John 3-13 ??

[Sue D.]

"@Sue D."

Well then... how do you see heaven? What is heaven to you?
If you died today... where would you go? (don't just say heaven, describe the place as best you can).

Now I realize, none of us have been there yet, and we don't know everything about it. But you must have some idea
of what you think it is. As Hal Lindsey says... "we must go 'somewhere'".
A great many people believe in something called "soul sleep". You just 'sleep' in the grave until the resurrection. But even if this is the case, eventually you go somewhere else.

...or.... do we simply just return to the dust, and our spirit ceases to exist?

We don't have to debate or argue about it. I am just curious as to your perspective.

If I would die today or the rapture takes place -- there's a verse that says that being absent from this body is being immediately present with the Lord. I was just trying to find it. 11 Corinthians 5 talks about our earthly body / tent/ that becomes burdensome to us. And that "as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord..." At the moment of our salvation, the Holy Spirit came and indwelt us -- the sealing of the Holy Spirit -- until we are safe with Jesus Christ for ever.

And, you're right -- no one who's died has come back -- except, of course, Jesus Christ. He rose bodily with a glorified body.

And, then there are those who've had their 'near death experience'. Highly debatable.

The believers' 'hope' -- that which we're looking forward To --is being present with the Lord Jesus. Our body will be in the process of deteriorating. But the believer will be 'with Christ'. Where ever Christ is Is where we will be.

The alternative is being a non-believer -- according to Scripture -- Abraham's bosom still has a compartment where a person will be in torment. Waiting for final disposition in the lake of fire and brimstone.

The believers from the Old Testament were in a different part of Abraham's bosom -- I'm thinking that That was called Paradise. When Christ died on the cross, He went to Paradise to get those believers. And I've also heard it said that He also gave one last chance to those in 'torment' -- and maybe That is simply the RCC version of purgatory. And there are those who believe that life on this earth -- in This world -- Won't be our 'last chance' to accept Christ. It's like After the fact -- 'we' find out the Bible was really True and Now we'll accept it. But That isn't placing your faith in anything.

I don't believe God's Word teaches 'soul sleep'. Because That would not place the believer with Christ or in 'torment'.

Our spirit does not cease to exist. The non-believing world would like to Think that -- because then there would be no suffering to anticipate. Or that the fire in the lake of brimstone would quickly burn them up and they'd be non-existing fairly quickly.

At the time of resurrection -- we Will have our either glorified body (believers) or the body that we died in -- or what ever shape it was in when they died. That's one thing a born-again believer doesn't have to be concerned with.

The only place Scripture gives us a description of is the New Jerusalem -- in Revelation 21 or so.

And John 14:6 " In my house there are many mansion -- I am going to prepare for you. When He comes back for us -- He will have that prepared for us." yes, paraphrased.

So -- my perspective -- in a nut-shell.

 

[Dave M]

And, then there are those who've had their 'near death experience'. Highly debatable.

indeed it is especially when Paul said


2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[Curtis]

If the Bible is true, and it is, then why are we not experiencing the "reality" of being in Christ sitting in Heavenly places today?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

If we are not sitting in Heavenly places, then why is the Bible lying to us?

Are we just lying to our self's in NOT believing scripture? Who is right the Bible or us?

If I can not see, feel, hear, taste, or touch the Kingdom God said I have been translated into, does that make not true?

 

[Sue D.]

If the Bible is true, and it is, then why are we not experiencing the "reality" of being in Christ sitting in Heavenly places today?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

If we are not sitting in Heavenly places, then why is the Bible lying to us?

Are we just lying to our self's in NOT believing scripture? Who is right the Bible or us?

If I can not see, feel, hear, taste, or touch the Kingdom God said I have been translated into, does that make not true?

The Bible / God is Not lying to us.

There are things -- portions of Scripture that I Don't understand. And I'm trying, again, as I'm writing 'this' to understand more about what is Being said to us.

vs 1 "and you - us- He made alive -- who were dead in trespasses and sins.

Through the cross -- the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. We accept Christ as our Savior and we are made Spiritually Alive.
We came into this world physically alive, but spiritually no life.

vs 4 "But God , because of His great love - rich in mercy -- ...... made us alive together with Christ ------- He raised Jesus Christ from the dead and so We are Also 'raised from our former sins' -- we are given a New life In Christ -------- possibly a picture of baptism by immersion. What it's showing. The pastor places the professing believer completely under water. = we are 'dying' to our old life and then being raised up again -- 'with Christ' -- representing our New life as a believer.

