the technical process of demons entering and taking over a body, I'm only going off of what I see in scripture. If anyone can shed some light on things here, please do.

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Mark 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

I do not see any reason, from anything that I have read from scripture, to believe that an unbeliever ( Satanist, Atheist, etc ... ) might be able to genuinely cast out demons or genuinely prophesy in Jesus' name. I'm sure that there have been many charlatans throughout time that have tricked people with very deceiving performances, but nothing that was truly genuine. Jesus proved that he was the Son of God through these same miraculous wonders. Without them, he would have just been another man making extraordinary claims, and no one would have believed him for long, despite his message.

I hold to my initial stand that the people being referred to in Matthew 7 were either lying, or they were people that had actually walked with the Lord for a while as believers but turned away from him, back to their iniquitous ways. And I know that for many of you, the second option isn't an option at all, but I listed it for the sake of thoroughness. If someone can provide other views, I would love to see them. But, for now, I see teaching that it doesn't take a true believer to perform miracles, in Jesus' name, as being detrimental to the church, and to the teachings of the Word of God.

 

[james g]

<DIR>Act 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. </DIR><DIR>Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. </DIR><DIR>Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? </DIR><DIR>Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. </DIR><DIR>Act 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. </DIR><DIR>Luk 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. </DIR>

 

[gdemoss]

Mat 7:21-23 NKJV "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (22) Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


Why do we assume the people crying "Lord Lord" actually did what they claimed. Jesus never knew them so isn't it possible they were lying or deceiving themselves? Compare them to the pretenders/fake healers of today maybe.

Just a thought.

I had never considered that view before. Interesting. Jesus doesn't call them liars but workers of iniquity. Of course that doesn't mean they were not lying. In this view they would be people coming to Jesus and acknowledging him as Lord and expecting to be able to get into the kingdom by lying about what they had done. Then he would deny them and call them lawless.....It seems as if it could be possible but I am more inclined to believe another explanation for this verse.



Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

He begins by speaking of people who will address him correctly as Lord but explains that that isn't enough to enter the kingdom, but those entering the kingdom 'must' do the will of the Father Heb 10:9. This statement addresses those who believe that mere mental assent to Christs' Lordship is enough to have life. As it can be seen they believe but it wasn't enough. The devils believe and tremble. Jesus says they must 'do' the will of the Father.

(22) Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

This group not only addresses him correctly but has also done good works that are worthy of praise and reward yet he rejects them. "I never knew you" he says. What does it mean to be known by Christ? 1 Cor 8:3 What does it mean to Love him? Jn 14:15 What does it mean to keep his commands? Heb 5:9. Ye workers of iniquity or you who practice lawlessness: But we are not under law??? Or are we? Gal 6:2

We also are known of Christ through our fellowship with him Phil 3:10 & Heb 12:4

In his will,

Gary

 

[jari]

We also are known of Christ through our fellowship with him

did they too have fellowship with Him? How come God says He never knew them?

 

[jari]

Mat 7:21-23 NKJV "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (22) Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


Why do we assume the people crying "Lord Lord" actually did what they claimed. Jesus never knew them so isn't it possible they were lying or deceiving themselves? Compare them to the pretenders/fake healers of today maybe.

Just a thought.

Consider these verses:

Matthew 7
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

First of all Jesus was talking about false prophets there. There was definetely something false about them I dont exactly know what that was. But considering how prophetizing is like it must have been false prophecies that they spoke out of their own heart and not from the Lord.
They also bear bad fruit.
But cast out devils.

what appears from the scripture is that they try to get in to Heaven by stating what they have done.
But God says that He never knew them wich means they were never born again although they used Jesus name to cast out devils.

that's the way i see it.

 

[agua]

(22) Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

This group not only addresses him correctly but has also done good works that are worthy of praise and reward yet he rejects them. "I never knew you" he says. What does it mean to be known by Christ? 1 Cor 8:3 What does it mean to Love him? Jn 14:15 What does it mean to keep his commands? Heb 5:9. Ye workers of iniquity or you who practice lawlessness: But we are not under law??? Or are we? Gal 6:2

We also are known of Christ through our fellowship with him Phil 3:10 & Heb 12:4

These people call Jesus Lord but it doesn't necessarily mean they have done the works they claim. I'm sure some modern prophets/healers actually believe they are healing/prophesying/casting out demons when in fact they are deceiving themselves. Some others do it intentionally to deceive and profit from it. They fall into the same category imo.

Benny Hinn for example. Do you think He believes Jesus is his Lord and also does the things he claims? Are the healings/casting out demons/prophecies real, and if not, is he deceiving himself or a charlatan?

 

[Stickz]

The fact that the people in Matthew 7:21-23 said, "Lord, Lord" doesn't mean that we can assume anything about their relationship with the Lord, according to the following verses.

Matthew 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Matthew 25:31-44
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luke 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Luke 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

So, how to interpret the verses from Matthew 7:21-23 should be pretty much narrowed down: Jesus says depart from me ye that work iniquity. If they were actually performing these miracles in Jesus' name, it could hardly be considered iniquity, unless as Jari noted earlier in the thread, that there is something wrong with trying to work to please the Lord. But, according to these verses in Luke, Jesus wants obedience.

Conclusion: The people in Matthew 7 have to have been lying; possibly even convinced themselves that the Lord was working through them in some small way. Woe unto those people who falsely claim to have the Lord working through them.

 

[jari]

Hi Stickz, please consider this...

