Bill
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Yes, Jesus has made has opened the door for all mankind to enter heaven.
John 3-13 ??
- Thread starter Dave M
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Curtis -- your comment -- "The acid test to any true faith is you actually experience what it says that you have been given by God, and where you have been translated to."
So you believe that every single phrase / word / is to be taken as literal. For instance 'the throne of grace'. An actual , real throne. Rather than a 'figure of speech' -- something being 'like' something else.
In our spiritual life we approach God through prayer. We are not physically talking to Him as another man in the room. Or maybe -- when you do pray -- you picture in your mind a 'man' who you are talking to. But God is spirit - not physical. Jesus Christ was on this earth as a physical man, yes, but He Also was 'talking' with / to the Father in John 17.
You speak of 'true faith' -- Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. ....... vs 6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."
God , Himself, is an invisible entity. He's Spirit. He can't be visibly seen. We can't touch Him. We can't touch 'faith' or love or peace. They are non-tangibles. But we Do experience them. We can experience 'peace of heart'. We can't pick up a piece of 'love' or 'grace'. But we Can show love and extend 'grace' to another person. God extended His 'grace' to us --in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Giving us something we didn't deserve.
So you believe that every single phrase / word / is to be taken as literal. For instance 'the throne of grace'. An actual , real throne. Rather than a 'figure of speech' -- something being 'like' something else.
In our spiritual life we approach God through prayer. We are not physically talking to Him as another man in the room. Or maybe -- when you do pray -- you picture in your mind a 'man' who you are talking to. But God is spirit - not physical. Jesus Christ was on this earth as a physical man, yes, but He Also was 'talking' with / to the Father in John 17.
You speak of 'true faith' -- Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. ....... vs 6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."
God , Himself, is an invisible entity. He's Spirit. He can't be visibly seen. We can't touch Him. We can't touch 'faith' or love or peace. They are non-tangibles. But we Do experience them. We can experience 'peace of heart'. We can't pick up a piece of 'love' or 'grace'. But we Can show love and extend 'grace' to another person. God extended His 'grace' to us --in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Giving us something we didn't deserve.
B-A-C
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Maybe in some cases... we can... in a sense. You quoted Hebrews 11. What is faith in this chapter.
The evidence of something "not seen"... yes.
but yet....
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:30; By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31; By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
The faith is this chapter is almost evidenced by action... tangible action.
Heb 11:4; By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Heb 11:7; By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb 11:1; Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2; For by it the men of old gained approval.
Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Heb 11:8; By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Curtis
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As you have already quoted the verse that God "rewards" those who diligently seek him. (Heb 11:1) What kind of reward does the Lord give to those who seek him? It would be impossible to seek the kingdom of God without having the Word of God from which faith comes from. Jesus said......
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Notice: the person who really loves God are the ones who "keep his commandments". Commandments are made up of God's word. Jesus now tells us how he would love that person in return.
.... I will love him, and will manifest myself to him... A person who keeps God's word in him will be loved in return by Jesus manifesting himself to that person. the word "manifest" means to "take a cover off so what was once hidden is now seen"
We are told to run the race set before us "looking unto Jesus....." If you can not see him (Jesus) then how can a person run his race? If we can not see Jesus maybe we are not loving him as he said. Faith always sees the invisible realm as that is the only way to look at the things that are not seen.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Every single person who ever lived by faith always saw the invisible......
Speaking about Moses......
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Moses saw the invisible God by faith!!!
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth
These people were not born again, so we God's Church and body of Christ have God himself living on the inside so we have much much more than they ever had. When the Bible says,,,,"lay hold upon eternal life" that is something we can grasp, but not with our physical hands. When the scripture say "to taste and see that the Lord is good..." that is not something we taste with our physical senses, but we can actually taste!! Jesus kept saying when he was still living in a physical body, "These people have ears, but they can not hear, they have eyes, but they can not see, lest at anytime they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts......." Every person to whom Jesus spoke too heard his voice, and they all saw what he did, but Jesus was not referring to their physical senses. The heart (spirit) of man has senses just like the physical part of man. We have eyes in our head, but we also have eyes of the spiritual man that needs to be exercised or they will never be of any use to us.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Curtis -- Isaiah 26:3 "You will keep in perfect peace, him whose mind is steadfast, because he trusts in you." That is the reward being talked about. Inner peace.
Yes, we Are to obey His Word -- we won't know what His word says to us unless we read it. And there are those to translate That into our needing to keep the ten commandments. The Ten Commandments from the Old Testament have been adjusted to "We are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, and soul and to love our neighbor as ourselves". When we Do love the Lord our God with our being -- we will Want to do what He wants us to do. And God Does have a different 'road' for each person.
We love God because He first loved us and gave His life as a ransom for many. (a verse from memory). God loved us first.