And Eventually -- as believers -- we Will be sitting together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Positionally -- we Are with Christ Jesus upon our salvation.

And in the Future (ages to come) He Will be acknowledging us as His Heirs. He will be / is.

My NKJ reads "and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

You're putting a lot of emphasis on 'Heavenly' and then 'places in Christ Jesus'. As opposed to 'earthly'?

Through Salvation -- we have been 'raised up' --made Alive in Christ. We're still here on earth. We're not actually With Christ physically.

Right Now -- I'm very much here on earth -- as are you and every person in this world.

We won't be actually 'sitting in heavenly places' until we are Actually in "heaven" -- the New Jerusalem.

Col 3:1 Maybe it should read "Since" we be risen with Christ, we are to seek those things which are above -- Matthew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."

So -- what does That mean. How do we do that 'seeking'. What things are going to be added unto us?

A person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior -- we are Still here on earth -- growing to know more About Jesus Christ / God --- and , hopefully our lives will lead others to 'want what we have' -- our lives reflecting Jesus Christ.
And we're looking forward to being forever with Jesus Christ for all eternity.

Is any of 'this' making sense to You? Hope so.

 

[Curtis]

Col 3:1 Maybe it should read "Since" we be risen with Christ, we are to seek those things which are above

If the Bible tells us to seek those things that are above, it would very cruel to not be able to find, and acquire those things. The things that are above are not on this earth, so to be able to find those things you have to be "above" where those things are that we are suppose to seek!! This is why that scripture says........"if we be risen with Christ,...

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 

[Curtis]

Positionally -- we Are with Christ Jesus upon our salvation.

If we are in Christ it would be impossible to NOT be where he is!! We know that Jesus is sitting in Heaven on the right hand of God, which means we also are sitting there with him in him.
But that is not the only place Jesus is as he is also living on the inside of us on earth!! (2 Cor 13:5) Jesus is living in two places all at the same time. When Jesus walked upon this earth were was God the Father?
He was sitting upon his throne in Heaven, but that was not the only place he was, as he was also in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. God the Father was in two separate places at the same time.
Jesus said.......

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Not only was Jesus on earth, he was also in Heaven at the same time. It would be impossible for God the Father to be in Heaven without his Son as the Son lives in the Father, and Father lives inside the Son.
Only God can accomplish such a feat as that. But, wait a minute... Jesus said.........

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Not only is God "one" Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but the sons of God who we are.
All born again believers are not only sitting in Heaven on the right hand of God in Christ, but we also on earth with Christ in us!!!!

The question is do we believe this? No body can experience what he does not know, and nobody can experience that which he does not believe.

 

[Sue D.]

If the Bible tells us to seek those things that are above, it would very cruel to not be able to find, and acquire those things. The things that are above are not on this earth, so to be able to find those things you have to be "above" where those things are that we are suppose to seek!! This is why that scripture says........"if we be risen with Christ,...

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Curtis -- it isn't 'things' we are seeking -- it's getting to know God more -- "but seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you."

Colossians 3: 12 - 25 included in these verses is ' in all that we do, do unto God's glory. Seek to please God. What would Jesus Do in 'this' situation. What is our hearts' desire as a believer? To please / obey God's Word.

Seems that a question was raised about praying -- talking to God -- approaching the throne of grace -- I remember as a primary-aged girl -- going with a group of women to their prayer group. We all knelt in front of a chair -- our arms on the chair with our hands folded , eyes closed. Praying. Talk about hearing some wonderful, heart-felt praying / talking to God. Acknowledging who God was -- praising God -- asking for God's will -- petitioning to Him.

And parents who kneel with their kids beside their beds before getting into bed -- their nightly prayers to God.

And husbands and wives who kneel together beside their bed praying together before getting into bed. They are 'approaching the throne of grace' praying to God.

Myself -- lots of times I go out on our front porch and look up into the sky -- acknowledging Him -- He's Spirit -- but I picture in my mind as I'm sitting there what Jesus Christ Might look like. It's humbling. Knowing that He's WAY up there Way up beyond where we can see. He's 'up there' bridging the gap between myself and God the Father.