The fact that the people in Matthew 7:21-23 said, "Lord, Lord" doesn't mean that we can assume anything about their relationship with the Lord, according to the following verses.


So, how to interpret the verses from Matthew 7:21-23 should be pretty much narrowed down: Jesus says depart from me ye that work iniquity. If they were actually performing these miracles in Jesus' name, it could hardly be considered iniquity, unless as Jari noted earlier in the thread, that there is something wrong with trying to work to please the Lord. But, according to these verses in Luke, Jesus wants obedience.

Conclusion: The people in Matthew 7 have to have been lying; possibly even convinced themselves that the Lord was working through them in some small way. Woe unto those people who falsely claim to have the Lord working through them.

I think we certainly can, and its not assumption. Did you not read my comment about how Lord tells them He "never knew them" ?

Same appears in the parable of the virgins:

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

And in other verses:

Luk 13:26-27 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. (27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Atleast three times Lord makes us example where He tells that He never knew them. Now what does that mean, God doesnt know them?

It's not about doing will foremost, its about being known to God. And thats the interesting part , how are you known to God? Doesnt He already know you because He is God almighty?

He doesnt know us until we are born again in spirit as His children.

And only then we are forgiven of our sins and can know His will for us.


That's the way I see it. and I'd really like to hear other thoughts about the part of God not knowing people.

 

[RJ]

Hi Stickz, please consider this...



I think we certainly can, and its not assumption. Did you not read my comment about how Lord tells them He "never knew them" ?

Same appears in the parable of the virgins:

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

And in other verses:

Luk 13:26-27 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. (27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Atleast three times Lord makes us example where He tells that He never knew them. Now what does that mean, God doesnt know them?

It's not about doing will foremost, its about being known to God. And thats the interesting part , how are you known to God? Doesnt He already know you because He is God almighty?

He doesnt know us until we are born again in spirit as His children.

And only then we are forgiven of our sins and can know His will for us.


That's the way I see it. and I'd really like to hear other thoughts about the part of God not knowing people.

So very true!

depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; or "of a lie", for they were deceitful workers, they professed what they did not from the heart believe; they said they were Christians, but were not, and now are found liars; they only attended on the word and ordinances in an hypocritical way, and trusted in, and depended upon, their outward profession of religion, and subjection to ordinances; and by so doing, instead of working righteousness, wrought iniquity; and so as they did not submit to Christ and his righteousness.

They will all say Lord, Lord we did this and we did that! But at their end, God will separate them as the sheep from the goats and the wheat from the chaff.....God will tell these non-beleivers...away from me you non-beleivers, you were never born again of my Spirit and I never knew you.

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:14

Of course God is omniscient but he doesn't know unbeleiver's as his "born of the spirit" children.

 

[Stickz]

Sorry, Jari, I had thought that someone was suggesting that because they called him, "Lord", that that was somehow an indication that they had been saved, and I was trying to show that both believers and unbelievers, according to scripture, can refer to Him as "Lord". The fact that they refer to Jesus as "Lord" in Matthew 7:21-23 tells us nothing about their salvation status. I've re-read the thread and think that I might have misunderstood what was being said though. My bad, sorry.

But, I still do not agree with you that the people in Matthew 7:21-23 were trying to "work" their way to Heaven and that is why He sent them away either. Think about it: If Jesus does not want people trying to "work" to please Him, why would He furnish the unbelieving with the powers to cast out demons and prophesy? That would be enabling, wouldn't it? I feel certain that there is enough scriptural evidence to support that unbelievers cannot cast out demons and prophesy in Jesus' name. These people were either lying, or they were fallen away from the Lord, which your belief doesn't allow for, so, that leaves lying. My conclusion is good for both sides.

In response to your asking about who God knows, Jari, what's wrong with the way gdemoss explains it?

gdemoss: "I never knew you" he says. What does it mean to be known by Christ? 1 Cor 8:3 What does it mean to Love him? Jn 14:15 What does it mean to keep his commands? Heb 5:9. Ye workers of iniquity or you who practice lawlessness: But we are not under law??? Or are we? Gal 6:2

We also are known of Christ through our fellowship with him Phil 3:10 & Heb 12:4

 

[gdemoss]

So, how to interpret the verses from Matthew 7:21-23 should be pretty much narrowed down: Jesus says depart from me ye that work iniquity. If they were actually performing these miracles in Jesus' name, it could hardly be considered iniquity, unless as Jari noted earlier in the thread, that there is something wrong with trying to work to please the Lord. But, according to these verses in Luke, Jesus wants obedience.

Conclusion: The people in Matthew 7 have to have been lying; possibly even convinced themselves that the Lord was working through them in some small way. Woe unto those people who falsely claim to have the Lord working through them.

I understand your perception of the verses in question. Let me ask some things for clarity. Might it be possible that they could have actually done the works that were spoken of but also not lived according to the law of Christ. Wouldn't this have made them workers of iniquity even though they did such good things? Though I bestow my body to be burned and have not charity, I am nothing. Consider also the churches in Revelation who had done good things but yet had things they needed to overcome if they were to be given to eat of the tree of life or avoid being hurt by second death or sit in his throne with him.

 

[gdemoss]

did they too have fellowship with Him? How come God says He never knew them?

I do not understand you.

 

[Donnie Ducati]

It means that God loves us so much that he was willing to take our place on the Cross Himself.

No need to get real deep.