Proverbs 3: 5 - 6 " Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths." Running our race -- God directing our path. We won't be visually seeing Jesus Christ. But God Will give us desires in certain areas. Maybe we'll feel led to go to beauty school and be a Christian witness to our customers. Maybe we'll be led to go to med school -- or a tech school -- be a Christian witness to other students / instructors.
There are those who feel led to literally be on their faces on their bed or floor seeking God's face. Well -- that's fine -- but then get back up and look for the job or fill out the application form. God's 'will' / plan for my life -- fill out the app -- get the schooling needed to go to the mission field. My sister and brother-in-law felt led to Brazil to start churches. There was a plan -- laid before them -- to follow. Steps to take in prep for going and then the actual 'job' on the mission field -- raising their kids -- their teaching -- a very complicated life that God had for them. In the process -- many people accepted Christ which was the Main goal -- churches were started. People matured in their faith. That would be the next goal. Training the people to pastor their own people was another goal.
Before they even Went over seas -- they were told to pastor a small church here in the states. Terry wanted to do camp ministry in Brazil also -- so he got experience - showed them that he actually Could develop a camp. That was part of their prep Before going over seas. They Still had to learn the Brazilian language. All of That was 'running their race' -- keeping their eyes focused on the 'race set before them'.
Our Long Range goal is Heaven -- the eternal life we'll have with God. We want everyone possible to be there with us in God's presence -- Forever.
Well -- all believers -- The Church --has the Holy Spirit living in us. The God part of the Godhead is in heaven.
And, yes, we Do have 'spiritual' eyes.
The more we read / study God's Word the more we grow spiritually and can understand more and more. But -- while here on earth -- no one will have all / complete knowledge.
Yes, we Are to obey His Word -- we won't know what His word says to us unless we read it. And there are those to translate That into our needing to keep the ten commandments. The Ten Commandments from the Old Testament have been adjusted to "We are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, and soul and to love our neighbor as ourselves". When we Do love the Lord our God with our being -- we will Want to do what He wants us to do. And God Does have a different 'road' for each person.
We love God because He first loved us and gave His life as a ransom for many. (a verse from memory). God loved us first.
Proverbs 3: 5 - 6 " Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths." Running our race -- God directing our path. We won't be visually seeing Jesus Christ. But God Will give us desires in certain areas. Maybe we'll feel led to go to beauty school and be a Christian witness to our customers. Maybe we'll be led to go to med school -- or a tech school -- be a Christian witness to other students / instructors.
There are those who feel led to literally be on their faces on their bed or floor seeking God's face. Well -- that's fine -- but then get back up and look for the job or fill out the application form. God's 'will' / plan for my life -- fill out the app -- get the schooling needed to go to the mission field. My sister and brother-in-law felt led to Brazil to start churches. There was a plan -- laid before them -- to follow. Steps to take in prep for going and then the actual 'job' on the mission field -- raising their kids -- their teaching -- a very complicated life that God had for them. In the process -- many people accepted Christ which was the Main goal -- churches were started. People matured in their faith. That would be the next goal. Training the people to pastor their own people was another goal.
Before they even Went over seas -- they were told to pastor a small church here in the states. Terry wanted to do camp ministry in Brazil also -- so he got experience - showed them that he actually Could develop a camp. That was part of their prep Before going over seas. They Still had to learn the Brazilian language. All of That was 'running their race' -- keeping their eyes focused on the 'race set before them'.
Our Long Range goal is Heaven -- the eternal life we'll have with God. We want everyone possible to be there with us in God's presence -- Forever.
Well -- all believers -- The Church --has the Holy Spirit living in us. The God part of the Godhead is in heaven.
And, yes, we Do have 'spiritual' eyes.
The more we read / study God's Word the more we grow spiritually and can understand more and more. But -- while here on earth -- no one will have all / complete knowledge.
amadeus2
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"And no man hath ascended up to [3rd] heaven, but he that came down from [3rd] heaven, even the Son of man which is in [2nd] heaven." John 3:13
I see the three heavens the three levels of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Most believers, like most the natural Israelites could not even stand long with at Heaven No. 1. (outer court) while only those in the priesthood could go past the 1st veil to Heaven No.2 (Holy Place) . Only one priest (the High Priest) of the priests could ever go past the 2nd veil to Heaven No. 3 (Most Holy Place or Holiest of Holies).
We (who could be a royal priesthood) have an advantage over those Israelites in that all of us have the potential to not only passing through the 1st veil, but also the 2nd. But the route to Heaven No. 2 and Heaven No. 3 is always through a Heaven No. 1. We, in spite of our advantage, find ourselves continually having to start over again as with our 1st repentance (lost our 1st love: Rev 2:4). To ever be face to face with God we must make it to Heaven No.3 where there is not and never has been any sin at all. Impossible right? For man alone it is! So we cannot walk that road alone.
Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48
This place of perfection with the Father is, if you can understand it, Third Heaven (behind the 2nd veil). All believers have made it by faith (belief) to 1st Heaven (although many leave regularly to sin again). They are unclean (in 1st Heaven), and they seldom stay long enough to allow themselves to be made into clean animals (dwellers in 2nd heaven).
Here we may also see type or shadows of the three heavens depicted in the three levels of the Ark Noah built under God’s direction [Genesis chapters 6-8]. Notice that unclean animals, clean animals along with people are saved? This connects up with the beast(s) in man and/or that man is a beast. [Many scriptures concerning man as a beast or man having beasts within himself..]
What does it take to enter into Third Heaven?
The unclean beast nature of a man must not only become a cleaned-up beast but completely killed (Prov. 9:1-2) to enter and remain in 3rd Heaven.
This is moving from faith to faith (belief to belief) [Rom 1:17], but the final step, I believe, is moving beyond believing to a real knowledge [the end of faith: I Peter 1:9], which means no longer seeing "through a glass darkly".
When anyone comes to God that first time and repents he immediately moves into 1st heaven. That is not found in some remote physical place. We can stay in this place of the saved unclean beast and move toward [or be moved toward] the 2nd heaven of the clean beasts. This is where seeing the difference between the unclean and clean beasts under the law given to Moses would be helpful for better understanding. Who moves to the 3rd heaven? This is the "face to face" of I Cor 13:12.
In his time even though Moses pleased God and became His friend, this was beyond him because he lacked what was not provided until Jesus paid a price and the Holy Ghost was poured out on all flesh on the day of Pentecost [Acts 2].
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Ex 33:20-23
That was where Moses was then, but where are we now?
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matt 11:11
Now we should all never be lower than 1st heaven although when we do sin willfully I believe that we are. 2nd heaven should be attained every day as we approach Him personally. I know I have been there. To get to 3rd heaven is what we all want to attain to for always. Has anyone done it before they died physically. Perhaps Paul...? Perhaps John...? Others....? God knows!
I see the three heavens the three levels of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Most believers, like most the natural Israelites could not even stand long with at Heaven No. 1. (outer court) while only those in the priesthood could go past the 1st veil to Heaven No.2 (Holy Place) . Only one priest (the High Priest) of the priests could ever go past the 2nd veil to Heaven No. 3 (Most Holy Place or Holiest of Holies).
We (who could be a royal priesthood) have an advantage over those Israelites in that all of us have the potential to not only passing through the 1st veil, but also the 2nd. But the route to Heaven No. 2 and Heaven No. 3 is always through a Heaven No. 1. We, in spite of our advantage, find ourselves continually having to start over again as with our 1st repentance (lost our 1st love: Rev 2:4). To ever be face to face with God we must make it to Heaven No.3 where there is not and never has been any sin at all. Impossible right? For man alone it is! So we cannot walk that road alone.
Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48
This place of perfection with the Father is, if you can understand it, Third Heaven (behind the 2nd veil). All believers have made it by faith (belief) to 1st Heaven (although many leave regularly to sin again). They are unclean (in 1st Heaven), and they seldom stay long enough to allow themselves to be made into clean animals (dwellers in 2nd heaven).
Here we may also see type or shadows of the three heavens depicted in the three levels of the Ark Noah built under God’s direction [Genesis chapters 6-8]. Notice that unclean animals, clean animals along with people are saved? This connects up with the beast(s) in man and/or that man is a beast. [Many scriptures concerning man as a beast or man having beasts within himself..]
What does it take to enter into Third Heaven?
The unclean beast nature of a man must not only become a cleaned-up beast but completely killed (Prov. 9:1-2) to enter and remain in 3rd Heaven.
This is moving from faith to faith (belief to belief) [Rom 1:17], but the final step, I believe, is moving beyond believing to a real knowledge [the end of faith: I Peter 1:9], which means no longer seeing "through a glass darkly".
When anyone comes to God that first time and repents he immediately moves into 1st heaven. That is not found in some remote physical place. We can stay in this place of the saved unclean beast and move toward [or be moved toward] the 2nd heaven of the clean beasts. This is where seeing the difference between the unclean and clean beasts under the law given to Moses would be helpful for better understanding. Who moves to the 3rd heaven? This is the "face to face" of I Cor 13:12.
In his time even though Moses pleased God and became His friend, this was beyond him because he lacked what was not provided until Jesus paid a price and the Holy Ghost was poured out on all flesh on the day of Pentecost [Acts 2].
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Ex 33:20-23
That was where Moses was then, but where are we now?
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matt 11:11
Now we should all never be lower than 1st heaven although when we do sin willfully I believe that we are. 2nd heaven should be attained every day as we approach Him personally. I know I have been there. To get to 3rd heaven is what we all want to attain to for always. Has anyone done it before they died physically. Perhaps Paul...? Perhaps John...? Others....? God knows!