 

[Sue D.]

If we are in Christ it would be impossible to NOT be where he is!! We know that Jesus is sitting in Heaven on the right hand of God, which means we also are sitting there with him in him.
But that is not the only place Jesus is as he is also living on the inside of us on earth!! (2 Cor 13:5) Jesus is living in two places all at the same time. When Jesus walked upon this earth were was God the Father?
He was sitting upon his throne in Heaven, but that was not the only place he was, as he was also in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. God the Father was in two separate places at the same time.
Jesus said.......

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Not only was Jesus on earth, he was also in Heaven at the same time. It would be impossible for God the Father to be in Heaven without his Son as the Son lives in the Father, and Father lives inside the Son.
Only God can accomplish such a feat as that. But, wait a minute... Jesus said.........

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Not only is God "one" Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but the sons of God who we are.
All born again believers are not only sitting in Heaven on the right hand of God in Christ, but we also on earth with Christ in us!!!!

The question is do we believe this? No body can experience what he does not know, and nobody can experience that which he does not believe.

You're talking about the trinity / God head.

The Holy Spirit part of the Godhead is living within us as believers.

John 17 -- quite a chapter. Jesus Christ the Son talking with His Father in heaven.

Jesus Christ , the Son of God is the 2nd part of the Godhead.

It's referred to by some to be the 'mystery of the Godhead'. Immanuel = God with us. God is Spirit -- He took on the form of mankind -- as a man -- a Jewish man. Jesus the human who was born of Mary and Joseph. Joseph being recognized as his 'father' here on earth. Jesus was fully man and fully deity.

The fact that believers Are united through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit living within us. The unity of the trinity.

Brothers and sisters in Christ -- sons and daughters of God.

I'd agree with Everything you've said Except -- not sure about your comment -- "all born-again believers are not only sitting in heaven on the right hand of God In Christ, but we also on earth with Christ in us."

Jesus Christ is the only One with the honored position of sitting on the right hand of God the Father -- because He alone died on the cross for us and rose again for us. He was obedient to the Father.

When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior -- we Do become sons and daughters of God. But it is like sons and daughters born to their earthly father. It Almost sounds like you're saying that believers -- as sons and daughters of God -- are on equal basis With Jesus Christ the Son of God. We become brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

A few different translations...

John 3:13;
(AMPC) And yet no one has ever gone up to heaven, but there is One Who has come down from heaven--the Son of Man [Himself], Who is (dwells, has His home) in heaven.
(AMPC+) And yet no one has ever gone up to heaven, but there is One Who has come down from heaven--the Son of Man [Himself], N1Who is (dwells, has His home) in heaven.
(ASV) And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
(CSB) No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.
(ESV) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
(GNB) And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven."
(GW) No one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man, who came from heaven.
(HCSB) No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.
(KJV) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
(MKJV) And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
(MSG) "No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man.
(NAS77) "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.
(NASB) "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
(NIrV) "No one has ever gone into heaven except the One who came from heaven. He is the Son of Man.
(NIV) No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
(NLT) No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
(RV) And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.

To me... when Jesus said this. He was on the earth. He wasn't in heaven. King James and Modern King James phrase it
a little differently than other Bibles. But Jesus Himself said He had to leave and go back to the Father.

John 16:7; "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Now Jesus did ascend to heaven a little later.

Acts 1:9; And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10; And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

I am slowly coming to realize, that it seems in many cases, the reason we believe things differently, is because our Bible phrase things slightly differently.
It's much the same with this other verse.

Eph 2:6;
(AMPC) And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
(AMPC+) And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us N1joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
(ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:
(CSB) He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,
(ESV) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(GNB) In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world.
(GW) God has brought us back to life together with Christ Jesus and has given us a position in heaven with him.
(HCSB) Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens,
(KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(MKJV) and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
(MSG) Then he picked us up and set us down in highest heaven in company with Jesus, our Messiah.
(NAS77) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
(NASB) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(NIrV) God raised us up with Christ. He has seated us with him in his heavenly kingdom because we belong to Christ Jesus.
(NIV) And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
(NLT) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
(RV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:

Now I realize this can quickly get turned into a King James vs every other version. But we've already had that discussion recently.

To me.. the "heavenly places" is not heaven. If it was heaven. The Bible would simply say "heaven".
The heavenly places, heavenly realms, heavenly kingdom, are places that can exist on earth.

Part of the kingdom of heaven has come to earth.
Matt 6:10; 'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

In fact eventually the entire world will be included in this kingdom.
Rev 11:15; Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

For now.. there is still wickedness in some of the "heavenly places"

Eph 6:12; For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

So it is unlikely all heavenly places... are "in" heaven.

This is why I made the comment earlier, about the "earthly heaven" vs the "spiritual heaven".

Matt 11:12; "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 13:24; says the kingdom of heaven has both wheat and tares in it.

Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:25; "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.

The kingdom of heaven also has both good fish and bad fish in it.
Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.

Being in the heavenly realms or heavenly places, doesn't mean everything is finished and done and decided.

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

Just because we are in the heavenly places, doesn't mean some won't be removed.
In fact... one person was kicked out of the heavenly places.

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

 

[Curtis]

You're talking about the trinity / God head.

The Holy Spirit part of the Godhead is living within us as believers.

The Holy Spirit is not the only one living inside the believer. Jesus said that he, and his Father would come and dwell with the person who keeps his Word. We also know Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes he will live inside the believer for ever. So, we have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all dwelling inside the believer. Here we find the Apostle Paul warning the Church about people who would try and take them captive by believinlg things that are not of the Spirit of God.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Notice: in "Christ" dwells ALL of the fullness of the Godhead bodily!!!! Everything that God is in his fullness, the Godhead dwells in Christ!!!
But wait a minute, the next verse says....and ye are complete in him..... There is no way God can be anywhere without his Church being were he is in him!! Whether it is in Heaven, or on earth!!

 

[Curtis]

To me... when Jesus said this. He was on the earth. He wasn't in heaven

Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Everything Jesus said, and did was God the Father inside Jesus doing his works through his Son. If God the Father was in Heaven, and yes he was as Jesus prayed to his father in Heaven, yet at the exact same time his father was in Jesus while on earth. How can that be?

The only answer is.......

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus brought the kingdom of God to earth as it was inside him were his father dwelled.

We all just assume the kingdom of God is way in outer space somewhere. How can eternity dwell within the hearts of men when man has limit on his size, and eternity is endless? How can the Glory of God dwell within man when it is a world without end as it says here....

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

How can a man be filled with all the fullness of the Godhead when God fills eternity?

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

There is no way man's physical brain can comprehend these things as they are spiritual and not physical in nature.
The kingdom of God is not of this world, so we can not use the physical properties of this world to compare it to. In verses 18 19 it tells us .....


Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

I hear people all the time say, there is no way we can know depths of God as he is infinite, and we are finite. This scripture says contrary wise that we his Church can "comprehend" all the dept's of God, but this knowing is beyond "knowledge", it is way beyond human knowledge of any kind, but the heart of man can understand it because that is were God dwells in his kingdom.

 

[B-A-C]

There is no way man's physical brain can comprehend these things as they are spiritual and not physical in nature.
The kingdom of God is not of this world, so we can not use the physical properties of this world to compare it to.

For me... it will be both. I believe there is a spiritual "place". But I also believe there is a physical place we can see here on earth.
We are in parts of it. We can see it with our eyes sometimes. One day another part will come down out of heaven.
It will be physical also. It has physical measurements.

 

[Curtis]

For me... it will be both. I believe there is a spiritual "place". But I also believe there is a physical place we can see here on earth.
We are in parts of it. We can see it with our eyes sometimes. One day another part will come down out of heaven.
It will be physical also. It hassical measurements.

.
You are right...Jesus said to pray, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus also said it is the good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things. the Kingdom of God will come out of the heart of man and be manifested upon this earth.

 

[Sue D.]

How about 'this' -- John 16:5 "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, Where are You going?"

vs 7 "Nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not to you; but if i depart, I well send Him to you."

The 'Helper' being the Holy Spirit.

@ B-A-C -- your comments in #54 -- not sure what you're talking about. A 'spiritual place' -- heaven. The physical place Is here on earth. It's where we're living. So -- what parts are you talking about that sometimes we can see it with our eyes. And that one day another part will come down out of heaven.

The only part of anything that's going to come down from heaven -- parts of the trinity. The Holy Spirit has come to indwell each believer, but that's not something that can be seen visually. The effects OF the Holy Spirit indwelling us can be observed in our lives.

Jesus Christ will be coming down from the heavenlies in the future ---- what are the parts that sometimes we can see with our eyes.

Your comments have me confused.

 

[B-A-C]

@ B-A-C -- your comments in #54 -- not sure what you're talking about. A 'spiritual place' -- heaven. The physical place Is here on earth. It's where we're living. So -- what parts are you talking about that sometimes we can see it with our eyes. And that one day another part will come down out of heaven.

The only part of anything that's going to come down from heaven -- parts of the trinity. The Holy Spirit has come to indwell each believer, but that's not something that can be seen visually. The effects OF the Holy Spirit indwelling us can be observed in our lives.

Jesus Christ will be coming down from the heavenlies in the future ---- what are the parts that sometimes we can see with our eyes.

Your comments have me confused.

Rev 21:1; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:9; Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10; And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

This is a physical place. With physical measurements and made out of physical materials.

Rev 21:12; It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
Rev 21:13; There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
Rev 21:14; And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15; The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
Rev 21:16; The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
Rev 21:17; And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
Rev 21:18; The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
Rev 21:19; The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
Rev 21:20; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
Rev 21:21; And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
Rev 21:22; I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

The New Jersualem isn't here yet, in fact it never comes to "this" version of the earth.
It is on the "new" earth. There is no sea on that earth.

Isa 65:17; "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
Isa 66:22; "For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure.
2 Pet 3:13; But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Rev 21:1; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C ---- Okay -- John was talking about when he was being given -- by inspiration of God through the Holy Spirit -- the book of Revelation -- God was giving him information in the form of a vision -- he was writing down what he was seeing that would be happening in the future.

And, yes, the future 'heaven' Is the New Jerusalem -- it Will be brought down to what we know Now as the earth. This heaven and This earth Are only temporary. But it Is what God did originally create for us and what we are living in now. But there are no bits and pieces of 'heaven' that we can enjoy Now. There are times when people say -- 'this is a bit of heaven' meaning that something in their lives they are experiencing is really Great, Wonderful and it Feels like a little bit of heaven on earth. People in love or newly weds or very happily married people -- a little bit of heaven on earth.

There isn't any part of that future 'heaven' existing here on earth yet. The 'spiritual' part of Us is waiting for that future time to happen. The 'physical' part of us will die and eventually be resurrected.

And there Is also the supernatural realm of life -- the angels / demonic world that Is invisible. And That IS happening all around us. And in the Old Testament sometimes angels Did take on the form of people -- but we aren't going to know who 'they' are now -- if that even still happens. There Is the passage that says to beware of how we treat 'mankind' -- because the person we choose to shun Could be an angel in disguise. It's mainly an admonition to believers to be loving people even to the outwardly unlovable-looking people.

And any activity in the invisible realm Is just that invisible.

Your comments were sounding so Mysterious.

 

[Sue D.]

I suspect that there are lots of things in Scripture that we don't Fully understand but that we Want to understand. And there are those who believe that IF a person Truly , Really wants to 'know' everything, that we Can IF we 'simply' Strive to do so. That if we Really are 'rightly' dividing the Word of Truth -- then we Will be able to have all the Truth of Scripture. And that if we're All doing That, then we'll All be agreeing about Everything in Scripture. But it just doesn't work that way.

But keeping on picking and picking at portions of Scripture in order TO understand what Exactly being said -- we Might be spinning our wheels. We Don't have the mind of Christ / we never will. When God's Word doesn't make sense to us -- it's Our lack of understanding -- NOT a problem with God. God is the Only One with All-knowledge -- we won't ever be in that catagory.

@King J -- for some reason - you think that because God gave us a brain -- that That puts us on God's level or God on our level. That would be saying that God=Man. and NO.

 

[Curtis]

what are the parts that sometimes we can see with our eyes.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The Lord knew that a born again person or any person needed a "visual aid" in being able to understand, and to "see" the invisible things of the kingdom of God, and even of God himself. The physical world is a shadow of the eternal spiritual realm. We can see "invisible" things by looking at the physical things because they are very similar. God created some thing in the physical realm that we can see with our eyes that show us how God is in the spiritual realm. Do you know what that is?

 

[Curtis]

We Don't have the mind of Christ / we never will

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.